Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[Bill Howard]

-Caveat Lector-

I couldn't have said better myself. Illegal immigration is economic
suicide.
wlh
On Saturday, Dec 14, 2002, at 12:49 US/Pacific, thew wrote:


Of course I oppose illegal immigrants coming to the US primarily
because
of the environmental destruction caused by our immigration fueled
population explosion - but I certainly never called for capital
punishment
for illegal border crossers. Furthermore I don't blame poor immigrants
for trying to come here - I am more incensed over the corporations
that employ them at cheap wages thereby screwing native Americans
by keeping their wages low. Failure to enforce our immigration laws
is just another form of Corporate Welfare and helps keep the Mexican
Billionaire Kleptocracy in power. Anything the Wall Street Journal,
Bush,
and Dashle agree on by definition must be bad for the country.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[thew]

-Caveat Lector-

I'm sure my children will curse me for far graver outrages than that, but I
assure they will also understand opposing viewpoints, and how to think for
themselves.


on 12/14/02 2:49 PM, flw at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -Caveat Lector-
>
>> Maybe I misremembered - I thought you had posted about illegal immigrants
>> coming into the US. If it was not you I apologize. I really don't find
> your
>> posts worth the hard drive space needed to keep them, so I don¹t
>
> Of course I oppose illegal immigrants coming to the US primarily because
> of the environmental destruction caused by our immigration fueled
> population explosion - but I certainly never called for capital punishment
> for illegal border crossers. Furthermore I don't blame poor immigrants
> for trying to come here - I am more incensed over the corporations
> that employ them at cheap wages thereby screwing native Americans
> by keeping their wages low. Failure to enforce our immigration laws
> is just another form of Corporate Welfare and helps keep the Mexican
> Billionaire Kleptocracy in power. Anything the Wall Street Journal, Bush,
> and Dashle agree on by definition must be bad for the country.
>
> Whether or not you decide to save my posts is up to you. Failure to
> save them is your children's loss since you will never be able to pass
> them on.
>
> They will curse you in your old age for your shortsightedness.
> flw
>
> http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
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> ==
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> screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
> sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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> major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
> That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
> always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
> credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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> Om

--
All the thoughts of a turtle are turtle

  Emerson, Journals, 1855







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Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[flw]

-Caveat Lector-

> Maybe I misremembered - I thought you had posted about illegal immigrants
> coming into the US. If it was not you I apologize. I really don't find
your
> posts worth the hard drive space needed to keep them, so I don¹t

Of course I oppose illegal immigrants coming to the US primarily because
of the environmental destruction caused by our immigration fueled
population explosion - but I certainly never called for capital punishment
for illegal border crossers. Furthermore I don't blame poor immigrants
for trying to come here - I am more incensed over the corporations
that employ them at cheap wages thereby screwing native Americans
by keeping their wages low. Failure to enforce our immigration laws
is just another form of Corporate Welfare and helps keep the Mexican
Billionaire Kleptocracy in power. Anything the Wall Street Journal, Bush,
and Dashle agree on by definition must be bad for the country.

Whether or not you decide to save my posts is up to you. Failure to
save them is your children's loss since you will never be able to pass
them on.

They will curse you in your old age for your shortsightedness.
flw

http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
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sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
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major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[thew]

-Caveat Lector-

Maybe I misremembered - I thought you had posted about illegal immigrants
coming into the US. If it was not you I apologize. I really don't find your
posts worth the hard drive space needed to keep them, so I don¹t

on 12/14/02 10:10 AM, flw at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -Caveat Lector-
>
>> Yes - and I said it was a funny stance from someone who has expressed
> such
>> outrage at border violations in the past
>
> What do you mean? Please repeat the 'outrage' expressed by me about
> 'border violations in the past'.
> flw
>
> http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
> screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
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> That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
> always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
> credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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> Om

--

The concept of ³god² is just a future memory of ourselves.

Barney
Funkasaurus



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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[flw]

-Caveat Lector-

> Yes - and I said it was a funny stance from someone who has expressed
such
> outrage at border violations in the past

What do you mean? Please repeat the 'outrage' expressed by me about
'border violations in the past'.
flw

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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[thew]

-Caveat Lector-

on 12/13/02 1:39 PM, flw at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -Caveat Lector-
>
>> The NY times did not use the word "execute" in their article - you did.
>
> I did not change a word in the article. I stated that in the Subject line.

>


Yes - and I said it was a funny stance from someone who has expressed such
outrage at border violations in the past

> Perhaps you prefer the word 'murder'?

I prefer "killing", as that probably covers both the action and the intent.



>> So you think any country should allow people to cross their borders
> wherever
>> they want, without legal papers, at closed points of the border?
> Especially
>> a country that has a history of terrorists sneaking across the border to
>> kill schoolchildren and shoppers?
>
> I don't think 'illegal' border crossing calls for the death penalty for
> unemployed job seekers.


I agree 100 %






>Whether a country has been subjected to
> bloody acts in revenge for that countries' bloody acts is irrelevant
> to the immoral shooting of job seekers.

It may not change the morality, but it provides a context for the actions.





>
> I don't think any normal person would disagree with the above -
> especially since the illegal border crossers are rewarded with
> jobs by the so called victims if they make it across.


I don't disagree with the above. I just always find people whose high morals
change from situation to situation fascinating.


>
>> You disingenuousness may seem cute to you, it seems idiotic to me.
>
> Perhaps you are not a normal person (see above).OTOH perhaps
> you believe in 'collective punishment' - an old Nazi technique and
> also apparently the current policy of the US.


The disingenuousness of course was in pretending I was commenting on the
article rather than my perception of hypocrisy in your stance.

As to any belief in collective punishment I have, we both know I have never
said anything that could be interpreted even remotely that way. It's a cheap
attack, based on some misguided stereotype I suppose. But I guess it works
in place of substance.



> flw
>
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> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
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> screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
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> That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
> always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
> credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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--
-- --- -- --  -- --

"I believe reality is a marvelous joke staged for my edification and
amusement, and everybody is working very hard to make me happy."
 --Terence McKenna


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Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[flw]

-Caveat Lector-

> The NY times did not use the word "execute" in their article - you did.

I did not change a word in the article. I stated that in the Subject line.
Perhaps you prefer the word 'murder'?

> So you think any country should allow people to cross their borders
wherever
> they want, without legal papers, at closed points of the border?
Especially
> a country that has a history of terrorists sneaking across the border to
> kill schoolchildren and shoppers?

I don't think 'illegal' border crossing calls for the death penalty for
unemployed job seekers. Whether a country has been subjected to
bloody acts in revenge for that countries' bloody acts is irrelevant
to the immoral shooting of job seekers.

I don't think any normal person would disagree with the above -
especially since the illegal border crossers are rewarded with
jobs by the so called victims if they make it across.

> You disingenuousness may seem cute to you, it seems idiotic to me.

Perhaps you are not a normal person (see above).OTOH perhaps
you believe in 'collective punishment' - an old Nazi technique and
also apparently the current policy of the US.
flw

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That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
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Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[flw]

-Caveat Lector-

> So you advocate people crossing borders illegally?

No, but I don't think it calls for the death penalty.
flw

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Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[thew]

-Caveat Lector-

I hit send by accident

The NY times did not use the word "execute" in their article - you did.

So you think any country should allow people to cross their borders wherever
they want, without legal papers, at closed points of the border? Especially
a country that has a history of terrorists sneaking across the border to
kill schoolchildren and shoppers?



You disingenuousness may seem cute to you, it seems idiotic to me.



on 12/13/02 9:33 AM, flw at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -Caveat Lector-
>
>> Kinda funny from someone who advocates shooting Mexicans and other
> illegal
>> aliens as the enter the US.
>
> What do you mean? Who advocates 'shooting' Mexicans, the NY Times
> reporters Michael Wines and Terrence Neilan who wrote the news
> report? I did not know the NY Times or its reporters advocates
> this policy. Very interesting.
> flw
>
> http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
> screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
> sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
> directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
> major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
> That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
> always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
> credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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> Om

--
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contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the

spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be

done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable

love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and

ignoble war is;  I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base

an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is

nothing but an act of murder."

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Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[thew]

-Caveat Lector-

So you advocate people crossing borders illegally?


on 12/13/02 9:33 AM, flw at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -Caveat Lector-
>
>> Kinda funny from someone who advocates shooting Mexicans and other
> illegal
>> aliens as the enter the US.
>
> What do you mean? Who advocates 'shooting' Mexicans, the NY Times
> reporters Michael Wines and Terrence Neilan who wrote the news
> report? I did not know the NY Times or its reporters advocates
> this policy. Very interesting.
> flw
>
> http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
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> ==
> CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
> screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
> sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
> directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
> major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
> That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
> always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
> credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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>
> Om

-- -- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - -  - - -- --- -- - - -  - -- - - -
--  -- - -- -
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that
accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due
process of law.


Edward R. Murrow






NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[flw]

-Caveat Lector-

> Kinda funny from someone who advocates shooting Mexicans and other
illegal
> aliens as the enter the US.

What do you mean? Who advocates 'shooting' Mexicans, the NY Times
reporters Michael Wines and Terrence Neilan who wrote the news
report? I did not know the NY Times or its reporters advocates
this policy. Very interesting.
flw

http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Israelis Execute 5 Unarmed Job Seeking Terrorists

[thew]

-Caveat Lector-

Kinda funny from someone who advocates shooting Mexicans and other illegal
aliens as the enter the US.






on 12/12/02 2:17 PM, flw at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -Caveat Lector-
>
> NY TIMES
> December 12, 2002
>
> 5 Unarmed Palestinians Killed by Israelis in Gaza
> By MICHAEL WINES with TERENCE NEILAN
>
> JERUSALEM, Dec. 12 - Five unarmed Palestinians were shot and killed as they
> tried to climb over the barbed-wire fence marking the boundary between the
> Gaza Strip and Israel, the Israeli Army said today.
>
> The five were seen by soldiers on Wednesday in an area where Palestinians
> are barred from entering. Soldiers fired at the five, and their bodies were
> found this morning, the army said. Ladders were found near the bodies, but
> no weapons.
>
> Palestinians looking for work in Israel often try to climb the fence or cut
> their way through. Unemployment is high in Gaza, particularly since
> security measures blocked Israel to Gaza residents.
>
> In other action in Gaza, Israeli soldiers killed an armed Palestinian
> trying attack a Jewish settlement today. A radical faction of the Palestine
> Liberation Organization, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine,
> claimed responsibility for the failed infiltration.
>
> Two Palestinians approached the Gush Katif settlement bloc before dawn,
> armed with automatic rifles, an Israeli Army commander, Lt. Col. Avi Oved,
> told The Associated Press.
>
> One of the attackers was cutting the perimeter fence, Colonel Oved said.
> "The forces fired on him and killed him," he said. "The other one was
> apparently behind and managed to flee. Their goal was definitely to get
> into one of the settlements."
>
> Also Thursday, the Tel Aviv District Court ruled that it had the right to
> try Marwan Barghouti, a leader of the current Palestinian uprising and the
> highest-ranking Palestinian official in custody.
>
> The defense argued that Mr. Barghouti, a leader of Yasir Arafat's Fatah
> movement in the West Bank, had immunity as a Palestinian legislator and
> that Israeli forces took him illegally from a West Bank home eight months
> ago.
>
> Mr. Barghouti had said he should be treated as a prisoner of war, not a
> criminal suspect. Israel has accused him of involvement in attacks that
> killed 26 Israelis.
>
> On the political front, a week of internal balloting appeared to edge
> Israel's Labor Party to the right as two peace activists in the party said
> on Wednesday that they would quit to join the left-wing Meretz Party in
> national elections next month.
>
> The two, Yossi Beilin and Yael Dayan, finished low in the Labor Party's
> internal elections this week, in which party members rank their candidates
> for seats in Israel's Parliament.
>
> In the elections on Jan. 28, Labor is expected to win only about 21 seats,
> 4 fewer than it currently holds. Other Labor candidates gained enough votes
> in this week's elections to claim all those seats.
>
> In Israeli parliamentary elections, citizens vote only for parties, which
> then apportion their seats among the top finishers in internal ballots like
> those held this week.
>
> Meretz, which advocates moves toward an immediate peace with Palestinian
> representatives, agreed to rank Mr. Beilin and Ms. Dayan higher on their
> candidates' list in exchange for their departure from Labor.
>
> Mr. Beilin's decision to leave Labor stands as a measure of the party's
> shift to the right since the Palestinian uprising began 26 months ago. He
> was one of the primary movers behind the interim peace accord that Israel
> and the Palestinian Authority signed in Oslo in 1993.
>
> The latest opinion polls showed the hard-line Likud Party, led by Prime
> Minister Ariel Sharon, holding a wide lead over the opposition Labor Party.
>
> According to the Dialogue research company poll published in the daily
> Haaretz today, Likud will get 41 seats in the 120-member Parliament, more
> than double the 19 seats it currently holds.
>
> http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org
> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
> ==
> CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
> screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please!  These are
> sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
> directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
> major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
> That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
> always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
> credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
>
> Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
> 
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