Re: Upgrade woes.
* Eric Roode (Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:21:37 -0500) I do check www.cygwin.com before doing (what I think is going to be) a routine upgrade. If there's nothing in the news there, I assume that what I'm getting is just an upgrade of existing packages that I already have installed. Is that such a foolish assumption? The real problem is deeper: setup.exe is completely broken by design in respect to upgrading. If you choose Install from Internet it will silently choose to upgrade all your outdated packages without telling you or presenting you the automatically chosen packages. You have to click on View Partial to be able to see that on the last screen. But who knows about that option - or who thinks of that? You might simply want to install wget - and you end up with an update of and a completely broken X. Yaakov did a hell of a job[1], but I think he knew that - and I think this is not exaggerated - probably more than fifty percent of all existing Cygwin X installations would be more or less broken after the update. Thorsten [1] hell of a job meaning something positive -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
Eric Roode wrote: My xterms are screwed up. Numlock is very wonky: Let's say I start off with numlock on; I am in a Windows (non-X) window; I switch to an xterm; I use the numeric keypad to type; I get nothing (tildes, escape codes, non-numlock crap). I switch to another xterm, I type on the keypad, I get digits. I switch back to the first xterm, it's still acting as though numlock is off. I switch to a Windows window, then back to the first xterm. Now it behaves as though numlock is on. I switch to the second xterm window, *it* is behaving as though numlock is off. All this time, the numlock LED is lit. I can consistently repeat this. This has been quick-fixed by disabling the synchronization. Note that you'll have to start X server with numlock and capslock off. http://sourceware.org/ml/cygwin-xfree/2008-11/msg00265.html Yaakov (Cygwin Ports) wrote: * Temporary disabled the NumLock/CapsLock synchronization due to several bug reports. Thank you ! -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Upgrade-woes.-tp20582979p20624986.html Sent from the cygwin-xfree mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:43:19 -0500, cygwin at cwilson dot fastmail dot fm wrote: Eric Roode wrote: I updated my cygwin the other day, as I periodically do, and I am very sorry I did so. Here are some of the problems I have encountered. It has always been the advice of this list that you should read the announcements on cygwin-announce@ and cygwin-xfree-announce before upgrading blindly. How amusingly recursive: It has always been the advice of the mailing lists that you should check the mailing lists before upgrading :-) I did not check the *-announce lists before running setup. I did not know of their existence. To me, mailing lists are for developers, groupies, and people with tech supp problems, not something to be subscribed to and monitored by ordinary users on an ongoing basis -- I have enough noise in my inbox as it is. I do check www.cygwin.com before doing (what I think is going to be) a routine upgrade. If there's nothing in the news there, I assume that what I'm getting is just an upgrade of existing packages that I already have installed. Is that such a foolish assumption? The flaw in my cunning plan, it seems, is that www.cygwin.com is *never* updated, except to note an occasional upgrade to the DLL itself. I guess I should also have been checking x.cygwin.com -- but even that only has a short mention of an upgrade, with a pointer to the announcement, which mostly talks about stuff that I do not know or care about: something called XCB, some composite extension, some XVideo extension, and so on. Yes, I should have followed the upgrade instructions section, and that would have helped, but would not have prepared me for the unholy mess that was to follow. Now, often you can get away with /not/ doing that, d nothing bad will happen. But if I ran setup, and saw 157 new packages about to be upgraded...I might want to investigate a little before clicking continue. Where do you see 157 new packages about to be upgraded? setup says no such thing. I have been making the assumption, apparently a stupid one, that when you run setup and don't choose to install anything new, it checks for upgrades to the stuff you have already installed, and goes ahead and patches what you have. I don't look to see how much new stuff there is -- why should I? I just click next and go. I did notice that the download and upgrade took much longer than usual. Know what I thought? Gee, there must be some major security fix to a whole lot of packages. But, as always, it's up to you. We'll happily refund all the money you paid. I too contribute to the open-source community, and I have always disliked this snarky answer. It's free -- what did you expect, quality? Service? Well yes, I do. You'll never get far in the closed-source-commercial vs open-source-community argument if you keep falling back on it's free as an excuse not to document, not to support. Eric -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
Back, Michael wrote: My point is that relying on a user to have the forethought, time, and patience to scour through a mailing list archive is probably not the most effective or convenient form of communicating common upgrade problems and solutions. Asking thousands of people to answer a question which you could have entered into Google falls short in convenience as well. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
How does the location of the startup batch file affect the behavior of numlock and capslock in xterm? Yes. The batch file is different. The binary is different. The environment variables are different. For example this is in the old batch file but not in the new one. SET XAPPLRESDIR=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults SET XCMSDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/Xcms.txt SET XKEYSYMDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XKeysymDB SET XNLSPATH=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/locale I suspect that XKEYSYMDB one has something to do with the problem you're having. The new file doesn't assign these variables at all, and runs a different binary. I just re-installed Cygwin on my machine, deleted my .bash_profile, .bashrc and .Xdefaults in my home, and I still have the same numlock/capslock issue. My config is quite standard : Windows XP SP2. It is easily reproductible I guess. BTW, in startxwin.bat, this line : SET CYGWIN_ROOT=\cygwin is true only if you install Cygwin in the default path. I had to change it to match my configuration, otherwise the XWin Server does not work. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
Eric Roode wrote: How amusingly recursive: It has always been the advice of the mailing lists that you should check the mailing lists before upgrading :-) Somehow you found *this* list to complain to. On that same page, there are two different *-announce lists. What did you think they were for, wedding announcements? I did not check the *-announce lists before running setup. I did not know of their existence. To me, mailing lists are for developers, groupies, and people with tech supp problems, not something to be subscribed to and monitored by ordinary users on an ongoing basis -- I have enough noise in my inbox as it is. I don't subscribe to any of the lists. I use the on-line archives, or gmane. You can too. That way you can check the lists when you need to, but not clutter your inbox. The problem with googling is it takes a few days or weeks for new information to make it into google's index. The on-line mailing list archives are usually only 15 minutes or less behind current activity. Unless you want to wait a few weeks, scanning the last day or so's subject lines in the archives -- or running a search via gmane -- will find more current results for your queries. I do check www.cygwin.com before doing (what I think is going to be) a routine upgrade. If there's nothing in the news there, I assume that what I'm getting is just an upgrade of existing packages that I already have installed. Is that such a foolish assumption? No. In fact, you can leave out the If qualifier. In general, the only thing setup will do is upgrade what you already have. BUT... The flaw in my cunning plan, it seems, is that www.cygwin.com is *never* updated, except to note an occasional upgrade to the DLL itself. That's because the people with the ability to update the cygwin web page are not the people who maintain and update individual packages -- and there are far too many of the latter to grant such untrammeled access, and far too many individual packages. Any update web page would either grow to unweildy size, recent updates would too quickly roll off the page, and/or the information provided concerning each individual update would be too terse to be useful, or too verbose to allow more than one or two updates to be visible at a time. AND, you probably don't care about the latest octave or subversion update. Fortunately, there is a already a solution to all of these problems: the *-announce mailing lists and their on-line archives. I guess I should also have been checking x.cygwin.com -- but even that only has a short mention of an upgrade, with a pointer to the announcement, which mostly talks about stuff that I do not know or care about: something called XCB, some composite extension, some XVideo extension, and so on. In other words, you're using something you don't understand -- but which hasn't changed in over two years because there was no maintainer (BTW, that's a /bad/ thing). So, you've had years to get used to the way that old version work(ed) -- by years' worth of trial and error, apparently, as you never tried to educate yourself on exactly what you were using. Meanwhile the actual non-cygwin development of X rolled forward, thru a MAJOR restructuring. This restructuring and rewrite caused a few headaches even over in linux-land -- but that was more than a year ago for them, because we (cygwin) are so far behind. So, when we finally catch up...we can expect the some of the same headaches. And reasonable users with an ounce of curiosity -- or a modicum of caution -- were all well-informed of the possibility. Others, perhaps, were not so well informed. Which is not to say that ANY specific headache was predicted, or predictable -- or even preventable. If some *specific* problem were predicted and preventable, Yaakov Jon would have done so. In fact, they did. There's a thousand things that /didn't/ go wrong. Yes, I should have followed the upgrade instructions section, and that would have helped, but would not have prepared me for the unholy mess that was to follow. Counterfactual. IF you had followed the proper instructions, then something different would have happened; we don't know exactly what, nor /how many/ things would have gone wrong in that hypothetical case. Of your complaints, most of them WERE addressed in the original announcement message. Of the remainder, would one or two minor problems qualify as an unholy mess? There's also one basic computer-related common-sense policy that your practices violate: if Adobe Premiere installs a bunch of files, and you EDIT one of them -- unless it is a configuration file -- you can EXPECT that Adobe Premiere will feel free to over-write the file on its next upgrade. Premiere installed the file, it's not a user configuration file -- it OWNS that file. Not you. Don't be surprised when your customizations go poof. If you want to customize a non-configuration file, MAKE A COPY. Put it somewhere
Re: Upgrade woes.
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:03:11AM -0500, Eric Roode wrote: I updated my cygwin the other day, as I periodically do, and I am very sorry I did so. Here are some of the problems I have encountered. So you just blindly updated without noticing that X was changing? Wow. It's amazing that you aren't being constantly burned by software updates with that kind of optimistic attitude. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
I have the same Numlock/Capslock issue (see my previous post). Stop fighting about this, it doesn't help ! Please, does anybody have a solution ?? -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
Dont Care wrote: I have the same Numlock/Capslock issue (see my previous post). Stop fighting about this, it doesn't help ! Please, does anybody have a solution ?? Yes. The location of the startup bat files changed from /usr/X11R6/bin to /usr/bin. You need to change your start menu shortcuts to run the new .bat file. I think there's a package that's supposed to do it automatically for you too. I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:06:37 -0500, Chuck wrote: Dont Care wrote: I have the same Numlock/Capslock issue (see my previous post). Stop fighting about this, it doesn't help ! Please, does anybody have a solution ?? Yes. The location of the startup bat files changed from /usr/X11R6/bin to /usr/bin. You need to change your start menu shortcuts to run the new .bat file. I think there's a package that's supposed to do it automatically for you too. How does the location of the startup batch file affect the behavior of numlock and capslock in xterm? I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list. I for one did peruse the mailing list archives, and did a bunch of google searching, before posting here. I saw how things had been moved from /usr/X11R6/foo to /usr/foo. (That change makes zero sense to me, but what the hell, I'm just a luser). I do not see how that affects the behavior of xterm, especially capslock/numlock/toolbar behavior. Maybe I'm just dense. Try to see the frustration of the people who are asking these questions -- suddenly things are broken, and it is not apparent why, and the cygwin websites say nothing, and the hundreds of mailing-list messages do not appear to address the questions we have. Eric -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
Eric Roode wrote: How does the location of the startup batch file affect the behavior of numlock and capslock in xterm? Yes. The batch file is different. The binary is different. The environment variables are different. For example this is in the old batch file but not in the new one. SET XAPPLRESDIR=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults SET XCMSDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/Xcms.txt SET XKEYSYMDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XKeysymDB SET XNLSPATH=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/locale I suspect that XKEYSYMDB one has something to do with the problem you're having. The new file doesn't assign these variables at all, and runs a different binary. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
RE: Upgrade woes.
Chuck wrote: I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list. Perhaps because people can't find the info. they need in any other way than posting to this list? I know that I only happened on this list during the past two days because I was a regular updater and all of a sudden things just didn't work any more after upgrading. I looked through the FAQ announcements didn't see anything that would help me through problems/hiccups with the upgrade... so I joined the list. And I still can't /quite/ get everything that I need working... app-image-san-004:image undefined control XView warning: Cannot load font set '-bh-lucida-medium-r-*-*-*-120-*-*-*-*-*-*' (Font package) XView warning: Unable to open default font set XView error: Cannot open connection to window server: app-image-san-004:10.0 (Server package) app-image-san-004: I'm certain that this is an xset snafu (scripts to invoke mission critical applications at my company expect to see fonts in certain directories on the X server). Symlinks need updating I suppose, and I have to do the mkfontdir shuffle as well on all of my non-cygwin supplied font directories (that got moved)... Sigh... Can someone here provide a link to documentation that we can turn to in a FAQ form to help us proactively identify and fix commonly encountered problems with the update? I'm looking for something like a HOWTO migrate. If such doesn't exist, I suppose that I can help cook something up from my own experiences... Thanks, Michael PS -- Yaakov Jon, thanks for all the help thanks for stepping up and working on Cygwin/X. I know that once the initial pain is over that this will be great for everyone. It's going to be nice to be on a more current X. -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 03:16:05PM -0800, Back, Michael wrote: Chuck wrote: I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list. Perhaps because people can't find the info. they need in any other way than posting to this list? You seem to be missing the point that if it was discussed in the list you can use the list archive as a resource. You don't have to just blindly send email assuming that no one else would ever have asked the same question. cgf -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Back, Michael wrote: I solved this one by guessing and loading the right font pack... Which font pack contains this one?: app-image-san-004:station: Warning: Can't chmod /dev/console XView warning: Cannot load font set '-*-screen-bold-r-*-*-*-160-*-*-*-*-*-*' (Font package) station: line 26 of /image/bin.rls/custom/production_station_buttons, FONT: Cannot open button font 'screen.b.16' No such font is provided by X.Org, and some googling makes me suspect that this may be a Solaris-specific font. Yaakov Cygwin/X -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Cygwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAkkkxUoACgkQpiWmPGlmQSNlMgCeKoWpCSbxPLMqh8rWdtlxqtr1 ts8AoIGGmglMABN9zpo6p2z2jCnUf2AD =Q1x7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
Eric Roode wrote: I updated my cygwin the other day, as I periodically do, and I am very sorry I did so. Here are some of the problems I have encountered. It has always been the advice of this list that you should read the announcements on cygwin-announce@ and cygwin-xfree-announce before upgrading blindly. Now, often you can get away with /not/ doing that, d nothing bad will happen. But if I ran setup, and saw 157 new packages about to be upgraded...I might want to investigate a little before clicking continue. http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree-announce/2008-11/msg0.html But, as always, it's up to you. We'll happily refund all the money you paid. -- Chuck -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
Re: Upgrade woes.
Back, Michael wrote: Christopher Faylor did utter a clarion call of great frustration unto the heavens: On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 03:16:05PM -0800, Back, Michael wrote: Chuck wrote: I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list. Perhaps because people can't find the info. they need in any other way than posting to this list? You seem to be missing the point that if it was discussed in the list you can use the list archive as a resource. You don't have to just blindly send email assuming that no one else would ever have asked the same question. My point is that relying on a user to have the forethought, time, and patience to scour through a mailing list archive is probably not the most effective or convenient form of communicating common upgrade problems and solutions. Probably not surprisingly, this idea is not new. It's been discussed before and only remains as a topic for discussion because of a lack of resources to help make the situation better. If anyone would like to research, monitor, and dig in to help make the documentation or install tools better and more helpful, I expect that would be welcome. Keep in mind that where Cygwin/X is concerned, there has been no maintainer for _years_ so I think we can all anticipate the amount of work to get all the packages upgraded, documented, and spiffy is significant. And there will be some bumps along the way... -- Larry Hall http://www.rfk.com RFK Partners, Inc. (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office 216 Dalton Rd. (508) 429-6305 - FAX Holliston, MA 01746 -- Unsubscribe info: http://cygwin.com/ml/#unsubscribe-simple Problem reports: http://cygwin.com/problems.html Documentation: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/ FAQ: http://x.cygwin.com/docs/faq/
