Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-18 Thread Thomas Shaddack
I can imagine some ways to deal with this. Have certain blocks of RFID address space assigned to specific companies, who publish what products they'll be used for. The same strategy AFAIK works for UPC/EAN barcodes, for assigning IMEI numbers to cellphones, for book ISBNs. For an example

RE: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-18 Thread Trei, Peter
Mike Rosing[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Michael Shields wrote: It adds up, especially in low-margin businesses. Groceries are a good example; unpacking every cart, scanning, and bagging is an expensive bottleneck. The process could be streamlined a lot if an entire

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-18 Thread Tim May
On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 01:05 AM, Thomas Shaddack wrote: They won't specify what *individuals* will get what tags, just that it's a $2,500 Prada handbag -- which still raises the crime concern. Why would anyone *want* to invest $2k5 to a lousy handbag? There are LOTS of more useful

RE: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-17 Thread Mike Rosing
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Trei, Peter wrote: You're not thinking this through. As the item goes through the door (in either direction) the check is made Is this individual tag on this store's 'unsold inventory' list?. If so, raise the alarm. The tags are not fungible; they each have a unique

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-17 Thread Mike Rosing
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Declan McCullagh wrote: I can imagine some ways to deal with this. Have certain blocks of RFID address space assigned to specific companies, who publish what products they'll be used for. They won't specify what *individuals* will get what tags, just that it's a $2,500

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-17 Thread Michael Shields
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mike Rosing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, and it takes a second or 2 to find the bar code. That's got to cost a few pennies doesn't it :-) It adds up, especially in low-margin businesses. Groceries are a good example; unpacking every cart, scanning, and bagging

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-17 Thread Mike Rosing
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003, Michael Shields wrote: It adds up, especially in low-margin businesses. Groceries are a good example; unpacking every cart, scanning, and bagging is an expensive bottleneck. The process could be streamlined a lot if an entire cart were scanned at once. There are

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-14 Thread Declan McCullagh
On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 08:24:35AM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote: I think economics would be a better argument. If the manufacturer can recycle the tags for inventory control they can save a lot of money. And public pressure. Here's a piece I wrote a few months ago that included some

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-14 Thread Harmon Seaver
On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 12:40:27AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 08:24:35AM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote: I think economics would be a better argument. If the manufacturer can recycle the tags for inventory control they can save a lot of money. And public pressure.

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-14 Thread Steve Schear
At 09:38 AM 3/14/2003 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 12:40:27AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 08:24:35AM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote: I think economics would be a better argument. If the manufacturer can recycle the tags for inventory control they

RE: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-14 Thread Mike Rosing
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Trei, Peter wrote: They don't want to deactivate them. Go back and read the SFGate article I linked in my initial post. They want to recognize when a loyal customer returns, so they can pull up his/her profile and give then personalized treatment. And what happens when

RE: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-14 Thread Trei, Peter
Mike Rosing[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] They don't want to deactivate them. Go back and read the SFGate article I linked in my initial post. They want to recognize when a loyal customer returns, so they can pull up his/her profile and give then personalized treatment. And what happens

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-14 Thread alan
On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Adam Shostack wrote: On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 01:22:44PM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: | You're not thinking this through. As the item goes through the door (in | either direction) the check is made Is this individual tag on this store's | 'unsold inventory' list?. If so,

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-14 Thread Adam Shostack
On Fri, Mar 14, 2003 at 01:22:44PM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: | You're not thinking this through. As the item goes through the door (in | either direction) the check is made Is this individual tag on this store's | 'unsold inventory' list?. If so, raise the alarm. The tags are not fungible; | they

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Thomas Shaddack
Hadn't knew about mu metal. Thanks. :) Could be a nice thing for EM shielding, especially of things like transformers. Don't go jumping into the abyss without some knowledge. Right. Later I found mu-metal is just a fancy name for Permalloy which I worked with some time ago.

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread R. A. Hettinga
At 4:24 AM -0800 on 3/12/03, alan wrote: Open up a place to clean your clothes of all those little RFID tags Oxpecker.com seems to be for sale, for a price... :-) Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Neil Johnson
RFID technology for libraries ...

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Neil Johnson
On Wednesday 12 March 2003 06:24 am, alan wrote: It sounds like there is an opertunity here for the right person. Open up a place to clean your clothes of all those little RFID tags and other buglets people are so interested in attaching to any object (nailed down or not). Gives new meaning

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Neil Johnson
On Wednesday 12 March 2003 09:13 pm, Neil Johnson wrote: RFID technology for libraries ... http://www.demco.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?PROCFUN+LWDCWEB+LWDC025+PRD+ENG+FUNCP ARMS+ZZWSESSID(A0200):29762251880047332521+ZZWNAVPAG(A0100):PROMO+DATESEQ(A0

RE: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Thomas Shaddack
One thing I worry about is a limited access tag - one which only responds when tickled with the right stimulus. Such a tag could be undetectable to the taggee. A nonlinear junction detector could be a reliable way to find it. You won't find a tag hidden in an electronics device (NLJDs are

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Mike Rosing
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Adam Shostack wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 10:22:14AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: The other motivator is liability. If I build the mugger's little helper, a PDA attachement that scans for real prada bags, then perhaps the RFID tag will be removed at the counter after the

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Major Variola (ret)
04:24 AM 3/12/03 -0800, alan wrote: It sounds like there is an opertunity here for the right person. Open up a place to clean your clothes of all those little RFID tags and other buglets people are so interested in attaching to any object (nailed down or not). Our Premium service includes

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Adam Shostack
On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 11:57:27AM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: | If I build the mugger's little | helper, a PDA attachement that scans for real prada bags, then perhaps | the RFID tag will be removed at the counter after the first lawsuit. | | Nice! Possibly, it might not even be necessary for the

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-13 Thread Tyler Durden
1972-73 doing Josephson junction experiments with superconducting quantum-interferometric devices, aka SQUIDs Isn't that a little early for SQUIDs? -TD _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online

Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Trei, Peter
http://slashdot.org/articles/03/03/12/0156247.shtml?tid=158 An anonymous reader writes Clothing manufacturer Benetton has announced that they will begin embedding RFID tags in clothing[1] for inventory control purposes. You can read more about this at SF Gate[2]. morcheeba adds more

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Thomas Shaddack
Seems the trend is here. We can thank Benetton for providing us with a playground for live tests of the capabilities and limits of the system. We have several ways for countermeasures. Passive countermeasures are shielding or tag destruction. We can locate the transceiver, then enclose it in a

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Mike Rosing
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Thomas Shaddack wrote: Seems the trend is here. We can thank Benetton for providing us with a playground for live tests of the capabilities and limits of the system. We have several ways for countermeasures. Passive countermeasures are shielding or tag destruction. We

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Thomas Shaddack
Don't know about those tags, but my laptop used to set off the library electronic detector. Some laptops carry a RFID tag, as asset control or how'sthatdamnedthingcalled. Newer Toshibas(?) have their configuration EEPROM chip (what is used today instead of CMOS RAM) as eg. AT24RF08 (check

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Mike Rosing
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Thomas Shaddack wrote: I heard these ones have range up to 1.5 meters. And you need much less power if you use a directional antenna (which can be part of some fixed installation). Easy to find the antenna then :-) Wasn't aware about RF tags being magnetically coupled.

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Tim May
On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Thomas Shaddack wrote: On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Mike Rosing wrote: I think you're over reacting. RFID tags only have a range of centimeters. You'd need a huge current to power them from more than 1 meter, and that's just not going to be out on a beach in

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread alan
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Tim May wrote: Regarding TEMPEST shielding - there is another, complementary approach for shielding: jamming. There are vendors selling devices that drown the RF emissions of computer equipment in noise, so TEMPEST receivers get nothing. Are there any publicly

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Mike Rosing
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Declan McCullagh wrote: This is incorrect. I interviewed one RFID tag maker who said up to 15 feet in free space. Presumably a beefier transmitter or a more sensitive receiver would allow longer ranges. I stand corrected, the one by Matrics looks very nice indeed:

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Tim May
On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 11:22 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote: On Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 01:53:55PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: Nice post. I guess it's just a matter of time before someone is charged with disabling the RF signature of one of these tags. I'd guess that here in the US, the rule

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Thomas Shaddack
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Mike Rosing wrote: I think you're over reacting. RFID tags only have a range of centimeters. You'd need a huge current to power them from more than 1 meter, and that's just not going to be out on a beach in a hidden way. I heard these ones have range up to 1.5 meters. And

Re: Brinwear at Benetton.

2003-03-12 Thread Tyler Durden
already some common electronics that emit in the same range as the scan, or if when defective (wink wink nudge nudge) will jam such a signal. -TD From: Thomas Shaddack [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: cypherpunks [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Brinwear at Benetton. Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:16:25 +0100 (CET