On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
How come? Because I am assuming the transponders are in the same
position on each bill. If you want to posit some spatial diversity
model, that helps, but not but a huge amount. This sounds too science
fictionish to actually deploy (transponders are not
On Thursday, April 11, 2002, at 07:07 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
[1. Agreed, this thread has lost steam.
2. It always amazes me how often people on this list will handwave and
speculate on subjects which a few minutes with Google will settle. Too
often, we're like the medieval academics who
On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
I could imagine airlines screening for this, though, as a big RFID splash
would invite you to become a target for random searches, and a
prospective target for confiscation.
Better yet, rather than nuke your rfids, try to extract them out of the
--
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
Go and read 'Repent Harlequin! Cried the Tick-Tock Man' by PK Dick for a
particularly slackless
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
How come? True, if a bill is idealized as being planar, you'll have
trouble on the plane. Spatial diversity will take care of that.
Otherwise, a common note has plenty of surface to do your thing on.
Especially at higher frequencies, like UHF and beyond.
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Hash: SHA1
Tim wrote:
Faustine wrote:
If, when I came here, I had made the deliberate choice to make an
effort at getting along by emphasizing our similarities instead of
differences, I dare say the motivation to dissect-and-destroy every last
comment I
Eugen Leitl[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
How come? Because I am assuming the transponders are in the same
position on each bill. If you want to posit some spatial diversity
model, that helps, but not but a huge amount. This sounds too science
Eugen Leitl[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
Remember that original issue was reading the embedded RFID in a stack of
bills from across the room with a portable reader. A possibly shielded
stack of bills.
The FAQ you cited says 60 RFID tags/s reader speed under optimal
consitions (I
Go and read 'Repent Harlequin! Cried the Tick-Tock Man' by PK Dick for a
particularly slackless society with this technology.
Might be easier to find if you substitute Harlan Ellison as the author, though.
- Sten
On Thursday, April 11, 2002, at 07:07 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
[1. Agreed, this thread has lost steam.
2. It always amazes me how often people on this list will handwave and
speculate on subjects which a few minutes with Google will settle. Too
often, we're like the medieval academics who
On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
I could imagine airlines screening for this, though, as a big RFID splash
would invite you to become a target for random searches, and a
prospective target for confiscation.
Better yet, rather than nuke your rfids, try to extract them out of the
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
How come? True, if a bill is idealized as being planar, you'll have
trouble on the plane. Spatial diversity will take care of that.
Otherwise, a common note has plenty of surface to do your thing on.
Especially at higher frequencies, like UHF and beyond.
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 07:43 PM, Faustine wrote:
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Tim wrote:
Physics-wise, it's a jiveass fantasy. No way are there micro-strips
readable from a distance in today's currency, and very likely not in
the
next 20 years.
I'm not so
Tim May[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which victims are
carrying a
wad, as would many salesmen (and JBTs
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Trei, Peter wrote:
So, yes, at the moment they can't scan your wallet very easily. But
this technology is developing as all others are. I don't know about
dealing with many similar tags more or less simultaneously, but some
of the discussed apps for stock tracking
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
The tags are passive. All tags (whether inductive or electrostatic) must
be energized from the outside. The pumping energy can be shielded, as can
the RF emission of the tags itself. The environment is noisy. The tags
send simultaneously from the
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which victims are
carrying a
wad, as would many salesmen (and JBTs looking to
Michael Motyka[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which victims are
carrying a
Trei, Peter wrote:
Michael Motyka[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which
Tim May writes:
I'll go back to lurking, as this thread, so to speak, is not
interesting to me.
(More interesting is reading Chris Hillman's page with his Categorical
Primer on it, http://www.math.washington.edu/~hillman/papers.html. And
to BL and JA, I downloaded O'CAML and picked up a
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 07:44 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Tim: I advise you to get up to speed on this stuff.
I think I'm more up to speed on small detectors than I want to be
(through my involvement with an ultrawideband company).
But I misunderstood the discussions about currency being
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 08:23 AM, Michael Motyka wrote:
Or more.
Not to mention that if you didn't want your money chirping its presence
every time a bad actor pinged it you could just disable the transponder
in the money :
mechanical pressure or repeated bending
high voltage
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:27 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
For paper money failure rates will probably be high anyway.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Remember, the primary app for this is
anti-counterfeiting.
Sir: ALL your $20 bills are failing authentication. Please wait
while I call
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
The engineers of such SmartWallets will not give them more range than
the protocol needs. Extra range costs money. If Alice is expected to
insert her Smart Wallet into a receptacle (for security, if for nothing
else), initiating the protocol from several
--
From: Tim May[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:27 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
For paper money failure rates will probably
On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:22:04PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
| If a stack of bills containing these transponders are supposed to be
| read from afar, way beyond what a valid bill detector is likely to be
| engineered to do, I'd like to see the physics worked out.
|
| Detection range turns
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Tim wrote:
Everytime I comment on your citations, you go into a snit about how
Gramps is insulting the whippersnappers.
No, it's all about the condescending tone you take when you use your many
years of experience as leverage against anyone who
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:22 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Detection range turns out to be function of antenna size - the reader's
antenna, not the one on the transponder. So if you have a big (eg,
doorframe size) antenna, you can do a lot better than the 'valid bill
detector' on the
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:22 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
The argument against shielding is that it is obnoxious that I
(or anyone) should have to go even further than I already do to
maintain even a fraction of the privacy which was naturally available to
every person 150 years ago.
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
So, if in fact we _are_ talking about each $20 bill having such a
transponder, then why are our arguments about how easy it will be to
shield against remote probing not valid?
Because the economics do not work. People simply aren't
knowledgeable/interested
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
A meter-sized antenna is not going to efficiently radiate
sub-millimeter-sized waves.
But it does give you brutal directivity. If you're truly working with
sub-millimeter waves, you might be able to discriminate between individual
bills with a phased array
30 seconds in a microwave on high, stir and rotate tray...
-Original Message-
From: Michael Motyka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 12:25 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
(A stack of bills, or cards, will have extremely poor radiation
patterns
from any but the top or bottom bill, and probably their patterns won't
be good either.)
How come? True, if a bill
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:58 AM, Faustine wrote:
If, when I came here, I had made the deliberate choice to make an
effort at
getting along by emphasizing our similarities instead of differences,
I dare
say the motivation to dissect-and-destroy every last comment I ever
make
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Tim wrote:
Faustine wrote:
If, when I came here, I had made the deliberate choice to make an
effort at getting along by emphasizing our similarities instead of
differences, I dare say the motivation to dissect-and-destroy every last
comment I
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Trei, Peter wrote:
So, yes, at the moment they can't scan your wallet very easily. But
this technology is developing as all others are. I don't know about
dealing with many similar tags more or less simultaneously, but some
of the discussed apps for stock tracking
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Eugen Leitl wrote:
The tags are passive. All tags (whether inductive or electrostatic) must
be energized from the outside. The pumping energy can be shielded, as can
the RF emission of the tags itself. The environment is noisy. The tags
send simultaneously from the
Michael Motyka[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which victims are
carrying a
Tim May writes:
I'll go back to lurking, as this thread, so to speak, is not
interesting to me.
(More interesting is reading Chris Hillman's page with his Categorical
Primer on it, http://www.math.washington.edu/~hillman/papers.html. And
to BL and JA, I downloaded O'CAML and picked up a
Trei, Peter wrote:
Michael Motyka[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9, 2002, at 10:54 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
Putting RF Tags in cash is one of those ideas with Unintended
Consequences.
Muggers would love having a way of determining which
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
The engineers of such SmartWallets will not give them more range than
the protocol needs. Extra range costs money. If Alice is expected to
insert her Smart Wallet into a receptacle (for security, if for nothing
else), initiating the protocol from several
--
From: Tim May[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:27 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
For paper money failure rates will probably
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 11:22 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
The argument against shielding is that it is obnoxious that I
(or anyone) should have to go even further than I already do to
maintain even a fraction of the privacy which was naturally available to
every person 150 years ago.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:22:04PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
| If a stack of bills containing these transponders are supposed to be
| read from afar, way beyond what a valid bill detector is likely to be
| engineered to do, I'd like to see the physics worked out.
|
| Detection range turns
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Tim wrote:
Everytime I comment on your citations, you go into a snit about how
Gramps is insulting the whippersnappers.
No, it's all about the condescending tone you take when you use your many
years of experience as leverage against anyone who
On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:59:32AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
| On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 09:27 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
| For paper money failure rates will probably be high anyway.
| So, if in fact we _are_ talking about each $20 bill having such a
| transponder, then why are our arguments
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
So, if in fact we _are_ talking about each $20 bill having such a
transponder, then why are our arguments about how easy it will be to
shield against remote probing not valid?
Because the economics do not work. People simply aren't
knowledgeable/interested
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 12:25 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
(A stack of bills, or cards, will have extremely poor radiation
patterns
from any but the top or bottom bill, and probably their patterns won't
be good either.)
How come? True, if a bill
30 seconds in a microwave on high, stir and rotate tray...
-Original Message-
From: Michael Motyka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Detectable cash notes a fantasy
Tim May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday, April 9
On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Tim May wrote:
Physics-wise, it's a jiveass fantasy. No way are there micro-strips
readable from a distance in today's currency, and very likely not in the
next 20 years. (I don't dispute that a careful lab setup could maybe
read a note at a few meters, in a
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