Re: Hierarchy, Force Monopoly, and Geodesic Societies - the internet is a tree.

2004-04-11 Thread Bill Stewart

 It's a tree
 No, it's not a tree
 I thought we were sort of an autonomous collective!
 Watery marketers lobbing Powerpoints is no basis for a form of architecture
 Network engineers spend a lot of time making sure that their networks, and
 the Internet, are not trees.  Multiple peering and transit relationships
 make the network robust - and cyclic.
The core of the current Internet routing architecture in the US
is a couple of dozen Tier 1 providers who almost all interconnect with 
each other,
with each pair almost always connected in more than two places
(usually an East Coast and a West Coast location plus others.)
- Most of the Tier 2 providers are connected to at least two upstreams,
either both Tier 1 or a Tier 1 and a Tier 2.
- There's no well-defined boundary between Tier 2 and Tier 3,
but the Tier 3 types of folks may not be as diverse.
- Some big hosting companies are owned by Tier 1 carriers,
and may just get connectivity from their parent company,
but it usually still has physically diverse connections to diverse switches.
- Many other hosting companies are independent of the carriers,
and tend to have feeds from multiple carriers (usually multiple Tier 1
for the big players).
- Many big end-user companies have multiple large internet feeds
from multiple carriers; even small companies with a couple of T1s
often try to get some diversity (in which case the ISP run by the
local telco is often one of their providers.)
- If you want physically diverse access to your building,
you usually need to buy at least a couple of T3s -
some local telcos will still do diverse T1 access, but most don't,
or else they have it in their tariff rate but *your* street doesn't have it.

As Jim and others have said, it's extremely not tree-like -
we want to maximize the number of careless drunken backhoe drivers
it takes to take down our circuits, as well as maximizing the
number of equipment failures and operator mistakes it takes,
and trying to minimize the damage any problem causes.
DNS's namespace is tree-like, but the actual implementation of the
DNS name server networks is very forested and meshy.
The biggest problems are all at layer 9.



Re: Hierarchy, Force Monopoly, and Geodesic Societies - the internet is a tree.

2004-04-10 Thread sunder
Jim Dixon wrote:

Yes.  I know what a tree is, and I am quite familiar with structure of
the Internet.  These very pretty pictures certainly look like the Internet
I am familiar with, but don't resemble trees.
It is a tree. I'll give you a hint.  Think of this:

God is like an infinite sphere, whose center is everywhere and 
circumference nowhere.  Nicholas of Cusa.

It is a tree, but to see it, you'll need to find the root.  The quote above 
is a hint to where the root is.  Replace god with internet, sphere with 
tree, infinite with 2**32 (at least until it goes to ip6.)

So where's the root?  Scroll down for the answer.

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\ /
 V
























Did you see it?  No??? It's actually right infront of you.

Still don't know?  Ok then, keep scrolling down.































The root of the internet is your own internet connection.  Proof: If you 
were to iterate traceroutes over the entire ip4 space (good luck doing that 
by the way), and graph the results, you'd get a tree.  It's root is your 
default gateway.

:)