Re: Archives are not lost (Re: [z...@freedbms.net: Re: [WAR] ...])
On Fri, Nov 01, 2019 at 07:04:59PM -0500, \0xDynamite wrote: > > Remember, all I INITIALLY wanted to do was to find the first instance where > > the topic of AP appeared in the list. Then I (and others) have quickly > > discovered what appears to be a weird omission of postings. > > ...an "assassination" of sorts. > > > I think many of > > my postings appear, just none (prior to November 1995) on the subject of > > AP.I cannot say much about other subjects, simply because I haven't > > looked at other threads, and I don't claim to be able to remember what other > > ideas were being discussed. > > This may end up being a substantial piece of work, which could take time. I > > ask again, could somebody find the date of the AP-essay appearance on CP? > > Maybe that will be a simple, discrete task that could be quickly done? > > Once a better picture of what data is missing appears, I will probably have > > no choice but to cry "fraud!!!". > > And I think we should pay attention to people, here, who AREN'T acting in a > > concerned fashion. What is their motivation? Does this possibility bother > > them? > > Yes. I was on the list back in the 90s, shortly after the WIRED cover > in '93. I find it odd. I have seen several strange internet-related > omissions and interference related to internet revolutionaries who > don't follow the dominant liberal or conservative political masters. > I, myself, have been a target on sites such as StackExchange where > they've tried to delete my content when they have a freaking VOTING > MODEL for the community to decide! > > Anyway, best of luck, fellow dissident, > > Marxos > Earth Now here's a concept that may be new to you Marxos - always look at the puppet masters, follow the money - you may find the ultimate StackExchange ownership and actual control (behind the scenes), close to the main stream media ownership model where ~94% is owned by one notable, smallish, notoriously pro-their-own-ethnostate, and outsized in influence, tribe. Hint: StackExchange may have experienced a solid "Shut it down!" moment...
Re: Archives are not lost (Re: [z...@freedbms.net: Re: [WAR] ...])
> Remember, all I INITIALLY wanted to do was to find the first instance where > the topic of AP appeared in the list. Then I (and others) have quickly > discovered what appears to be a weird omission of postings. ...an "assassination" of sorts. > I think many of > my postings appear, just none (prior to November 1995) on the subject of > AP.I cannot say much about other subjects, simply because I haven't > looked at other threads, and I don't claim to be able to remember what other > ideas were being discussed. > This may end up being a substantial piece of work, which could take time. I > ask again, could somebody find the date of the AP-essay appearance on CP? > Maybe that will be a simple, discrete task that could be quickly done? > Once a better picture of what data is missing appears, I will probably have > no choice but to cry "fraud!!!". > And I think we should pay attention to people, here, who AREN'T acting in a > concerned fashion. What is their motivation? Does this possibility bother > them? Yes. I was on the list back in the 90s, shortly after the WIRED cover in '93. I find it odd. I have seen several strange internet-related omissions and interference related to internet revolutionaries who don't follow the dominant liberal or conservative political masters. I, myself, have been a target on sites such as StackExchange where they've tried to delete my content when they have a freaking VOTING MODEL for the community to decide! Anyway, best of luck, fellow dissident, Marxos Earth
Re: Archives are not lost (Re: [z...@freedbms.net: Re: [WAR] ...])
I think I should add a comment. It should go without saying that virtually all the information which should be in the CP archive exists, somewhere, on the face of the Earth. Perhaps it is in stacks of 1.44 megabyte floppies rubber-banded together, in cardboard boxes, long-retired 500-megabyte hard drives, all in closets, shelves, basements, and attics of the world. Maybe even in QIC-40 backup tapes. The problem is that it is not easily acquirable, 2 decades + later. So, we should not take the eventual fact that this information trickles back as any indication that "no fraud has occurred". Some innocent loss could have occurred, sure, but I think we will be able to identify the difference. The person(s) who has attempted to defraud the CP archive did not intend that they could completely eliminate this information. They knew that probably thousands of copies of the truth would remain, hard to get, around the world. Instead, they seem to have been wildly successful at generating a phony set of data, leaving at least dozens or hundreds of supposedly-intelligent people in the dark. And so far, the only reason that this fraud has been detected is because I sought a simple, single-piece of information from what should have been in that archive: The date (and posting) of the very first appearance of the AP essay, Part 1, on the CP list. A virtually trivial request. And the archive came up empty. I don't expect that they actually generated any phony text, That would have been HARD, given its potential volume! What I think they probably did was to sort the correct archive information by 'thread', and then simply deleted any thread they chose to remove, over any time frame they wanted the information to "disappear". Or deleted postings by specific authors, or subjects. And, perhaps, delete individual comments that they wanted the archive to "lose". Effectively, they simply caused that information to 'evaporate'. And maybe they accomplished this by, in the end, "helpfully" donating what they called "a partial archive" to people intending to create an archive. Did they fail or did they succeed? So far, I think they succeeded well beyond their wildest dreams, Sorry, guys, but YOU'VE BEEN HAD! Virtually all of you! The big goal here is NOT to generate a new, correct archive. The true goal is to expose the people who worked to fake this information. At this point, the "archives" themselves must be archived, so as to later make possible a forensic analysis of WHO faked this information. Let's not get sidelined by claiming that 'the goal' is to 'fix the archive'. At this point, we don't know who they are, but you have a task ahead of you. And pay close attention to anyone who resists such an inquiry!! They will probably be the same people who have long caused trouble on the CP list. THEY are hostile to its proper goals. Jim Bell On Friday, November 1, 2019, 11:45:52 AM PDT, jim bell wrote: Remember, all I INITIALLY wanted to do was to find the first instance where the topic of AP appeared in the list. Then I (and others) have quickly discovered what appears to be a weird omission of postings. I think many of my postings appear, just none (prior to November 1995) on the subject of AP. I cannot say much about other subjects, simply because I haven't looked at other threads, and I don't claim to be able to remember what other ideas were being discussed. This may end up being a substantial piece of work, which could take time. I ask again, could somebody find the date of the AP-essay appearance on CP? Maybe that will be a simple, discrete task that could be quickly done? Once a better picture of what data is missing appears, I will probably have no choice but to cry "fraud!!!". And I think we should pay attention to people, here, who AREN'T acting in a concerned fashion. What is their motivation? Does this possibility bother them? I think that the inactive (former?) Cypherpunks should be contacted, to inform them of the situation. They are, or should be, very concerned if this turns out to be an attack on the CP list. And we can learn a lot, by learning specifically what information was concealed, We don't need to immediately regenerate the entire archives in order to figure out what happened Jim Bell On Friday, November 1, 2019, 02:02:31 AM PDT, Greg Newby wrote: Jim, others: Archives were discussed in the list awhile ago, a few times. Riad had some, and so did another source. I have a copy here: https://www.petascale.org/cypherpunks/ (a few different versions) The "to do" item is to slurp the archives so they are all findable among the other archives at https://lists.cpunks.org .. I will eventually do this. I looked at the Yahoo! Groups archives mentioned in this list a couple of weeks ago, and they seemed to be the same thing: just a long-time "subscriber" to the list.
Re: Archives are not lost (Re: [z...@freedbms.net: Re: [WAR] ...])
Remember, all I INITIALLY wanted to do was to find the first instance where the topic of AP appeared in the list. Then I (and others) have quickly discovered what appears to be a weird omission of postings. I think many of my postings appear, just none (prior to November 1995) on the subject of AP. I cannot say much about other subjects, simply because I haven't looked at other threads, and I don't claim to be able to remember what other ideas were being discussed. This may end up being a substantial piece of work, which could take time. I ask again, could somebody find the date of the AP-essay appearance on CP? Maybe that will be a simple, discrete task that could be quickly done? Once a better picture of what data is missing appears, I will probably have no choice but to cry "fraud!!!". And I think we should pay attention to people, here, who AREN'T acting in a concerned fashion. What is their motivation? Does this possibility bother them? I think that the inactive (former?) Cypherpunks should be contacted, to inform them of the situation. They are, or should be, very concerned if this turns out to be an attack on the CP list. And we can learn a lot, by learning specifically what information was concealed, We don't need to immediately regenerate the entire archives in order to figure out what happened Jim Bell On Friday, November 1, 2019, 02:02:31 AM PDT, Greg Newby wrote: Jim, others: Archives were discussed in the list awhile ago, a few times. Riad had some, and so did another source. I have a copy here: https://www.petascale.org/cypherpunks/ (a few different versions) The "to do" item is to slurp the archives so they are all findable among the other archives at https://lists.cpunks.org .. I will eventually do this. I looked at the Yahoo! Groups archives mentioned in this list a couple of weeks ago, and they seemed to be the same thing: just a long-time "subscriber" to the list. If anyone thinks they have unique content not listed above, we can try to hustle up a method to get a copy. Best, Greg On Fri, Nov 01, 2019 at 03:50:25AM +, jim bell wrote: > On Thursday, October 31, 2019, 06:21:01 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness > wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 01, 2019 at 12:30:02AM +, jim bell wrote: > > My comments follow: > > On Thursday, October 31, 2019, 03:45:00 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness > > wrote: > > > > - Forwarded message from Zenaan Harkness - > > > > From: Zenaan Harkness > > To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org > > Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 22:35:47 +1000 > > Subject: Re: [WAR] ... > > List-Id: The Cypherpunks Mailing List > > > > On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 02:47:08AM -0600, Mirimir wrote: > > > How about we implement a working AP system? > > > > As I said in a previous thread, I now believe that to be fundamentally > > flawed - that it will not achieve anything resembling justice, even in > > the long term. > > How did you come to that conclusion? I have long believed (probably as early > as 1995, though somebody seems to have LOST the archives!!!) that except for > a relatively short transition period (maybe a couple of years?) there will > eventually be formed a set of courts, at least vaguely similar to today's > courts, but VOLUNTARY to both the "plaintiff" and "defendant". > Why? The alleged 'perp' might arguably be innocent,. Or, he knows he's > guilty, but he believes that death should not be his punishment. (and maybe > he's right?) Or, the public who is willing to donate to see evil people > dead knows that the facts are often not clear, Or, maybe one person is > clearly guilty, but others who are not known are likely to exist. > The jury system may not be perfect, but it is probably the best system > devised by man to learn the truth..,.IF it is actually allowed to function > properly, > If you don't understand this concept, you must not actually have thought > about the implications of an AP-type system. _I_ did!!! Long before I > published Part 1, I worked through the implications, probably far better than > most people on the CP list ever attempted. I feel certain that discussion of > my AP essay on the CP list eventually included these possibilities. But now, > SOMEBODY has LOST the archive! Or, maybe it has been deliberately tampered > with by somebody or somebodies. > > > Fundamentally, the oligarchs and humans generally need a much higher > > level of education and discourse. > > > > "When all you have is a hammer ..." > > > > > > In the current climate of a majority of extremely dummed down > > "citizens", who are and feel disempowered, who cling to any iota of > > power that presents such as any public lynching, where intelligent > > "discourse" is simply not possible, restraint never exercised and > > certainly not possible to exercise collectively, AP would be at best > > a hammer to completely destroy society. > > > > > > I support anarchism, not chaos. > >
Archives are not lost (Re: [z...@freedbms.net: Re: [WAR] ...])
Jim, others: Archives were discussed in the list awhile ago, a few times. Riad had some, and so did another source. I have a copy here: https://www.petascale.org/cypherpunks/ (a few different versions) The "to do" item is to slurp the archives so they are all findable among the other archives at https://lists.cpunks.org .. I will eventually do this. I looked at the Yahoo! Groups archives mentioned in this list a couple of weeks ago, and they seemed to be the same thing: just a long-time "subscriber" to the list. If anyone thinks they have unique content not listed above, we can try to hustle up a method to get a copy. Best, Greg On Fri, Nov 01, 2019 at 03:50:25AM +, jim bell wrote: > On Thursday, October 31, 2019, 06:21:01 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness > wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 01, 2019 at 12:30:02AM +, jim bell wrote: > > My comments follow: > > On Thursday, October 31, 2019, 03:45:00 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness > > wrote: > > > > - Forwarded message from Zenaan Harkness - > > > > From: Zenaan Harkness > > To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org > > Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 22:35:47 +1000 > > Subject: Re: [WAR] ... > > List-Id: The Cypherpunks Mailing List > > > > On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 02:47:08AM -0600, Mirimir wrote: > > > How about we implement a working AP system? > > > > As I said in a previous thread, I now believe that to be fundamentally > > flawed - that it will not achieve anything resembling justice, even in > > the long term. > > How did you come to that conclusion? I have long believed (probably as early > as 1995, though somebody seems to have LOST the archives!!!) that except for > a relatively short transition period (maybe a couple of years?) there will > eventually be formed a set of courts, at least vaguely similar to today's > courts, but VOLUNTARY to both the "plaintiff" and "defendant". > Why? The alleged 'perp' might arguably be innocent,. Or, he knows he's > guilty, but he believes that death should not be his punishment. (and maybe > he's right?) Or, the public who is willing to donate to see evil people > dead knows that the facts are often not clear, Or, maybe one person is > clearly guilty, but others who are not known are likely to exist. > The jury system may not be perfect, but it is probably the best system > devised by man to learn the truth..,.IF it is actually allowed to function > properly, > If you don't understand this concept, you must not actually have thought > about the implications of an AP-type system. _I_ did!!! Long before I > published Part 1, I worked through the implications, probably far better than > most people on the CP list ever attempted. I feel certain that discussion of > my AP essay on the CP list eventually included these possibilities. But now, > SOMEBODY has LOST the archive! Or, maybe it has been deliberately tampered > with by somebody or somebodies. > > > Fundamentally, the oligarchs and humans generally need a much higher > > level of education and discourse. > > > > "When all you have is a hammer ..." > > > > > > In the current climate of a majority of extremely dummed down > > "citizens", who are and feel disempowered, who cling to any iota of > > power that presents such as any public lynching, where intelligent > > "discourse" is simply not possible, restraint never exercised and > > certainly not possible to exercise collectively, AP would be at best > > a hammer to completely destroy society. > > > > > > I support anarchism, not chaos. > > > > - End forwarded message - > > > > > > >While it may seem to be over 23 years 'too late', I will indeed answer > > >this last line of comment, assuming that I did not do so in September > > >1996:. > > >>From above, "I support anarchism, not chaos." > > > > >To equate "anarchy" with "chaos" is the classic error. In my AP > > I agree with that. > > >That was not my question though. Yes the colloquial use of the term > "anarchy" is generally chaos, thus my use of the term "anarchism" > etc. > > Well, people can and do misuse terminology. Yes, I believe that a large > fraction of people who call themselves 'anarchists', or who are called by > others 'anarchists', are merely died-in-the-wool Communists, Socialists, or > leftists whose favorite ideology miserably failed over the period of 1917 > through 2019. > > > >What I am equating is as follows: AP, with a very great potential for > chaos, and if not chaos per se, for a significant increase in fear in > the average dissident. > YIKES! > I suppose it doesn't occur to you. Why do we NEED "dissidents"? And by > "dissidents", I mean a person to openly and publicly opposes some existing > system. TODAY'S society needs "dissidents", because policies adopted by > GOVERNMENTS need (with the existing system) to be publicly opposed, in order > to force change. And that means public protests, including on the streets, > What other tools
