Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-23 Thread Thorsten Kampe
* Eric Roode (Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:21:37 -0500)
 I do check www.cygwin.com before doing (what I think is going to be) a
 routine upgrade. If there's nothing in the news there, I assume that
 what I'm getting is just an upgrade of existing packages that I
 already have installed. Is that such a foolish assumption?

The real problem is deeper: setup.exe is completely broken by design in 
respect to upgrading. If you choose Install from Internet it will 
silently choose to upgrade all your outdated packages without telling 
you or presenting you the automatically chosen packages. You have to 
click on View  Partial to be able to see that on the last screen. But 
who knows about that option - or who thinks of that?

You might simply want to install wget - and you end up with an update of 
and a completely broken X.

Yaakov did a hell of a job[1], but I think he knew that - and I think 
this is not exaggerated -  probably more than fifty percent of all 
existing Cygwin X installations would be more or less broken after the 
update.

Thorsten
[1] hell of a job meaning something positive


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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-21 Thread Do Not Reply


Eric Roode wrote:
 
 My xterms are screwed up.  Numlock is very wonky:  Let's say I start
 off with numlock on; I am in a Windows (non-X) window; I switch to an
 xterm; I use the numeric keypad to type; I get nothing (tildes, escape
 codes, non-numlock crap).  I switch to another xterm, I type on the
 keypad, I get digits.  I switch back to the first xterm, it's still
 acting as though numlock is off.  I switch to a Windows window, then
 back to the first xterm.  Now it behaves as though numlock is on.  I
 switch to the second xterm window, *it* is behaving as though numlock
 is off.  All this time, the numlock LED is lit.  I can consistently
 repeat this.
 

This has been quick-fixed by disabling the synchronization. Note that you'll
have to start X server with numlock and capslock off.

http://sourceware.org/ml/cygwin-xfree/2008-11/msg00265.html


Yaakov (Cygwin Ports) wrote:
 
 * Temporary disabled the NumLock/CapsLock synchronization due to several
 bug reports.
 

Thank you !

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-20 Thread Eric Roode
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:43:19 -0500, cygwin at cwilson dot fastmail dot fm wrote:
 Eric Roode wrote:
  I updated my cygwin the other day, as I periodically do, and I am very
  sorry I did so.  Here are some of the problems I have encountered.

 It has always been the advice of this list that you should read the
 announcements on cygwin-announce@ and cygwin-xfree-announce before
 upgrading blindly.

How amusingly recursive:  It has always been the advice of the
mailing lists that you should check the mailing lists before
upgrading  :-)

I did not check the *-announce lists before running setup.  I did
not know of their existence.  To me, mailing lists are for developers,
groupies, and people with tech supp problems, not something to be
subscribed to and monitored by ordinary users on an ongoing basis -- I
have enough noise in my inbox as it is.

I do check www.cygwin.com before doing (what I think is going to
be) a routine upgrade.  If there's nothing in the news there, I assume
that what I'm getting is just an upgrade of existing packages that I
already have installed.  Is that such a foolish assumption?

The flaw in my cunning plan, it seems, is that www.cygwin.com is
*never* updated, except to note an occasional upgrade to the DLL
itself.  I guess I should also have been checking x.cygwin.com -- but
even that only has a short mention of an upgrade, with a pointer to
the announcement, which mostly talks about stuff that I do not know or
care about: something called XCB, some composite extension, some
XVideo extension, and so on.  Yes, I should have followed the
upgrade instructions section, and that would have helped, but would
not have prepared me for the unholy mess that was to follow.

  Now, often you can get away with /not/ doing that, d
 nothing bad will happen.  But if I ran setup, and saw 157 new packages
 about to be upgraded...I might want to investigate a little before
 clicking continue.

Where do you see 157 new packages about to be upgraded?  setup
says no such thing.

I have been making the assumption, apparently a stupid one, that
when you run setup and don't choose to install anything new, it checks
for upgrades to the stuff you have already installed, and goes ahead
and patches what you have.  I don't look to see how much new stuff
there is -- why should I?  I just click next and go.  I did notice
that the download and upgrade took much longer than usual.  Know what
I thought? Gee, there must be some major security fix to a whole lot
of packages.


 But, as always, it's up to you. We'll happily refund all the money you paid.

I too contribute to the open-source community, and I have always
disliked this snarky answer.  It's free -- what did you expect,
quality? Service?  Well yes, I do.  You'll never get far in the
closed-source-commercial vs open-source-community argument if you keep
falling back on it's free as an excuse not to document, not to
support.

Eric

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-20 Thread Tim Prince
Back, Michael wrote:

 
 My point is that relying on a user to have the forethought, time, and 
 patience to scour through a mailing list archive is probably not the most 
 effective or convenient form of communicating common upgrade problems and 
 solutions.
 
Asking thousands of people to answer a question which you could have
entered into Google falls short in convenience as well.

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-20 Thread Dont Care
 
  How does the location of the startup batch file affect the behavior of
  numlock and capslock in xterm?
 

 Yes. The batch file is different. The binary is different. The
 environment variables are different. For example this is in the old
 batch file but not in the new one.

 SET XAPPLRESDIR=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults
 SET XCMSDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/Xcms.txt
 SET XKEYSYMDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XKeysymDB
 SET XNLSPATH=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/locale

 I suspect that XKEYSYMDB one has something to do with the problem you're
 having. The new file doesn't assign these variables at all, and runs a
 different binary.

I just re-installed Cygwin on my machine, deleted my .bash_profile,
.bashrc and .Xdefaults in my home, and I still have the same
numlock/capslock issue.

My config is quite standard : Windows XP SP2. It is easily
reproductible I guess.

BTW, in startxwin.bat, this line :
SET CYGWIN_ROOT=\cygwin
is true only if you install Cygwin in the default path. I had to
change it to match my configuration, otherwise the XWin Server does
not work.

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-20 Thread cygwin
Eric Roode wrote:
 How amusingly recursive:  It has always been the advice of the
 mailing lists that you should check the mailing lists before
 upgrading  :-)

Somehow you found *this* list to complain to. On that same page, there
are two different *-announce lists. What did you think they were for,
wedding announcements?

 I did not check the *-announce lists before running setup.  I did
 not know of their existence.  To me, mailing lists are for developers,
 groupies, and people with tech supp problems, not something to be
 subscribed to and monitored by ordinary users on an ongoing basis -- I
 have enough noise in my inbox as it is.

I don't subscribe to any of the lists. I use the on-line archives, or
gmane. You can too.  That way you can check the lists when you need to,
but not clutter your inbox.

The problem with googling is it takes a few days or weeks for new
information to make it into google's index. The on-line mailing list
archives are usually only 15 minutes or less behind current activity.
Unless you want to wait a few weeks, scanning the last day or so's
subject lines in the archives -- or running a search via gmane -- will
find more current results for your queries.

 I do check www.cygwin.com before doing (what I think is going to
 be) a routine upgrade.  If there's nothing in the news there, I assume
 that what I'm getting is just an upgrade of existing packages that I
 already have installed.  Is that such a foolish assumption?

No. In fact, you can leave out the If qualifier. In general, the only
thing setup will do is upgrade what you already have. BUT...

 The flaw in my cunning plan, it seems, is that www.cygwin.com is
 *never* updated, except to note an occasional upgrade to the DLL
 itself.

That's because the people with the ability to update the cygwin web page
are not the people who maintain and update individual packages -- and
there are far too many of the latter to grant such untrammeled access,
and far too many individual packages.  Any update web page would
either grow to unweildy size, recent updates would too quickly roll
off the page, and/or the information provided concerning each individual
update would be too terse to be useful, or too verbose to allow more
than one or two updates to be visible at a time.  AND, you probably
don't care about the latest octave or subversion update.
Fortunately, there is a already a solution to all of these problems: the
*-announce mailing lists and their on-line archives.

  I guess I should also have been checking x.cygwin.com -- but
 even that only has a short mention of an upgrade, with a pointer to
 the announcement, which mostly talks about stuff that I do not know or
 care about: something called XCB, some composite extension, some
 XVideo extension, and so on. 

In other words, you're using something you don't understand -- but which
hasn't changed in over two years because there was no maintainer (BTW,
that's a /bad/ thing).  So, you've had years to get used to the way
that old version work(ed) -- by years' worth of trial and error,
apparently, as you never tried to educate yourself on exactly what you
were using.

Meanwhile the actual non-cygwin development of X rolled forward, thru a
MAJOR restructuring.  This restructuring and rewrite caused a few
headaches even over in linux-land -- but that was more than a year ago
for them, because we (cygwin) are so far behind.

So, when we finally catch up...we can expect the some of the same
headaches. And reasonable users with an ounce of curiosity -- or a
modicum of caution -- were all well-informed of the possibility.

Others, perhaps, were not so well informed.

Which is not to say that ANY specific headache was predicted, or
predictable -- or even preventable. If some *specific* problem were
predicted and preventable, Yaakov  Jon would have done so.  In fact,
they did.  There's a thousand things that /didn't/ go wrong.

 Yes, I should have followed the
 upgrade instructions section, and that would have helped, but would
 not have prepared me for the unholy mess that was to follow.

Counterfactual. IF you had followed the proper instructions, then
something different would have happened; we don't know exactly what, nor
 /how many/ things would have gone wrong in that hypothetical case.  Of
your complaints, most of them WERE addressed in the original
announcement message. Of the remainder, would one or two minor problems
qualify as an unholy mess?

There's also one basic computer-related common-sense policy that your
practices violate: if Adobe Premiere installs a bunch of files, and you
EDIT one of them -- unless it is a configuration file -- you can EXPECT
that Adobe Premiere will feel free to over-write the file on its next
upgrade. Premiere installed the file, it's not a user configuration file
-- it OWNS that file. Not you. Don't be surprised when your
customizations go poof.  If you want to customize a non-configuration
file, MAKE A COPY. Put it somewhere 

Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Christopher Faylor
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:03:11AM -0500, Eric Roode wrote:
I updated my cygwin the other day, as I periodically do, and I am very
sorry I did so.  Here are some of the problems I have encountered.

So you just blindly updated without noticing that X was changing?  Wow.
It's amazing that you aren't being constantly burned by software updates
with that kind of optimistic attitude.

cgf

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Dont Care
I have the same Numlock/Capslock issue (see my previous post).

Stop fighting about this, it doesn't help ! Please, does anybody have
a solution ??

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Chuck
Dont Care wrote:
 I have the same Numlock/Capslock issue (see my previous post).
 
 Stop fighting about this, it doesn't help ! Please, does anybody have
 a solution ??

Yes. The location of the startup bat files changed from /usr/X11R6/bin
to /usr/bin. You need to change your start menu shortcuts to run the new
.bat file. I think there's a package that's supposed to do it
automatically for you too.

I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question
has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list.


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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Eric Roode
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:06:37 -0500, Chuck wrote:

Dont Care wrote:
 I have the same Numlock/Capslock issue (see my previous post).

 Stop fighting about this, it doesn't help ! Please, does anybody have
 a solution ??

Yes. The location of the startup bat files changed from /usr/X11R6/bin
to /usr/bin. You need to change your start menu shortcuts to run the new
.bat file. I think there's a package that's supposed to do it
automatically for you too.

How does the location of the startup batch file affect the behavior of
numlock and capslock in xterm?

I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question
has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list.

I for one did peruse the mailing list archives, and did a bunch of
google searching, before posting here.  I saw how things had been
moved from /usr/X11R6/foo to /usr/foo.  (That change makes zero sense
to me, but what the hell, I'm just a luser).  I do not see how that
affects the behavior of xterm, especially capslock/numlock/toolbar
behavior.  Maybe I'm just dense.

Try to see the frustration of the people who are asking these
questions -- suddenly things are broken, and it is not apparent why,
and the cygwin websites say nothing, and the hundreds of mailing-list
messages do not appear to address the questions we have.

Eric

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Chuck
Eric Roode wrote:


 How does the location of the startup batch file affect the behavior of
 numlock and capslock in xterm?


Yes. The batch file is different. The binary is different. The
environment variables are different. For example this is in the old
batch file but not in the new one.

SET XAPPLRESDIR=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults
SET XCMSDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/Xcms.txt
SET XKEYSYMDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XKeysymDB
SET XNLSPATH=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/locale

I suspect that XKEYSYMDB one has something to do with the problem you're
having. The new file doesn't assign these variables at all, and runs a
different binary.


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RE: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Back, Michael
Chuck wrote:
I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question
has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list.

Perhaps because people can't find the info. they need in any other way than 
posting to this list?

I know that I only happened on this list during the past two days because I was 
a regular updater and all of a sudden things just didn't work any more after 
upgrading.  I looked through the FAQ  announcements  didn't see anything that 
would help me through problems/hiccups with the upgrade... so I joined the list.

And I still can't /quite/ get everything that I need working...

app-image-san-004:image
undefined control
XView warning: Cannot load font set 
'-bh-lucida-medium-r-*-*-*-120-*-*-*-*-*-*' (Font package)
XView warning: Unable to open default font set 
XView error: Cannot open connection to window server: app-image-san-004:10.0 
(Server package)
app-image-san-004:

I'm certain that this is an xset snafu (scripts to invoke mission critical 
applications at my company expect to see fonts in certain directories on the X 
server).  Symlinks need updating I suppose, and I have to do the mkfontdir 
shuffle as well on all of my non-cygwin supplied font directories (that got 
moved)...

Sigh...

Can someone here provide a link to documentation that we can turn to in a FAQ 
form to help us proactively identify and fix commonly encountered problems with 
the update?  I'm looking for something like a HOWTO migrate.  If such doesn't 
exist, I suppose that I can help cook something up from my own experiences...

Thanks,

Michael

PS -- Yaakov  Jon, thanks for all the help  thanks for stepping up and 
working on Cygwin/X.  I know that once the initial pain is over that this will 
be great for everyone.  It's going to be nice to be on a more current X.

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RE: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Back, Michael
 
Michael Back wrote:
And I still can't /quite/ get everything that I need working...

app-image-san-004:image
undefined control
XView warning: Cannot load font set 
'-bh-lucida-medium-r-*-*-*-120-*-*-*-*-*-*' (Font package)
XView warning: Unable to open default font set 
XView error: Cannot open connection to window server: 
app-image-san-004:10.0 (Server package)
app-image-san-004:

I solved this one by guessing and loading the right font pack...  Which font 
pack contains this one?:

app-image-san-004:station: Warning: Can't chmod /dev/console
XView warning: Cannot load font set '-*-screen-bold-r-*-*-*-160-*-*-*-*-*-*' 
(Font package)
station: line 26 of /image/bin.rls/custom/production_station_buttons, FONT: 
Cannot open button font 'screen.b.16'

Thanks,

Michael

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Christopher Faylor
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 06:07:03PM +0100, Dont Care wrote:
I have the same Numlock/Capslock issue (see my previous post).

Stop fighting about this, it doesn't help ! Please, does anybody have
a solution ??

There is no reason to think that the previous two people contributing to
this thread would be able to help you with your problem.

It's not all about you.

cgf

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Christopher Faylor
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 03:16:05PM -0800, Back, Michael wrote:
Chuck wrote:
I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question
has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list.

Perhaps because people can't find the info.  they need in any other way
than posting to this list?

You seem to be missing the point that if it was discussed in the list
you can use the list archive as a resource.  You don't have to just
blindly send email assuming that no one else would ever have asked the
same question.

cgf

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Eric Roode
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:11:33 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
 On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 03:16:05PM -0800, Back, Michael wrote:
 Perhaps because people can't find the info.  they need in any other way
 than posting to this list?

 You seem to be missing the point that if it was discussed in the list
 you can use the list archive as a resource.  You don't have to just
 blindly send email assuming that no one else would ever have asked the
 same question.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:01:34 -0500, Christopher Faylor wrote:
 There is no reason to think that the previous two people contributing to
 this thread would be able to help you with your problem.

 It's not all about you.

You are quite the self-righteous little snot, aren't you.

Eric

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Yaakov (Cygwin Ports)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Back, Michael wrote:
 I solved this one by guessing and loading the right font pack...  
 Which font pack contains this one?:
 
 app-image-san-004:station: Warning: Can't chmod /dev/console
 XView warning: Cannot load font set '-*-screen-bold-r-*-*-*-160-*-*-*-*-*-*' 
 (Font package)
 station: line 26 of /image/bin.rls/custom/production_station_buttons, FONT: 
 Cannot open button font 'screen.b.16'

No such font is provided by X.Org, and some googling makes me suspect
that this may be a Solaris-specific font.


Yaakov
Cygwin/X
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Cygwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEAREIAAYFAkkkxUoACgkQpiWmPGlmQSNlMgCeKoWpCSbxPLMqh8rWdtlxqtr1
ts8AoIGGmglMABN9zpo6p2z2jCnUf2AD
=Q1x7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread cygwin
Eric Roode wrote:
 I updated my cygwin the other day, as I periodically do, and I am very
 sorry I did so.  Here are some of the problems I have encountered.

It has always been the advice of this list that you should read the
announcements on cygwin-announce@ and cygwin-xfree-announce before
upgrading blindly.  Now, often you can get away with /not/ doing that, d
nothing bad will happen.  But if I ran setup, and saw 157 new packages
about to be upgraded...I might want to investigate a little before
clicking continue.

http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree-announce/2008-11/msg0.html

But, as always, it's up to you. We'll happily refund all the money you paid.

--
Chuck

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RE: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Back, Michael
Christopher Faylor did utter a clarion call of great frustration unto the 
heavens:
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 03:16:05PM -0800, Back, Michael wrote:
Chuck wrote:
I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question
has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list.

Perhaps because people can't find the info.  they need in any other way
than posting to this list?

You seem to be missing the point that if it was discussed in the list
you can use the list archive as a resource.  You don't have to just
blindly send email assuming that no one else would ever have asked the
same question.

My point is that relying on a user to have the forethought, time, and patience 
to scour through a mailing list archive is probably not the most effective or 
convenient form of communicating common upgrade problems and solutions.

Michael

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Larry Hall (Cygwin X)

Back, Michael wrote:

Christopher Faylor did utter a clarion call of great frustration unto the 
heavens:

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 03:16:05PM -0800, Back, Michael wrote:

Chuck wrote:

I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question
has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list.

Perhaps because people can't find the info.  they need in any other way
than posting to this list?

You seem to be missing the point that if it was discussed in the list
you can use the list archive as a resource.  You don't have to just
blindly send email assuming that no one else would ever have asked the
same question.


My point is that relying on a user to have the forethought, time, and
patience to scour through a mailing list archive is probably not the most
effective or convenient form of communicating common upgrade problems and
solutions.


Probably not surprisingly, this idea is not new.  It's been discussed
before and only remains as a topic for discussion because of a lack of
resources to help make the situation better.  If anyone would like to
research, monitor, and dig in to help make the documentation or
install tools better and more helpful, I expect that would be welcome.
Keep in mind that where Cygwin/X is concerned, there has been no
maintainer for _years_ so I think we can all anticipate the amount of
work to get all the packages upgraded, documented, and spiffy is
significant.  And there will be some bumps along the way...


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Larry Hall  http://www.rfk.com
RFK Partners, Inc.  (508) 893-9779 - RFK Office
216 Dalton Rd.  (508) 429-6305 - FAX
Holliston, MA 01746

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Re: Upgrade woes.

2008-11-19 Thread Christopher Faylor
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 06:58:05PM -0800, Back, Michael wrote:
Christopher Faylor did utter a clarion call of great frustration unto the 
heavens:
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 03:16:05PM -0800, Back, Michael wrote:
Chuck wrote:
I think the frustration on some people's behalf is that this question
has been asked (and answered) maybe 50 times already on the list.

Perhaps because people can't find the info.  they need in any other way
than posting to this list?

You seem to be missing the point that if it was discussed in the list
you can use the list archive as a resource.  You don't have to just
blindly send email assuming that no one else would ever have asked the
same question.

My point is that relying on a user to have the forethought, time, and
patience to scour through a mailing list archive is probably not the
most effective or convenient form of communicating common upgrade
problems and solutions.

No one is relying on the user to do anything.  You seemed to be
asserting that the only way to get help is to send email without
bothering to check if someone has already asked the question.  One
glance at the mailing list archives for this list would show that
something was going on and a little bit of effort would get questions
answered without having to send email and then wait for a response.

Yaakov and Jon are modifying documentation as they go along.  They have
mentioned that in this mailing list and you can see activity on the
xfree.cygwin.com web site.  Having to stop to answer the same question
repeatedly isn't really helping them in that task.

cgf

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