CS: Pol-police guns

2000-08-20 Thread Hugh Bellars

From:   "Hugh Bellars", [EMAIL PROTECTED]

My view is that the police should ditch the MP5s and
assault rifles which scare the crap out of the public
(with rare exceptions) and learn how to use pistols.

In an ideal world yes. It used to be amazing to watch
the top pistol shots do a flash sight picture and
compressed surprise-break and achieve accuracy
at high speed - in fact I wasn't that bad myself once
(very big nostalgic sigh!). However, I think that we
have to be realistic and realise that most AFOs outside
of the elite units like PT-17 are never going to be
given the range time and training to be able to
reproduce that sort of performance under stress, even
if typical ranges are 10 yards or less.

If police are still taught "instinctive, sense of
direction shooting techniques" for close-range incidents
rather than make proper use of the sights (as was suggested
in the ACPO report quoted by Rusty) then they _will_ miss
with pistols most of the time. Given the apparent level of
training of most AFOs, the self-loading carbine is a better
choice, given that it gives 3 index points on the weapon:
surely much easier to hit a target with under stress, and
better accuracy if a longer range shot is required.

In any event, the police seem to be going to 5.56mm
and even .40 SW (in the UMP40) which beat 9mm FMJ or
JSP.

I agree that 5.56mm is a better choice ballistically,
but have you ever experienced the flash and muzzle
blast from a short barelled 5.56mm in a confined space?
It's not something that you forget in a hurry and I would
definitely not like to experience it without good ear
defenders, especially if my next shot was likely to be
an important one. Therefore the best UK police firearm
would probably be something like the G36K, fitted with
one of Gerry Lapwoods compact Husher 1 moderators - but
that would definitely be un-PC in a big way! I understand
that PR concerns were a big motivation for the RUC use of
the M1 carbine and Ruger Mini14 in the past - nice folksy
wooden stocks with no pistol grips or wicked black plastic.

Hugh
--
I totally disagree - if virtually every patrol officer
on the face of the planet outside the UK can carry a pistol
then it makes no logical sense to argue that a tiny
proportion of our officers cannot be given sufficient
resources to learn how to shoot a pistol properly.

Pistols also cost half what an MP5 or G36K costs,
which means more money to spend on ammunition.

If officers are missing 70% of the time at less than
10 metres with MP5s then the training must be so dire
that having an MP5 confers little or no benefit over
a pistol.

There are two seperate issues here.  The first is
that the training needs to be a hell of a lot better
and the second is that the pistol is a better choice
for various reasons (easier to carry, less intimidating
to the public, cheaper etc.) than the MP5 or other
carbine.

The trick to using 5.56mm indoors is to get some
of the earplugs that attenuate the muzzle blast but
still allow voices to be heard.

Steve.


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CS: Pol-police guns

2000-08-17 Thread gsavage

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Police strated carrying guns at airports in the late
eighties in response to a terrorist bloodbath shootout
in Athens and interception of an IRA cell
with similar intentions. Whilst their presence and
equipment are often perceived as OTT they do a valuable job.

They regularly facilitate the movement of guns with
travellers through the Airport which generally saves you
from getting a thorough baggage search when you arrive
back - they are only concerned about the guns which helps
you with your real problem of all the other stuff you
bought abroad in excess of your duty free limit. This
is worth every penny of their salary.

Next, they disarm sky marshalls airside, so those
untrustworthy characters from ELAL ans SwissAir aren't
trolling around Blighty tooled up, they do get
them back when they leave though.

Finally they keep a thriving trade going in the latest
'Gucci' equipment designed to do a completely different
job. They support an important market for black ballistic
nylon, substandard unwearable body armour and ballistically
neutered ammo. As a result they have little to no money to
spend on good holsters and weapon retention training - 
because it will never happen to them, of course.

Guy


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CS: Pol-police guns

2000-08-16 Thread jonathan

From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 My view is that the police should ditch the MP5s and assault rifles
 which scare the crap out of the public (with rare exceptions) and
 learn how to use pistols.

I have to agree with you on this one Steve. Arriving at 
Gatwick a few weeks ago and seeing loads of Cops 
posing aroung with MP5s gives a somewhat intimidating 
impression. I can't really see the point, has there ever 
been a terrorist gun fight at a western Airport before?

Jonathan Laws
--
Italian airport police carry Glock 18s!  Yikes!

I can't remember when the airport police started
carrying MP5s but it wasn't always the case as
I remember going to Heathrow and they only had
Hi-Powers.

Given that they are semi-auto only, the only reason
for the MP5s appear to be that they are easier to
shoot accurately than a pistol.  I.e. a technological
solution to a training problem.

You don't see US Marshalls sitting on planes armed
with MP5s because they have trained to the point
with their SIGs that they don't need MP5s.

If we're going to have police officers walking around
airports armed to the teeth it behooves them to be
properly trained.  I was told by a West Midlands AFO
that airport officers are "trainees" who are put at
the airport until they are well-trained enough to
go out in ARVs.

Steve.


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