Re: Release Saddam now
-- On 19 Dec 2003 at 15:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If there is no one with legitimate jurisdiction to try Saddam, then he should be released. You are making De Sade's argument against natural law, to which his prosecutors rightly made the riposte, that if no one had the right to condemn him for torturing a maid, then no one had the right to condemn them for imprisoning De Sade. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG jkBw+1ppB608HDF/i3TGAf3V3tn86/2Zx81Bzzgl 41d/b0S3hcKy4vACibaBmS0tL0LXFt64XwXRKkQ4G
Re: Release Saddam now
On 19 Dec, James A. Donald wrote: -- On 19 Dec 2003 at 15:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If there is no one with legitimate jurisdiction to try Saddam, then he should be released. You are making De Sade's argument against natural law, to which his prosecutors rightly made the riposte, that if no one had the right to condemn him for torturing a maid, then no one had the right to condemn them for imprisoning De Sade. Interesting, did De Sade concur? ;-} Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ -- Visit proclus realm! http://proclus.tripod.com/ -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C UBULI$ P+ L+++() E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e h--- r+++ y --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type APPLICATION/pgp-signature]
Re: U.S. in violation of Geneva convention?
-- On 19 Dec 2003 at 19:50, Nomen Nescio wrote: I don't think I've ever heard that the Nazi prisoners where drugged, abused or otherwice tortured or mistreated and humiliated. Feel free to enlighten me on this. if you count a haircut as abuse, torture, and mistreatment, I expect that they were. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG LMgH3KrVc01cxKGLDz79xYZZW/NEDRXgsNqjdHep 4N3mLSiFXrfdllK8ARj0Y2Aj3QjP3ZT0efID0sD5Z
(No Subject)
Re saddam et all... http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EL19Ak01.html The war of words over Saddam Bush is quite amusing. The blind faith in ones govt structure and the willingness to support force that is in such extreme measure overpowering and statist such as the dropping of tons of depleted uranium high explosives shows that some on this list have not broadened their news reading beyond fox news. What courage is required to fly at 4 ft and drop the MOAB containing DU on essentially defenceless targets? How can people think that Bush would never harm civilians? It does not really matter if there are democrats in the whitehouse or republican kings appointed by courts. Just because you choose not to deeply examine the effects of the policies of your govt does not make them reasonable. Successful policies and reasonable policies can be two different things. Its possible to be both successful and reasonable. Its also possible to be successful and un-reasonable... http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html http://www.robert-fisk.com/depleted_uranium_links.htm Saddam merely gassed a few thousand people maybe. Bush senior's gulf war and now Shrub's fine legacy will ensure the slow torturous death of many generations of Iraqis and those American soldiers involved. The awful horrors of Stalin, Hitler and Saddam will pass with a few generations... the half-life of DU is in billions of years.Re American soldiers: Bush has cut medical care for active duty personnel as well as veterans.(link via google search: http://www.veteransforpeace.org/bush_cuts_vet_benefits_041503.htm) The childish blind faith in US statist instituitions does not make their pronouncements right.This is no better than those that blindly followed their communist or nazi leaders. The USA is at the heights of its power because of a well defined strategy of monetary and military control of the world (the dollar as the currency of international trade and its consequences, see links below). Only the people of the USA can prevent the degeneration of their vaunted state into a hellhole that will make the Soviets blush. The seeds are in place - fine grained monetary oversight, 99.99% unsecured easily intercepted private conversation, the shredding of the bill of rights, willing armies of police and other govt organized thugs, the impending death of the dollar as the only currency of international trade, the overvalued stock market with absurd PEs, the willingness to scam for a buck (Enrons, Halliburton etc), the lack of true capitalism and open competition in certain sectors [eg medical cos, microsoft]. Those on this list should know better. Note: I'm not suggesting that this is going to happen overnight, but as I said the seeds are in place... Some links to ponder: Why is the width of damage to the pentagon not as wide as a 757 (flt 77)? http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/index.html http://911research.wtc7.net/ http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/index.html Dollar: http://home.flash.net/~rhmjr/c1219.html http://home.flash.net/~rhmjr/index.html http://thoughts.editthispage.com/ http://www.justiceplus.org/bankers.htm Dollar and war: http://www.pressurepoint.org/pp_iraq_dollars_euro_war.html http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html USS liberty [or the lies the US govt will tell] http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/ http://www.ussliberty.org/ Former KGB head consults for US Dept of homeland security: http://www.impeach-bush-now.org/Articles/Americans/USSA.htm http://www.threadcity.com/cgi-local/social/config.pl?read=27 Of course there will be the chest pounders vouching for their wonderful state... about how all this is Internet garbage. Those unwilling to make a deep and wide investigation are unteachable. Bush needs you.
Re: the Kuwait issue is not associated with America
On 20 Dec 2003 at 12:40, Nomen Nescio wrote: Thanks Steve, I don't think I have heard this before. I googled on the text you quoted and found this url http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_andambassaprilglaspie22303.html and a few more http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html I don't know what to say. This makes me sick to my stomach. I guess one way of lookin at this is that U.S. played dirty and deceiving. U.S. is more or less the reason Iraq invaded Kuwait. I guess this is not told on Fox news. I see you did not actually read http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html; There are two versions of Glaspie's conversation. One believable, one unbelievable. One of which tells Saddam that the US is deeply concerned about Saddam invading, implicitly threatening him while explicitly denying any threat, one of which gives the green light for invasion. One definitely gives the green light. The other can be read as giving the green light, but would not be so read by anyone who wanted to stay alive. Needless to say, one version comes from more credible sources than the other.
fox news
http://www.fauxnewschannel.com/
Re: the Kuwait issue is not associated with America
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 20-Dec-03, at 1:04 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure what your motivation is for wanting to rewrite history, but that isn't what Glaspie said. I am guessing here that he just wants to believe that the US is acting in their foreign policy for the greater good, not for some selfish reasons. Nagging Conscience maybe? M. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP+Sg12lCnxcrW2uuEQIzawCgtpmGBBy4B3f+nrbVWXQ0eo6HlFIAoJ/6 L6YIZYQbQhuuv1kcM/WgomLX =u4/h -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: the Kuwait issue is not associated with America
I'm not sure what your motivation is for wanting to rewrite history, but that isn't what Glaspie said. There's a video interview I saw about all of this on 60 minutes (I think) where it was made clear that Glaspie did in fact say to Saddam that "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait." Regards, Matt-
the Kuwait issue is not associated with America
Thanks Steve, I don't think I have heard this before. I googled on the text you quoted and found this url http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_andambassaprilglaspie22303.html and a few more http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html I don't know what to say. This makes me sick to my stomach. I guess one way of lookin at this is that U.S. played dirty and deceiving. U.S. is more or less the reason Iraq invaded Kuwait. I guess this is not told on Fox news.
RE: The killer app for encryption
At 08:18 PM 12/19/03 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: [on onion routing POTS] trace that call, or payment for that matter. So if bin Laden were feelin' lonely one day and signed onto the network, you could give him a call, without him worrying about the missles falling within a few minutes. -TD If you ran voice analysis over every POTS call and then directed your missile at the customer demarc you'd get your man. A good reason to decrypt to analog the voice at the endpoint, eh?
Re: Sunny Guantanamo (Re: Speaking of the Geneva convention)
-- On 19 Dec 2003 at 21:21, Steve Schear wrote: I have direct instructions from the President to seek better relations with Iraq. [] Our opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country. But we have no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts like your border disagreement with Kuwait. [7] And then she proceeded to tell him that they did have an opinion, an opinion so menacing that it could not be plainly said. Similarly, if you get an offer from a mafia boss, and you find a horse's head in your bed, has he threatened you? Diplomats, like mafia bosses, make their threats by implication, not out loud. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG X+lkzU5AyyMRGqhdagmp2Shx9qHYuvKaYeWi1JiN 4lf43mqw0rS9IzY4mvIWScRSGNQ6NzcX0Kx+ZzpT+
Re: Sunny Guantanamo (Re: Speaking of the Geneva convention)
At 06:37 PM 12/19/2003, you wrote: In a message dated 12/19/2003 3:38:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Saddam was warned that if he took Kuwait, terrible consequences might well follow. That's bullshit. Saddam was told by our Chick ambassador (I can't remember her name) that the US had no interest in his dispute with Kuwait, in effect giving Saddam a green light. Yep, it was a set-up. Saddam Hussein summoned US Ambassador Glaspie and asked her to clarify the American position. I have direct instructions from the President to seek better relations with Iraq. [] Our opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country. But we have no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts like your border disagreement with Kuwait. [7] steve
Re: U.S. in violation of Geneva convention?
James A. Donald wrote: Well if there is no legitimate authority, then state of nature applies. Give him the justice that Mussolini and Ceasescu got. Hang him by his feet from a lamp post in central Baghdad for his victims to use as pinata Bear in mind that we could probably find plenty of victims of the Bush administration who would be willing to provide this variety of justice to America's dictator and a couple dozen of his closest Neocon advisors. Invading a country, and then turning its leader over to his political enemies for a quick show trial and execution, while singing the tried by his own people propaganda tune, hardly qualifies as justice. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
RE: The killer app for encryption
I'm not certain, but I think there are some MS certified modems which have a generalized A/D-D/A capability sufficient to handle voice. They do. And I'm not so sure POTS is going to be where things will be the most interesting...cable modem telephony might be where things get interesting. As for the Telcos allowing a call to be terminated on their copper, they'll never let this happen without going through the 5ESS, and recent legislation means they probablyt won't have to let you use some higher frequency band either. I've heard of some P2P startups that leverage the discovery mechanisms in P2P networks in order to setup a SIP session for telephony. It's interesting to consider the possibility that, depending on the P2P system, it's conceivable that one could call another user without having any way to trace that call, or payment for that matter. So if bin Laden were feelin' lonely one day and signed onto the network, you could give him a call, without him worrying about the missles falling within a few minutes. -TD From: Steve Schear [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: The killer app for encryption Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:42:01 -0800 At 03:47 PM 12/18/2003, Major Variola (ret) wrote: At 08:16 PM 12/18/03 +, Jim Dixon wrote: What exactly do you mean by peered IP telephony? What I'd like to see is a P2P telephony that also supports end-user gateways to the POTS. I'm not certain, but I think there are some MS certified modems which have a generalized A/D-D/A capability sufficient to handle voice. Although it opens up the possibility of end-user eavesdropping some of this might be thwarted by randomizing user node selection and detecting/reporting line impedance changes (indicating an extension going off-hook) to the 'client' wising to use the POTS. I suggested this idea to Jeff Pulver, now a VoIP champion, in 1999 but he thought it was too out of the mainstream to be interesting. Now that P2P is beginning to branch out from file sharing maybe this is no longer a far out idea. steve _ Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com
RE: The killer app for encryption
At 12:16 PM -0800 12/18/03, Jim Dixon wrote: Voice telephony requires delays measured in tens of milliseconds. A bit difficult if you also want encryption, anonymity, etc. Voice memo (messaging) systems are a way around this limitation. I don't know of any that exist. (Encrypted to receivers(s), mixed, and signed for strong pseudo-anonymity) Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz| There's nothing so clear as a | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | vague idea you haven't written | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | down yet. -- Dean Tribble | Los Gatos, CA 95032
Re: U.S. in violation of Geneva convention?
On 19 Dec 2003 at 11:00, Nomen Nescio wrote: Let's face it: not even the Nazi war criminals were treated in the way Saddam has been treated. So far he's avoided being treated like Mussolini. At 11:35 AM 12/19/2003 -0800, James A. Donald wrote: Oh no, he got a shave and a dental examination, the horror, the horror. While James has been wrong about 90% of this discussion (:-), I have to agree with him here - while the US was clearly propagandizing that they had him in their absolute control, they were also initially treating him in a quasi-civilized manner. The dude's been hiding in a hole in the ground, so checking him for lice is reasonable treatment. (I'm puzzled by the comment about the shave, though - all the fair and balanced news coverage still shows him with the beard) On the other hand, various spokescritters keep saying that they're going to stop treating him in a civilized manner, and that while they're not quite going to torture him, they're going to put him in a high-stress sleep-deprivation environment. I'm not sure if they're going more for the Vietnamese tiger cage model, or the Israeli army Palestinian Detainee model, or the Soviet purged general model, but it's No More Mr. Civilized until he confesses his crimes against the society. And in due course he is going to get an execution, which is exactly what the nazi war criminals got. In general, between the times the Nazi war criminals were captured and the times they got tried and hanged or shot, the US mostly treated most of them in a civilized manner, except during the active parts of the war where sometimes they wanted operational information. Apparently not the case here.
