Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-09 Thread Dr. Volker Zell
 Thorsten Kampe writes:

 * Reid Thompson (Tue, 08 May 2007 07:00:45 -0400)
 Charles Wilson wrote:
  Sigh.  cygwin's rxvt is not broken.  It works for me, and about 2000 
  others.  
 
 +1 --I have been using cygwin  rxvt for several years (Xwin and Win) -- 
 has fulfilled every terminal need that I have.
 kudos to the 'maintainer'??.

 ++2

And finally, ++3

Thanks Charles
  Volker


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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-08 Thread Reid Thompson

Charles Wilson wrote:


Sigh.  cygwin's rxvt is not broken.  It works for me, and about 2000 
others.  


+1 --I have been using cygwin  rxvt for several years (Xwin and Win) -- 
has fulfilled every terminal need that I have.

kudos to the 'maintainer'??.

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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-08 Thread Thorsten Kampe
* Reid Thompson (Tue, 08 May 2007 07:00:45 -0400)
 Charles Wilson wrote:
  Sigh.  cygwin's rxvt is not broken.  It works for me, and about 2000 
  others.  
 
 +1 --I have been using cygwin  rxvt for several years (Xwin and Win) -- 
 has fulfilled every terminal need that I have.
 kudos to the 'maintainer'??.

++2


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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-07 Thread Gustavo Seabra

Hi all,

Thanks a lot to Thomas Dickey, Thorsten Kampe and Charles Wilson for 
taking time to answer my question. I'm very sorry if it lead to some 
argument, that has never been my intent. All I wanted to know was 
something like a side-by-side points, such as I use *1 because it has 
this feature that *2 doesn't...  etc., really from the used point of view.


Thanks again,

Gustavo.

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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-07 Thread Thomas Dickey

On Mon, 7 May 2007, Gustavo Seabra wrote:


Hi all,

Thanks a lot to Thomas Dickey, Thorsten Kampe and Charles Wilson for taking 
time to answer my question. I'm very sorry if it lead to some argument, that 
has never been my intent. All I wanted to know was something like a 
side-by-side points, such as I use *1 because it has this feature that *2 
doesn't...  etc., really from the used point of view.


hmm - I'm not in a good position to offer a side-by-side contrast since
I'm the (upstream) xterm and ncurses maintainer.

(I'll point out where a constrast is inaccurate though ;-)

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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-07 Thread Charles Wilson

[consolidating two subthreads]

Thomas Dickey wrote:
Not so fast, Thomas.  I did not and do not agree with your previous 
posts: neither of your messages claimed that upstream rxvt has no 
maintainer.  (If they did, then I would have agreed with that.)   
Your messages claimed that rxvt had no cygwin maintainer.  That claim 
is false: I am the cygwin maintainer for rxvt.


I don't much care for the role of cygwin maintainer in a discussion 
related to _support_, since you're deliberatly confusing the issue of

putting the file on someone's disk in contrast to making it work.


Sigh.  cygwin's rxvt is not broken.  It works for me, and about 2000 
others.  A few people seem to need additional help, and usually they 
seem to work it out themselves (typically, the problem is in their 
xserver configuration, or PIBKAC, because they haven't bothered to read 
the man pages, READMEs, other documenation, or STFW).  If somebody 
having a problem with rxvt ever followed the instructions on cygwin's 
problem page (and followed any of the embedded links, also reproduced 
below):

  http://cygwin.com/problems.html
 http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
and demonstrated that they HAD, in fact, RTFMed and STFWed and read the 
READMEs and other documentation...


first, I'd faint.

Then, I'd be more than willing to help (and my first question would be, 
does xterm work? G ).  But short of that, I've little motivation to 
answer repeated questions already answered elsewhere.  I'd much rather 
engage in tendentious discussions like this one.  No, scratch that.  I 
don't enjoy wasting time this way, either -- but since we're here, 
dadgummit...



On the cygwin lists, there are typically two possible meanings of the 
word maintainer.  However, there is a third meaning, and it appears we 
are failing to communicate because you're assuming only definitions A 
and C, and I was assuming only definitions A and B:


A: the upstream maintainer.  E.g:
the x.org folks for most of X
you, for xterm, ncurses, etc
me, for cygutils and a few other even more obscure things
the committers for gcc.
nobody, for rxvt

B: the cygwin maintainer.  The person responsible for the package on 
the cygwin mirror system, for accepting/acting on bug reports and 
patches *reported on the cygwin mailing lists*, for occasionally 
monitoring the upstream lists and feeding patches upstream.  And 
sometimes, if one is really lucky, providing 24/7 call-center-style 
end-user hand-holding.  This person approaches package 'X' as a member 
of the cygwin community, rather than the other way around.  E.g.

Harold Hunt, for xterm (yes, he's gone; so in cygwin parlance,
   xterm is unmaintained (but see category C, below)
me, for ncurses and rxvt and about 30 others
Dave Korn, for gcc (but Dave is now, also, a committer for gcc,
   which puts him in category A *and* C, as well!)

I don't do much end-user hand-holding, for any of my packages.  Maybe 
that makes me a *bad* maintainer.  But it does NOT mean, in the sense 
most often used on the cygwin lists, that cygwin's rxvt (or zlib, or 
unzip, or gettext, or...) package is unmaintained.


Quick: who's the maintainer of ncurses?  Depends on what you mean by 
maintainer.



C: a project maintainer with a focus on portability to a particular 
platform.  That is, a member of the project 'X' community, who is either 
responsible for, or otherwise cares about, whether 'X' works on 
[linux|cygwin|mingw|darwin|whathaveyou].  This person may (or may not) 
be a regular on the target platform's (cygiwn's?) mailing lists -- 
they may instead do all their porting work within the 'X' community's 
mailing lists.  This is typically the case for those projects that have 
cygwin ports, but do not, for whatever reason, submit them as official 
packages for the cygwin mirror system. E.g.

Yaakov Selkowitz (cygwin-ports) provides Gnome, KDE, and xFCE
  packages -- but uses /those/ projects' mailing lists and bugzillas
  to manage it.  He specifically requests that users of cygports
  use the mailing lists he has set up, and NOT cygwin's lists.
  However, he also hangs out on the cygwin lists, so...
You, for xterm (and ncurses, and terminfo).  You answer questions
  here, but do not take responsibility for the xterm package on
  the cygwin mirrors.
Dave Korn, gcc: he now spends as much time/posts as many messages
  on the various gcc lists as he does the cygwin lists, and has
  been given commit-after-approval access to gcc svn.  So, with
  regards to gcc, Dave is a hat trick: A, B, and C.

Obviously, there can be a lot of overlap.  And often, cooperation: I'm 
the 'B' maintainer for both gettext and libintl, but Bruno (the 'A' 
maintainer) takes a lot of interest in the cygwin and mingw platforms. 
I'll often send him patches, either directly or via bug-gettext, and he 

Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-06 Thread Thomas Dickey

On Sat, 5 May 2007, Charles Wilson wrote:

The fact is, rxvt upstream is dead, dead, dead. It has shuffled off this 
mortal coil.  Joined the choir invisible. It is an EX-terminal. The terminal 
is terminal.


thanks for agreeing with me.  It has no maintainer.


Frankly, I prefer rxvt-unicode on X -- even in non-unicode mode -- because


yes (does cygwin finally have unicode support? - no one's mentioned it
on this list at all).


http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2006-05/msg2.html


Wait: an announcement of a release (and not even the most recent 
announcement) is your evidence that a package is unmaintained?  Isn't that a 
bit backwards?



google's not showing me a recent maintainer for the code.


Hmm. 
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:cygwin.com+inurl:cygwin-announce+rxvt+20050409hl=enfilter=0


thanks - I didn't add in the announce, and found _only_ old references.
Not much traffic.

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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-06 Thread Charles Wilson

Thomas Dickey wrote:

On Sat, 5 May 2007, Charles Wilson wrote:

The fact is, rxvt upstream is dead, dead, dead. It has shuffled off 
this mortal coil.  Joined the choir invisible. It is an EX-terminal. 
The terminal is terminal.


thanks for agreeing with me.  It has no maintainer.


Not so fast, Thomas.  I did not and do not agree with your previous 
posts: neither of your messages claimed that upstream rxvt has no 
maintainer.  (If they did, then I would have agreed with that.)   Your 
messages claimed that rxvt had no cygwin maintainer.  That claim is 
false: I am the cygwin maintainer for rxvt.


Don't try to retcon this thread.

Frankly, I prefer rxvt-unicode on X -- even in non-unicode mode -- 
because


yes (does cygwin finally have unicode support? - no one's mentioned it
on this list at all).


No, cygwin does not. Cygwin's rxvt-unicode port has limited unicode 
support because Thomas Wolff provided me with a patch (to rxvt-unicode) 
that shims unicode support by intercepting certain X calls.


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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-06 Thread Thomas Dickey

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Charles Wilson wrote:


Thomas Dickey wrote:

On Sat, 5 May 2007, Charles Wilson wrote:

The fact is, rxvt upstream is dead, dead, dead. It has shuffled off this 
mortal coil.  Joined the choir invisible. It is an EX-terminal. The 
terminal is terminal.


thanks for agreeing with me.  It has no maintainer.


Not so fast, Thomas.  I did not and do not agree with your previous posts: 
neither of your messages claimed that upstream rxvt has no maintainer.  (If 
they did, then I would have agreed with that.)   Your messages claimed that 
rxvt had no cygwin maintainer.  That claim is false: I am the cygwin 
maintainer for rxvt.


I don't much care for the role of cygwin maintainer in a discussion 
related to _support_, since you're deliberatly confusing the issue of

putting the file on someone's disk in contrast to making it work.

When I've seen - say - more than 10% of your work in the latter, you'll
have something to argue about.  You're not there.


Don't try to retcon this thread.


that remark reflects poorly on you.

For the casual reader, google suggests that Charles Wilson called me a 
liar.



Frankly, I prefer rxvt-unicode on X -- even in non-unicode mode -- because


yes (does cygwin finally have unicode support? - no one's mentioned it
on this list at all).


No, cygwin does not. Cygwin's rxvt-unicode port has limited unicode support 
because Thomas Wolff provided me with a patch (to rxvt-unicode) that shims 
unicode support by intercepting certain X calls.


You're apparently still confused: the terminal emulator can certainly
implement something, but if the applications running in it can't (except 
as implied, for self-contained locale support), then it's of limited use.


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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-06 Thread Thorsten Kampe
* Thomas Dickey (Sun, 6 May 2007 10:49:23 -0400 (EDT))
 On Sun, 6 May 2007, Charles Wilson wrote:
  Thomas Dickey wrote:
  On Sat, 5 May 2007, Charles Wilson wrote:
  
  The fact is, rxvt upstream is dead, dead, dead. It has shuffled off this 
  mortal coil.  Joined the choir invisible. It is an EX-terminal. The 
  terminal is terminal.
  
  thanks for agreeing with me.  It has no maintainer.
 
  Not so fast, Thomas.  I did not and do not agree with your previous posts: 
  neither of your messages claimed that upstream rxvt has no maintainer.  
  (If 
  they did, then I would have agreed with that.)   Your messages claimed that 
  rxvt had no cygwin maintainer.  That claim is false: I am the cygwin 
  maintainer for rxvt.
 
 I don't much care for the role of cygwin maintainer in a discussion 
 related to _support_ [...]

You are confusing things. Quoting you: 'support is relative. There's 
apparently no X maintainer [...]'. If you don't 'care for the role of 
cygwin maintainer' then that's obviously nonsense as X is maintained 
upstream.

Thorsten


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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-06 Thread Thomas Dickey

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Thorsten Kampe wrote:


You are confusing things. Quoting you: 'support is relative. There's
apparently no X maintainer [...]'. If you don't 'care for the role of
cygwin maintainer' then that's obviously nonsense as X is maintained
upstream.


not at all: X upstream doesn't maintain the Cygwin X server.
(nothing's preventing them from doing that, but it's not the same as 
actually doing it).


Again, if there were an upstream _maintainer_ for rxvt (the point of this 
thread), they'd have done something useful with the win32 bits mentioned. 
There's certainly no cygwin maintainer for that, noting that the cited 
announcement was just a call for help rather than a notice of completed 
work.


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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-06 Thread Thorsten Kampe
* Thomas Dickey (Sun, 6 May 2007 13:36:31 -0400 (EDT))
 On Sun, 6 May 2007, Thorsten Kampe wrote:
  You are confusing things. Quoting you: 'support is relative. There's
  apparently no X maintainer [...]'. If you don't 'care for the role of
  cygwin maintainer' then that's obviously nonsense as X is maintained
  upstream.
 
 not at all: X upstream doesn't maintain the Cygwin X server.
 (nothing's preventing them from doing that, but it's not the same as 
 actually doing it).
 
 Again, if there were an upstream _maintainer_ for rxvt (the point of this 
 thread), they'd have done something useful with the win32 bits mentioned. 

Why would the upstream rxvt maintainer support (do something useful) 
with the Cygwin rxvt port when the X upstream maitainer doesn't?!


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Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-05 Thread Gustavo Seabra

Hi all,

I just wonder what is the current status of terminals for X in Cygwin. I 
currently use xterm, but I've seen people using rxvt and mrxvt. Also, I 
heard that rxvt is actually currently supported in Cygwin, something 
that xterm apparently isn't.


Is anybody using rxvt, mrxvt or something else that would care to share 
opinion/information/clues here?


Thanks,

Gustavo.

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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-05 Thread Thomas Dickey

On Sat, 5 May 2007, Gustavo Seabra wrote:


Hi all,

I just wonder what is the current status of terminals for X in Cygwin. I 
currently use xterm, but I've seen people using rxvt and mrxvt. Also, I heard 
that rxvt is actually currently supported in Cygwin, something that xterm 
apparently isn't.


support is relative.  There's apparently no X maintainer, so no updated 
packages.  On the other hand, while I respond to xterm issues(*) on this 
and other lists, I don't recall _ever_ seeing support from rxvt's 
maintainers on this list.


(*) aside from obvious ones - setting the font is an example that's best
done via the manpage.

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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-05 Thread Thorsten Kampe
* Thomas Dickey (Sat, 5 May 2007 10:12:18 -0400 (EDT))
 On Sat, 5 May 2007, Gustavo Seabra wrote:
  I just wonder what is the current status of terminals for X in Cygwin. I 
  currently use xterm, but I've seen people using rxvt and mrxvt. Also, I 
  heard 
  that rxvt is actually currently supported in Cygwin, something that xterm 
  apparently isn't.
 
 support is relative.  There's apparently no X maintainer, so no updated 
 packages.  On the other hand, while I respond to xterm issues(*) on this 
 and other lists, I don't recall _ever_ seeing support from rxvt's 
 maintainers on this list.

rxvt is not an X package...


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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-05 Thread Thomas Dickey

On Sat, 5 May 2007, Thorsten Kampe wrote:


* Thomas Dickey (Sat, 5 May 2007 10:12:18 -0400 (EDT))

On Sat, 5 May 2007, Gustavo Seabra wrote:

I just wonder what is the current status of terminals for X in Cygwin. I
currently use xterm, but I've seen people using rxvt and mrxvt. Also, I heard
that rxvt is actually currently supported in Cygwin, something that xterm
apparently isn't.


support is relative.  There's apparently no X maintainer, so no updated
packages.  On the other hand, while I respond to xterm issues(*) on this
and other lists, I don't recall _ever_ seeing support from rxvt's
maintainers on this list.


rxvt is not an X package...


rxvt could run in X, but I agree it has a win32-specific chunk of code.

However, the last I read of _that_ was that it was no longer supported.
For example

http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2006-05/msg2.html

google's not showing me a recent maintainer for the code.

If there's no maintainer, it's not supported, no matter what the mailing 
list is.


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Re: Xterm, rxvt, mrxvt, etc....

2007-05-05 Thread Charles Wilson

Thomas Dickey wrote:
support is relative.  There's apparently no X maintainer, so no 
updated

packages.  On the other hand, while I respond to xterm issues(*) on this
and other lists, I don't recall _ever_ seeing support from rxvt's
maintainers on this list.


It's a two-way street. I put out a call for assistance -- backed up with 
ITPs of five packages, so I put my money where my mouth was -- and a 
whole long forward-looking plan concerning a revived libW11


http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2006-03/msg00122.html
(and other messages in this thread, plus):

http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2006-03/msg00118.html
http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2006-03/msg00119.html
http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2006-03/msg00120.html
http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2006-03/msg00121.html

but no one cared.  I certainly got no interest in libW11, or rxvt-W11 -- 
such that their ITP's expired.


The fact is, rxvt upstream is dead, dead, dead. It has shuffled off this 
mortal coil.  Joined the choir invisible. It is an EX-terminal. The 
terminal is terminal.


Frankly, I prefer rxvt-unicode on X -- even in non-unicode mode -- 
because it's actively maintained upstream.   That's why I also maintain 
THAT package for cygwin.  Being monolingual, I can't vouch for the 
actual unicode support as I never use anything other than ASCII and US 
english.  For US/en input and non-unicode display, it works well and I 
use it daily.  For unicode display, it seems alright if you work very 
hard -- that is, read LOTS of FM and do LOTS of STFW -- at getting 
appropriate fonts installed.  For input other than US/en, I've had mixed 
success using US-intl kbd -- but then, I'm not really certain what true 
success should look like.  Please see /usr/share/doc/rxvt-unicode-7.7/* 
and /usr/share/doc/Cygwin/rxvt-unicode-X-7.7.README.


Concerning cygwin's rxvt-unicode-X: Yes, yes, I know: I need to update 
from 7.7 to 8.x.  But there's two problems there: (1) I need to forward 
port Wolff's unicode shims, and I'm not looking forward to that, and (2) 
I don't know what's going on with cygwin-1.7.0; IIRC there was talk -- 
just TALK -- about switching over to the *W win32api functions instead 
of the *A win32api ones.  Is that actually going to happen?  Will that 
affect the shims?  Obsolete them?  Require changes?  I dunno -- and I 
don't want to waste time on it before 1.7.0 is released.



rxvt is not an X package...


rxvt could run in X, but I agree it has a win32-specific chunk of code.

However, the last I read of _that_ was that it was no longer supported.
For example

http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2006-05/msg2.html


Wait: an announcement of a release (and not even the most recent 
announcement) is your evidence that a package is unmaintained?  Isn't 
that a bit backwards?


Granted, there have been only a few releases since I picked up that 
package: the one you mention last May, two last June, and the most 
recent last December.


All three updates were specifically in response to bug reports. *BUGS* I 
try to fix, if I have time.  *PATCHES* to fix existing bugs are even 
better.  But since the upstream is dead, there's no real impetus for 
releasing new versions -- except when bugs are reported or patches are 
provided.


Helping people fix their borked-up Xserver is not my bag.  Nor is 
providing the same old answer to the same old questions, that could be 
answered by reading any one of

  (a) the man page
  (b) the shipped documentation (/usr/share/doc/Cygwin/rxvt* and
  /usr/share/doc/rxvt-*/*)
  (c) or if the questioner would simple STFW.
or simply spending some time testing a few alternatives rather than 
running to the mailing list at the first sign of difficulty.  Like 
everyone else, my time for cygwin is a scarce resource -- I prefer to 
spend it on coding, bugfixing or functionality improvements (recently, 
gcc-4.x and, separately, libtool-2.x) than pretending to be a human 
interface to the man pages and READMEs.



google's not showing me a recent maintainer for the code.


Hmm. 
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:cygwin.com+inurl:cygwin-announce+rxvt+20050409hl=enfilter=0


rxvt-20050409-4
http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2006-12/msg00018.html

rxvt-20050409-3 (and also belatedly mentioned the unannounced -2)
http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-announce/2006-06/msg4.html

Also:
http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2006-05/msg00036.html
was only a year ago.

If there's no maintainer, it's not supported, no matter what the mailing 
list is. 


Your algorithm for determining which packages are maintained and which 
are not seems somewhat suspect.


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Chuck


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