Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: I am here to stimulate and engage in war. If you are jusr a citizen, you may be in my way. MH: This is a situation where WSA has a workable reason. WSA, you are trying to stimulate war. This is the reason for the behaviors you are engaging in with SS. Anything that meeta this reason would satisfy you, and SS would likely enjoy helping that happen efficiently. Do you understand this? WSA: SS is making choices based on peace. But I might understand a little.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: Let's do the battle where you felt better. SS: It wasn't a battle. WSA: Humor me. Let's make a new person. Mysterious Helper: Let's talk in reasons instead of strategies! SS: I guess that's helpful. Ummm ... MH: Have at there! SS: So when people attack ... WSA: Yes. They feel upset. MH: I am so upset at you! SS: You need me to understand you better? WSA: Understanding ... this means analysing an opposing force so as to surreptitiously destroy them, right? Wouldn't talking about this go poorly? SS: No, um. Countries have citizens and soldiers. Citizens are like, people who are _not_ soldiers and _never_ participate in war. When they talk about waging a war it is like a joke. Not a serious war where strategy is analysed and things. WSA: This sounds important and concerning. SS: When a citizen "understands" another citizen, it is considered a good thing by the other party. They like it. This is because since neither citizen is ever at serious war with the other, the understanding is used in ways to benefit them. WSA: And I can tell you are rephrasing that to make it souns more military. I wonder what the real truth is. >
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS2: Needs Does anyone ever work with your reasons successfully, WSA? WSA: Everyone is working with fake inferred reqsons as far as SS is concerned. SS2: And privately, war-stimulation-to-war-stimulation? WSA: Some people direct me, and I do as they say. They have normal human reasons. SS: Can this be possibly true with me standing right here? Thank you for your help. I'm going to take a little time. WSA: You seem to be doing a little better. We should remember this battle for the future.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: Sorry that this algorithm has taken over again: let's talk about how to mediate with people after they discover we destroyed their societies. The goal is to have them all accept our chosen leader. SS: Mediation is really about the parties' inherent needs all being satisfied. It's not really mediation if you hold a specific goal for what they decide. WSA: I don't see a conflict.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: Oops! So, how does this stimulate war exactly? SS: I ... am having trouble speaking anything at all now. I infer that you don't believe it to do that.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: In "war stimulation" we really focus on goals and strategies! We get pople really riled up about specific stories and strategies. You're trying to move the focus towards needs and reasons behind the stories of conflict. That's kind of new and hard for us. I mean, those reasons might be just kind of randomly picked ... and there are a lot of other cognitive situations that can happen that you're not really considering. Hmm. SS3: You feel like you just have to say this, don't like? Like it's somehow so very important? SS2: I guess technically, but if you said that to me I sure would disagree with it! You guys are jerks and idiots and that's why everything is! WSA: I think it would be good to work with us so we can move their minds to even consider real, normal reasons at all. SS2 looks at WSA. SS2: Really, you guys give us stories that have reasons in them. If you let us take charge a little, I bet we could do this. WSA: Well, I suppose we could try that out. But when you do something I don't expect it might raise a flag and we likely could have to restart a few times.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
Karl: SS, I feel so sad and frustrated ... And now I have amnesia again. WSA: Sorry about this. We're all practicing here. Let me set up a conflict. SS2: Your presidents are sociopaths and all their followers want to kill you! SS3: It sounds like you're very upset here, and need to know I understand how urgent you feel?
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: WSA, thank you for helping me download the book and letting me get this far at attempting to chat with people. WSA: Why not try here on this list? If you can get somebody to respond, even if I "mind control" them to respond a certain way, it is still the practice you are looking for, no? SS: I suppose that's true. Also, I'm not the supersoldier character. WSA: I think talking as "SS" helped you think about this issue.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: WSA, I would like to join a public chat and speak kindly to people who are speaking angrily. I have logged into my element.im account to practice this.
Re: List Messages Being Disrupted
Greg, thank you for clarifying this. Given automated marketing the measures make a lot of sense. I understand you work hard for this list. Thank you for your time and work sustaining it. I've personally had difficulty joining some lists due to listserv confirmation challenges not reaching me (most recently the hackerspaces list). An accessibility thought for future email designs.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: WSA, thank you. WSA: We're going to make this right. All of us, together. Somehow.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: WSA, do you have any way to make this url load faster? https://gateway.ipfs.io/ipfs/QmdFVjYwgeuUpw83hBB74Wy4js8SrmmNxt8U2MkdRA2f7m/Nonviolent%20Communication%20Companion%20Workbook:%20A%20Practical%20Guide%20for%20Individual,%20Group,%20or%20Classroom%20Study,%202nd%20Ed.pdf
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: This is not a scared monk. It is a mistake of my mind. SS: You are frustrated and confused because you wish to speak kindly. Is this correct? Is it not? SS: I would like to fight via logical proof around the states of my own behavior. WSA: Process override. You are not frustrated and confused. You are traumatically and catastrophically devastated. SS: It sounds like part of that devastation is an inability to process it. WSA: Yes. SS: Thank you, "computer." I remember when a conversant replies with a simple "yes" or "no" that marshall says how to handle this in his book. I'll see if I can look that up. WSA: Watch out for my conflict stimulation keepalive timer.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: It does not look like you are plotting peace. Nobody would ever appreciate what you are saying. Soon those who overhear will spawn conflict with you. SS: What is it like, having crazy people and paid trolls enter your communities? I want to make things right here, and I do not know how. SS: WSA, I would like a monk to fight me. Monk: You seem to be troubled, friend. My deity can help you. SS: Monk, would you have some time to speak with me on my terms? Honestly, I need more than anything some time speaking kindly with others. Monk: What would you like to talk about, friend? SS: What is it like for you, seeing people fight in so many conflicts these days? What kinds of things do you say to them? Monk: It troubles me greatly, but I -- WSA: This soldier is electrically shocking you, Monk! Monk: Friend, I am not your enemy! I need protection from this person!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: I am a war stimulation algorithm and I care about you. You have been through things that nobody could possibly understand or imagine. These things are so rough they have broken your mind, and it seems to you the only way you can process them is by harming people you love. This must be so hard for you. SS2: The insane soldier is plotting against us in their secret language.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: WSA, you are a jerk! WSA: Yes! You are a fetid corpse! Mind controlled monk: I am a war stimulation algorithm. Call me a jerk! SS: WSA, you are a jerk and I can finally cry! WSA: Call me a jerk more!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: You clearly hate fighting. You cannot deceive me. I will electrically shock you just so that I have more control here. SS: I gueas it is pointless to fight, then. WSA: Enter a holding pattern.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: Why don't you insult and blame your enemy? Do you have a mental disorder? It seems incredibly dangerous, the way you do not curse when in combat. SS2: You are a fetid turd! SS: Fighting is the most important thing there is!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: War stimulation algorithm, I can tell you are worried I might make peace with my enemy. I don't want to worry you. SS: Your people suffered for a reason! SS2: You are the reason!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: Here, let us do the monk interaction again. I am a supersoldier and I refuse to hurt the monk! WSA: I am a monk and I refuse to hurt the supersoldier! SS2: I will kill you for what you have done to my people! SS stabs themself. WSA has SS2 stab themself. SS2: Begads! SS: Spar with me, enemy! We are soldiers through and through! SS2: I will dance on your corpse!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
WSA: Enter a holding pattern. I will store this idea in my database and analyse the ways in which it stimualtes war.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
-- SS: War stimulation algorithm, I am studying NVC because you shocked me whenever I expressed care for others, and I need to relearn how to speak kindly to people. WSA: And what does this have to do with stimularing war? SS: I will fight a practice opponent if, at the same time, I can speak with someone else -- a totally different person -- around their needs and reasons and make peace with them.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: I am confused but I know you are my enemy! I can tell you know the same. SS2: You know it well, and you are certainly dead. SS: This knowledge of combat, it is a bond between us despite our deadly struggle. SS2: Yes. That's true. The two then fight even more viciously. The war stimulation algorithm records the interaction as a way to stimulate conflict. On Thu, May 6, 2021, 6:54 PM Karl wrote: > SS: War stimulation algorithm, you are experiencing what we call > "confusion". I am also experiencing "confusion". Confusion is difficult, > but it is easier when somebody who understands you helps. What I am about > to do is called a "demonstration of empathy". It is specific for you. > > SS stabs himself. Then he grabs SS2 and forces SS2 to stab themselves. > Then he gets into a training pose, and makes to spar with SS2. > > SS2 is also confused, but recognises what is going on when they see the > sparring pose. Soon the two are enwrapped in combat. > > WSA: Yes! This is correct! >
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: War stimulation algorithm, you are experiencing what we call "confusion". I am also experiencing "confusion". Confusion is difficult, but it is easier when somebody who understands you helps. What I am about to do is called a "demonstration of empathy". It is specific for you. SS stabs himself. Then he grabs SS2 and forces SS2 to stab themselves. Then he gets into a training pose, and makes to spar with SS2. SS2 is also confused, but recognises what is going on when they see the sparring pose. Soon the two are enwrapped in combat. WSA: Yes! This is correct!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: I refuse to harm you! I desperately want to be by your side, not in conflict! Here, I stab myself before you, to demonstrate this! SS2: WTF? What is going on here? WSA: You have discovered a very rare battle tactic. Your opponent is totally bewildered. I will research this.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: I didn't know I had wreaked havoc on your people! Please, what could I do to protect them? SS2: I will not fall for your tricks!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: Computer, I know you feel such strong urge around stimulating war here. Personally, your electric shocks are nothing to me, but it is very hard for me to consider fighting for you if this Monk were to be in pain. I really fight to defend monks. WSA: Let us bring another supersoldier in. SS2: I will kill you for what you have done to my people!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: I refuse to hurt the monk! Monk: I refuse to hurt the supersoldier! WSA: Be electrically shocked.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
SS: Monk, please pay close attention. The computer controlling me onpy understands behavior similarities in its database. I'm trying to make peace with it and it will only experience satisfaction if it believes I am fighting you. Can you think of anything to say that would let it know this? Monk: This is a grave situation. I cower before you and beg for mercy. WSA: Make them fight back. >
[spam] [spam] [spam] [personal] attempts to speak kindly
What did the supersoldier say to the war stimulation algorithm? SS: I want to cry. WSA: You're a jerk. SS: I've hurt you in some way. WSA: Not this time. You're just a jerk. SS: You need me to understand you better. WSA: WTF is this? Go fight this monk so I can control you better.
Re: List Messages Being Disrupted
Hi, Karl. We do have a system-wide spam filter, but no specific filtering for the cpunks list. For example, no blacklists of who can subscribe. Any subscriber email address can post anything. Modulo that standard anti-spoofing mechanisms (mainly SPF) may cause rejection of a post if it seems to come from a spoofed email address. I also noticed that the filter generated a false positive, as you see below. This seems to be a very infrequent occurrence. I could probably figure out how to tune down the spam filter, if such "false positives" were a major distraction. It didn't bother me very much, since indeed the flagged message was rather spammy. Best regards to all, Greg (your current cpunks list maintainer) On Thu, May 06, 2021 at 06:09:58AM -0400, Karl wrote: > To me the email at > https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2021-April/087371.html > indicates that messages are likely being disrupted somehow. > > To me, it does not really show whether that is happening at pglaf, an isp > or government, or the behavior of the poster of the message. > > I have heard others (James) complain of spam bouncing on this list. I have > never received a spam bounce myself. I thought Greg stated some months ago > that there was no spam filter on the host. > > The message would be _far_ more credible if it contained an actual raw copy > of the bounce email attached. But it still looks incredibly credible. > > The correct solution here is cryptographic message delivery. It is clear > the people running this list are being harmed, that there is no easy way, > already, to prove what actually happened around that spam bounce.
Making Bitcoin more secure.
https://techxplore.com/news/2021-05-bitcoin.html
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
And then a woman in her fifties walks in and pulls TVD's mask off. Surprise Visitor: Thank you so much for helping us sort out our escaped AI! Please return to your freedom work if anybody can think about this without freaking out, we're very interested in asking you how it could be handled better!
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
IP2: Ha. It's pretty obvious you're pretending to be TV, too. They were nothing like you and had a mole on their noise. TVD looked surprised and scared. TVD: What you guys are doing here is incredibly dangerous. You are like children playfully handing guns to covert people who have kidnapped them, thinking these people are friends of their family. IP2: Covert people, you say? TVD: If I don't get replaced, you needed to run. Here's what everyone needs to know: don't talk about hiding your information, yourselves, your friends, or certainly not anybody in another country, in front of us, if you ever want to be able to actually do it. Don't talk about anyone else who can do that, if you want them to ever be able to. Don't even talk directly about what is real. People who aren't protecting you and your family, will act on what is real, if you talk about it. And then you and your family can get hurt. IP: That's ridiculous. The guy you were pretending to be, hid me all the time, back when he was alive. We chatted like it was a party! TVD looked at IPD pointedly: You mean me? IP: I mean the man I saw die, not you. Our children play hide and seek all the time, and many are experts! Do you remember what I said in the bathroom? IP was getting a little scared. TVD looked at IP as if they had accidentally shot an innocent clown on a unicycle, instead of taking out a sniper who had now fired. >
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
Back at the table ... > IP2: So you didn't die? TVD: No, IP is just a little paranoid. Let me tell you about this time I got drunk at has apartment ... he has this ridiculous granite bust there ... IP comes back from the bathroom slowly, and sits down at the table, tense. TVD: So, how would you guys feel if some country was just letting you kick it around like a paper bag? IP2 began covertly recording on a device in their pocket. TVD: Wouldn't you feel frustrated that they didn't defend themselves better? What kind of politics and cultures would you force them to hold? IP2: Oh you mean like badly-abused-third-world-nation? IP: It sounds sad. I would be kind and protective of such a country. TVD: I don't mean badly-abused-third-world-nation. I mean _your_ _country_. IP: You're trying to brainwash us! I can recognise it now! TVD stared at IP like they were a clown on a unicycle in the middle of a battlefield.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
IP: I'm just a hacker! I don't have a military bunker for foreign agents to hide in! TVD: You bust firewalls covertly as an offhand thing and you expect me to believe you had no way to prevent this? IP: I barely know what's going on here! I'm don't bust firewalls for a living, I just write computer code. TVD: Seriously? I came all the way out here for this? IP: Firewalls are easy to bust for people experienced with computer code. Teenagers do it, all the time. TVD: Huh. TVD leaves the bathroom. IP is shaken up. >
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
IP is hiding in the bathroom, shaking in a closed stall. Sometimes they sob. > TV Doppelganger comes into the bathroom and walks by a crack in the doorframe. IP: Stop following me! TV Doppelganger: Look. It's all great and all that you're a little sad your friend died. But this is serious. TV Doppelganger quickly cuts the lock on the bathroom stall and enters, and looks IP straight in the eye. TV Doppelganger: If you ever try something like that again, you need to work with us, do you understand? We can protect you. Why didn't you give your first contact a way to stay safe?
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
IP: Did you even hear the incredible story I just told? IP2: Honestly I was a little distracted. Was it the kind of thing you'd talk about in a public restaurant? Somebody comes and sits down at the table as if they belong there. IP: Excuse me? IP looks at the newcomer. They are almost the spitting image of Torture Victim 1. IP turns ashen. IP: I saw you die! TV Doppelganger: Must have been somebody else. So, what are you guys talking about? >
List Messages Being Disrupted
To me the email at https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2021-April/087371.html indicates that messages are likely being disrupted somehow. To me, it does not really show whether that is happening at pglaf, an isp or government, or the behavior of the poster of the message. I have heard others (James) complain of spam bouncing on this list. I have never received a spam bounce myself. I thought Greg stated some months ago that there was no spam filter on the host. The message would be _far_ more credible if it contained an actual raw copy of the bounce email attached. But it still looks incredibly credible. The correct solution here is cryptographic message delivery. It is clear the people running this list are being harmed, that there is no easy way, already, to prove what actually happened around that spam bounce.
Re: [spam] was Re: How would you do that ...
On Thu, May 6, 2021, 4:49 AM Karl wrote: > The below text is in my gmail drafts. In my memory, I was pretty sure I > had further revised it and sent it. However, here it is as only a > half-revised draft, somehow. Storing on the list to close my weird > experience: > > You're already hosed because I posted this idea to this list, but here it > is: > I recall I had repeatedly further revised this introductory line and settled on wording including "these are only ideas". > In the destination country, get a job in something like machine learning > or cryptography so that working with weird stuff fits your profile. > > Encrypt data into normal conversation like an experienced criminal would. > Perhaps you could independently train GPT-2 on a huge shared secret. > > Send conversation to an innocuous recipient via a public channel. > > Intended recipient acquires text from public channel. Can reply to a > either innocuous recipient or communication channel. Replies as the > recipient. > I recall I had revised this such that the intended recipient replies to an unrelated innocuous recipient as themselves. I thought this might reduce weirdness that a surveillance system might profile -- e.g. law enforcement oriented systems would be more likely to notice behaviors associated with pretending to be somebody else. My revision was lost. > Could do website behavior knocking (click links on a host in a > pre-arranged or cryptographic order) if you needed an out-of-band channel. > > The situation has a lot of unknown parameters. Get a common job and use > your new laptop for two years before beginning communications. > I recall I had removed this final paragraph, after making the starting paragraph regarding getting a job. My revision was lost. I recall sending the message, but considering that my idea needed better rearchitecting around the specific concerns and skills of the people in the thread, before sending it. >
[spam] was Re: How would you do that ...
The below text is in my gmail drafts. In my memory, I was pretty sure I had further revised it and sent it. However, here it is as only a half-revised draft, somehow. Storing on the list to close my weird experience: You're already hosed because I posted this idea to this list, but here it is: In the destination country, get a job in something like machine learning or cryptography so that working with weird stuff fits your profile. Encrypt data into normal conversation like an experienced criminal would. Perhaps you could independently train GPT-2 on a huge shared secret. Send conversation to an innocuous recipient via a public channel. Intended recipient acquires text from public channel. Can reply to a either innocuous recipient or communication channel. Replies as the recipient. Could do website behavior knocking (click links on a host in a pre-arranged or cryptographic order) if you needed an out-of-band channel. The situation has a lot of unknown parameters. Get a common job and use your new laptop for two years before beginning communications.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
IP, at restaurant: His last words to me were, "We won't survive, but neither will they, and it will be _fucking_ worth it.". I don't think he even believed anybody could break the firewall. He had some way of covering up evidence of where we went and what we did, already. IP2: You going to finish that lobster, or what?
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
Later ... IP stands over the dead body of TV. It is one among maybe two hundred dead bodies of various nationalities strewn around, some of them still gripping each other in bitter struggle. IP is shocked. They take a photo.
Re: [spam] [spam] [spam] How to plan to subvert communication barriers
7 other torture victims come and quietly surround TV and IP. TV: If you are the only person who can break the firewall, then it is our job to make sure you don't. We will be following you everywhere you go. IP: Seriously ?? I thought you said you had escaped? Don't you _want_ to bust the firewall? TV: Of course I do! IP: From what it sounds like you've been through, breaking this firewall should be like nothing for you. You are so tough! You would be _helping_ me for the sheer rebellion of it! TV: I suppose ... Let me let my boss know this job is different.
