Re: Is email really that hard?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:17 PM, oshwm  wrote:
> On 22 February 2017 17:02:50 GMT+00:00, Cecilia Tanaka 
>  wrote:

>>oshwm wasn't being offensive or aggressive.  He/she  (I don't know
>
> No, i was being an arsehole :)

Arseholes are primarily used to excrete fecal matter, but also can be
used in more interesting ways and give pleasure.  Your choice.  :)

>>whether is a girl or a boy, never needed to ask it)  was just
>
> Is that important to you?

Absolutely not, you should be what makes you happy and comfortable.
The problem exists only when I need to mention you or use Latin
languages and need to make grammatical concordances.

> No, Eugen threatened to leave the list if we didn't do as they wanted - as if 
> they were doing us a great favour by blessing us with their 'presence'.
> Eugen's participation is for their own benefit, any benefit we get is a side 
> effect and can be gained from multiple sources.

If he decides to write and share technical stuff, I swear I will feel
blessed, sweetie.  I like his posts and it would be amazing to read
something more 'cypher' than 'punk' here.  He still writes on other
lists and his posts are interesting.

> This is supposed to be Cypherpunks, not cypher-rather-nice-gentle-ppl and as 
> such the noise is as important as the signal (imho of course).

I don't like too much noise, but it can be inspiring to some of us.
Mozart wrote an amazing aria inspired by his mother-in-law's hysteric
whining and it's pretty beautiful, impressive.  The aria, not the
whining, of course.  :)

> The calls for moderation have made me wonder if they are attempts by some 3rd 
> party (grubbyments?) to take control of something they haven't been able to 
> defeat and to subdue it to the point that participants walk away from 
> something that no longer stands for anything worthwhile.

So many possibilities...

> Although the irony of my response did give me cause to smile.

Oh, I know the feeling very well...  ;)

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 03:42:21PM -0500, John Newman wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Feb 22, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Mirimir  wrote:
> > 
> >> On 02/22/2017 12:10 PM, Razer wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 02/22/2017 10:54 AM, Mirimir responds to Eugen Leitl:
>  It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.
> >>> I hope that you're exaggerating;)
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> I'm just wondering if Eugen Leitl ever contributed anything useful, or
> >> he's just a lurker/whiner who hasn't contributed anything worthwhile
> >> himself.
> > 
> > I find lots of good stuff from him, but not since the list went to shit.
> > 
> >> And I concur. There's an attempt to hijack the list by alt-right
> >> trolls that seemed to begin when the majority of people who actually
> >> post supported io during his vilification by institutional slander.
> > 
> > Yes, that was the timing. But it's puzzling. I mean, are the alt-right
> > trolls part of the anti-io cabal? But Z*n and Alex were io supporters!
> > Maybe they were double agents ;) Or maybe they aren't really either, but
> > rather ED/*chan assholes, just in it for the lulz. Hard to say.
> > 
> > I'm reminded of Jack Barsky, the former Soviet spy who coded for years
> > for IBM etc.[0,1] This from the Guardian piece is very interesting:
> > 
> > | In the 1980s, Barsky’s most interesting potential recruits were
> > | radical rightwing ideologues; here, Soviet agents would pose as
> > | activists from the radical right. “There was one individual I
> > | reported on who I’m convinced would have fallen for that, because
> > | he was so strongly rightwing,” he says. But Barsky doesn’t know if
> > | any of them proved useful sources for the KGB; it was operational
> > | procedure that the agent who did the profiling and the agent who
> > | tried to recruit them were different people. He continued to send
> > | the profiles; the rest remained a mystery.
> > 
> > So I wonder how much of the alt-right are actually Russian agents. That
> > would be such a fucking coup! USA, pwned ;)
> > 
> 
> Interesting theory ;). Z*n used to post strictly russian propaganda bullshit, 
> then slowly converted to his current (as of when i blocked him anyway) Trump 
> alt-right anti-semitic fascist nazi persona.

 Maybe the FSB asked him to switch it up ;)

If I told you I ...


> I never thought Alex was smart enough to be his handler, in fact his 
> responses were so moronic and transparent it seems he's stopped posting. 
> Again, maybe at the FSB's direction ;)

Our ways are far too intelectuall for a schooled lad like yourself :D


> The wonderful world we live in.

Isn't it just.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 03:42:21PM -0500, John Newman wrote:
>
>
> > On Feb 22, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Mirimir  wrote:
> >
> >> On 02/22/2017 12:10 PM, Razer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 02/22/2017 10:54 AM, Mirimir responds to Eugen Leitl:
>  It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.
> >>> I hope that you're exaggerating;)
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'm just wondering if Eugen Leitl ever contributed anything useful, or
> >> he's just a lurker/whiner who hasn't contributed anything worthwhile
> >> himself.
> >
> > I find lots of good stuff from him, but not since the list went to shit.
> >
> >> And I concur. There's an attempt to hijack the list by alt-right
> >> trolls that seemed to begin when the majority of people who actually
> >> post supported io during his vilification by institutional slander.
> >
> > Yes, that was the timing. But it's puzzling. I mean, are the alt-right
> > trolls part of the anti-io cabal? But Z*n and Alex were io supporters!
> > Maybe they were double agents ;) Or maybe they aren't really either, but
> > rather ED/*chan assholes, just in it for the lulz. Hard to say.
> >
> > I'm reminded of Jack Barsky, the former Soviet spy who coded for years
> > for IBM etc.[0,1] This from the Guardian piece is very interesting:
> >
> > | In the 1980s, Barskyâ<80><99>s most interesting potential recruits were
> > | radical rightwing ideologues; here, Soviet agents would pose as
> > | activists from the radical right. â<80><9c>There was one individual I
> > | reported on who Iâ<80><99>m convinced would have fallen for that, because
> > | he was so strongly rightwing,â<80><9d> he says. But Barsky 
> > doesnâ<80><99>t know if
> > | any of them proved useful sources for the KGB; it was operational
> > | procedure that the agent who did the profiling and the agent who
> > | tried to recruit them were different people. He continued to send
> > | the profiles; the rest remained a mystery.
> >
> > So I wonder how much of the alt-right are actually Russian agents. That
> > would be such a fucking coup! USA, pwned ;)
> >
>
> Interesting theory ;). Z*n used to post strictly russian propaganda bullshit, 
> then slowly converted to his current (as of when i blocked him anyway) Trump 
> alt-right anti-semitic fascist nazi persona.

 Maybe the FSB asked him to switch it up ;)

If I told you I ...


> I never thought Alex was smart enough to be his handler, in fact his 
> responses were so moronic and transparent it seems he's stopped posting. 
> Again, maybe at the FSB's direction ;)

Our ways are far too intelectuall for a schooled lad like yourself :D


> The wonderful world we live in.

Isn't it just.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Steve Kinney]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 02/22/2017 11:52 AM, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 02/22/2017 08:22 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 07:38:16AM -0800, Razer wrote:
>>> Oh and fuck your html phobia.
>> Fuck htmlphiles. Mail is text
>> based.
> 
> Listmail was text-based back whenand  were
> current and operational hypertext markup language

One might /hope/ that subscribers are not using mail readers that
render HTML "mail" via a web browser with a HUGE attack surface.

That's not necessarily just an MS Outlook thing:  Once Upon A Time,
Eudora loaded up Internet Explorer to display HTML messages in what
appeared to be Eudora's own interface; I learned this when doing data
recovery and forensics on an OS trashed by malware that arrived via
that vector.

:o)




-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYrhj0AAoJEECU6c5XzmuqSk4IAMSFxcjqad6iEG55E2rH8nQO
D1bKgzVrYkvoTeuf60R8UoqSNO3mMD0xDW8lfeov8ADlRDpTUNce4PdckflVY1/a
0i5t/m+2O1B3Upo2CRxO7rbZzyO7Y5oUv5xaBH6g/q2YO+IfNJsDA3AY8goHrWsT
P/KW2kshSuEafP9iXY/h7FNyIymZ/v3VXWi98I4yKobSPjxTndmJWgRLo/drC8KG
s5020b/bMgx+sbt3sPDrFjagOROhhADQnB17Dg/8Gr0Mp6CDa8W69uSEkiqqvNP2
V33M29kQymAOuCThAxxeenfVcxK5dBSYr+3b+29U46mWduSrYVWjU3iQqydkdpg=
=kQNU
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:15:49AM -0800, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 02/22/2017 10:04 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> 
> >You're always very polite, Eugen,
> 
> 
> So are Nazis when they're handing you a bar of soap and pointing you to the
> 'showers'.

Just remember to get warm under your grampa lampshade after that shower
:)   (and don't mind the Jewish fight club soap either, but you wouldnta
mentioned it otherwise, being so scholarly and all, ha!)
http://bbs.dailystormer.com/t/grandpa-lampshade-thoughts-of-the-day-the-rat-extermination-squad/73388/20


Truly, terrorism rains in Amerifascista, Razer's wife speaks:
https://medium.com/@MarisaKabas/i-am-not-a-lampshade-5c347b4cd6dd

I note she (I'm assuming she's related to Razer) segues the "6 million"
into "happened in Europe" rather than "Happened at Auschwitz" or even
"happened in Germany". So the leaky bucket must be plugged:

"
My terror led me to reply that by some estimates, even more than six
million Jews were systematically murdered in Europe at the hands of
Hitler’s Nazis
"

But of course, ain't gonna get past the fact that them 6 gazillion
"souls" actually happened prior to WW2, as we now know, and as did the
New York Times in 1915:

 SIX MILLION JEWS 1915-1938 HD  -
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dda-0Q_XUhk

Oh well, facts were never particularly important to humans - "It's what
people believe that matters."

Never truer.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[grarpamp]

Various said:

> signing

Is never a problem, so long as it's done according to spec so MUA's
can handle it correctly.

> signing means badness

Signing does not dictate or modify the signed content.
If your signing tool does, it's broken, go find a new one.
If you author shit eqiquette to sign, go learn etiquette.

> short and long links both present

Redundant, post the long canonical one instead.
Wrapping long links is bad.

> wrapping quoted

You didn't make the error, so you don't have to correct it,
and doing so may introduce additional errors / info loss.
Any 'auto wrappping of quoted' function of MUA's / editors is
best left turned off given all the garbage input they have to deal
with.

> html vs text

HTML is bloated bling, if it can't be said in text it's probably
not worth saying.
If you want a weblog, print rag or photo art design studio... go
make one, and link to it. It if was good, people might request
subscribe to your email version.

> obfuscation

This does nothing adversaries can't and haven't figured out.
If you want private, go e2e crypto and pray you're not ratted.

> fonts

Support for UTF-8 is a bit different than that.
Downconverting to ASCII replaces information with garbage.
Don't do that. Upgrade your OS, tools, and configs instead.

> image / data attachment sizes

Shrink them back to Nixon era TV quality.
An under 20k image tells more or less the same story as a 1M one.
If it's science detail or whatever else you want to show with it...
crop out the zoom, or link to it, or ask. Same for data.
Of course there are exceptions for first emergency actions, yet
those are rare events.
Anything else, done with regularity, is offloading onto others.

> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette

Pretty good, except for...

- List software tagging the subject line... consumes space available
for actual subject content and is redundant... this is bad.

- Crossposting... has inclusivity purposes and is automatically
reference efficient while permitting further joint or local
discussion under that... not as universally bad as people claim.
Like those refusing to edit their own body etiquette, such claimants
are really saying they're too lazy to edit their own headers as may
be prudent when they post their occaisional reply to a crosspost.
If they don't reply, relavant crossposting is irrelavant.

> create filters

Filters don't fix the errors of friends you should be helping in the fight.
Mailing etiquette exists to strengthen comms.
If your friend is addicted to crack, you'd help.
Bad etiquette is crack and weakens your game.
Accept the help of your friends, break the habit, up your game.

As in language, common denominators in etiquette make it easier
for people to communicate, and to do so efficiently without undue
parsing cycles, interpretation, and loss.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:03:03AM -0500, Steve Kinney wrote:
> LOL - don't let the door hit yez in the ass.

:)


> So let's see - Signing posts was not mentioned as a Good or Bad thing,
> but given what list this is, signing /has/ to be at least tolerated.
> That means hard wrapped text with broken hyperlinks, if they are at
> all long:  Copy and paste twice to use the broken link, plus working
> around quote marks if the URL is in a reply.  Where a long URL and
> a shortened version of same are both present, why/how is a shortlink a
> Bad Thing?

And, of course, the answer is no. Just to be sure, to be sure ..


> Of course, if /only/ a shortlink is given, that presents issues with
> 3rd party tracking and potential abuses, i.e. spam, blinded direction
> to sites hosting exploits, etc.
> 
> Here's a comprehensive list posting how-to, which includes /some/
> guidance that's not usually considered relevant per CPunks community
> standards:
> 
> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Mailing_List_Etique
> tte
> 
> =or=
> https://tinyurl.com/jputln4

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 5:42 PM, John Newman  wrote:
>
> The wonderful world we live in.

Trump is not the only person who can build walls, my dear.  ;)

http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/funny-kitten.jpg

Ignore the trolls and be happy, my dear John.  It's the best way of
giving them a good answer.  Most of them have a pretty miserable life,
are just bitter losers with no dreams or hopes, who like to hurt
people for making them feel so bad as they feel.  They need intensive
psychiatric treatment and years of therapy, not our attention.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[John Newman]

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Mirimir  wrote:
> 
>> On 02/22/2017 12:10 PM, Razer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 02/22/2017 10:54 AM, Mirimir responds to Eugen Leitl:
 It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.
>>> I hope that you're exaggerating;)
>>> 
>> 
>> I'm just wondering if Eugen Leitl ever contributed anything useful, or
>> he's just a lurker/whiner who hasn't contributed anything worthwhile
>> himself.
> 
> I find lots of good stuff from him, but not since the list went to shit.
> 
>> And I concur. There's an attempt to hijack the list by alt-right
>> trolls that seemed to begin when the majority of people who actually
>> post supported io during his vilification by institutional slander.
> 
> Yes, that was the timing. But it's puzzling. I mean, are the alt-right
> trolls part of the anti-io cabal? But Z*n and Alex were io supporters!
> Maybe they were double agents ;) Or maybe they aren't really either, but
> rather ED/*chan assholes, just in it for the lulz. Hard to say.
> 
> I'm reminded of Jack Barsky, the former Soviet spy who coded for years
> for IBM etc.[0,1] This from the Guardian piece is very interesting:
> 
> | In the 1980s, Barsky’s most interesting potential recruits were
> | radical rightwing ideologues; here, Soviet agents would pose as
> | activists from the radical right. “There was one individual I
> | reported on who I’m convinced would have fallen for that, because
> | he was so strongly rightwing,” he says. But Barsky doesn’t know if
> | any of them proved useful sources for the KGB; it was operational
> | procedure that the agent who did the profiling and the agent who
> | tried to recruit them were different people. He continued to send
> | the profiles; the rest remained a mystery.
> 
> So I wonder how much of the alt-right are actually Russian agents. That
> would be such a fucking coup! USA, pwned ;)
> 

Interesting theory ;). Z*n used to post strictly russian propaganda bullshit, 
then slowly converted to his current (as of when i blocked him anyway) Trump 
alt-right anti-semitic fascist nazi persona.

Maybe the FSB asked him to switch it up ;)

I never thought Alex was smart enough to be his handler, in fact his responses 
were so moronic and transparent it seems he's stopped posting. Again, maybe at 
the FSB's direction ;)

The wonderful world we live in.

Re: Re: Is email really that hard?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

Sorry, I prefer this song, Razer.  It's my theme in days full of
frustration, when I think if I am just wasting my time among the
people.  Always think I would be happier living on a very, very
isolated beach, but the problem is I do absolutely hate heat, I don't
eat fish, and I am an Internet and electric energy addicted...  meh!
:(

==

Pink Floyd - Time

https://youtu.be/JwYX52BP2Sk

Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way.
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your hometown
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way.

Tired of lying in the sunshine
Staying home to watch the rain.
You are young and life is long
And there is time to kill today.
And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run,
You missed the starting gun.

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun
But it's sinking
And racing around to come up behind you again.
The sun is the same in a relative way
But you're older,
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

Every year is getting shorter
Never seem to find the time.
Plans that either come to naught
Or half a page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way
The time has gone, the song is over,
Thought I'd something more to say.

Home, home again
I like to be here when I can
When I come home cold and tired
It's good to warm my bones beside the fire
Far away, across the field
The tolling of the iron bell
Calls the faithful to their knees
To hear the softly spoken magic spells

---
"Don't let anyone rob you of your imagination, your creativity, or
your curiosity.  It's your place in the world; it's your life.  Go on
and do all you can with it, and make it the life you want to live."  -
 Mae Jemison

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

On 02/22/2017 10:54 AM, Mirimir responds to Eugen Leitl:

It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.

I hope that you're exaggerating;)



I'm just wondering if Eugen Leitl ever contributed anything useful, or 
he's just a lurker/whiner who hasn't contributed anything worthwhile 
himself. And I concur. There's an attempt to hijack the list by 
alt-right trolls that seemed to begin when the majority of people who 
actually post supported io during his vilification by institutional slander.

Fwd: Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

"Just because I ask a friend about him

Just because I spoke his name somewhere
Just because I rang his number by mistake today

He thinks I still care

Just because I haunt the same old places
Where the mem'ry of him lingers everywhere
Just because I'm not the boy/girl I used to be

He thinks I still care"

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/annemurray/hethinksistillcare.html

Rr

Ps. The reason I send in html will be amply illustrated when you have to 
scroll wy to the right to read what what this offlist troll wrote. 
The idea of having to hand-re-wrap other poster's text when quoted is 
laughable and certainly suppresses posting of context quotes.


 Forwarded Message 
Subject:    Re: Is email really that hard?
Date:   Wed, 22 Feb 2017 13:50:46 -0500
From:   Joshua Case <jwc...@gmail.com>
To: Razer <g...@riseup.net>




I'm subject to antisemitic epithets, misconstrued political affilations, 
tail-ended trolling by various and sundry vicious midgets like Juan and Zen, 
and ALL SORTS OF GARBAGE here, and you send HUGE BOILERPLATES of songs and 
cutesy platitudes in response, and I'M 'the problem'?


I don't think you're "the" problem, I really, if you can imagine it, don't 
think of you much at all. If you were sincere and not whatever is is that you are, a 
troll, I guess - I think you'd realize that we all have the same news sources that you do 
but I do think you're confused about what the intent of this mailing list was.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Mirimir]

On 02/22/2017 10:10 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:02:50PM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017, at 5:51 AM, oshwm  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
>>>
 Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation going I'm
 out of here.
>>>
>>> Bye then :)
>>
>>
>> Eugen,
>>
>> oshwm wasn't being offensive or aggressive.  He/she  (I don't know
>> whether is a girl or a boy, never needed to ask it)  was just
>> informing you  - in a bit ironic way, I admit -  that CP is a list
>> with absolutely NO moderation.
> 
> I really made a mistake back then. This list should have never been
> resurrected in the current form. 

Well, I believe that there have often been multiple cypherpunks lists,
some moderated and some not, but generally sharing messages. Back in the
90s, I was on a filtered list. The main list was mostly spam.

So now, the list is mostly alt-right spam :(

>> I don't know whether Riad is still the list owner and Greg is only
>> managing it, or whether Greg also became the new list owner  (never
>> needed to ask it too, haha),  but both are good persons, kind and
>> very, very, very patient.  I really appreciate a lot both, and hope
> 
> Tolerance and patience will kill even the best list. 

:(

>> nobody annoys them.  :)
>>
>> Take care, be patient and create filters, please.
> 
> This is not the way to keep a list healthy and sane. Pretty soon there
> will be zero traffic passing your filters.

That is a problem. I'm already dropping ~70% of messages, because I
filter on both sender and body. So sometimes, I miss interesting stuff
when someone sane has hijacked a bullshit thread, but doesn't redact
unwanted sender names.

That's easy to fix: redact bullshit and bullshit authors :)

That harder problem is disagreement over what should be filtered. So the
list fragments so much that there's too little activity on any fragment.
That's an argument for moderation.

> It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.

I hope that you're exaggerating ;)

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017, at 3:29 PM, Razer  wrote:
>
> He wants moderation? He should start his own list.

He is a member of this list, exactly like you, Eugen, hundreds of
different persons, and me.  He can say what annoys him here.  It
doesn't mean someone will answer to him or make something about his
complaints.  He has the right of expressing his preferences, as you
already did hundreds of times in the last years.  The problem is, as
he involuntarily confessed to the whole list yesterday, he doesn't
like the bullying.

> you send HUGE BOILERPLATES of songs and
> cutesy platitudes in response, and I'M 'the problem'?

I *never* said you are a problem.  Please, do *not* misunderstand my
words or try to corrupt them.  Already said it before, but I will
repeat,  if you don't like my messages, it's OK, use a filter and
forget I still exist.  I don't care whether you prefer to imagine I am
dead or hate me.  My life is mine, and I will live it the same, with
or without you.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Razer  wrote:
>
> On 02/22/2017 10:04 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
>
>> You're always very polite, Eugen,
>
> So are Nazis when they're handing you a bar of soap and pointing you to the
> 'showers'.
>
> You say you actually MODERATE lists?
>
> ROTF! Which ones?

Sorry, I think they will be better with no trolls there.  If I answer
your question in public, some people here, that really seems to hate
me, will try to disturb them, and it will be my guilty.  I need to
protect these lists because they trusted me enough to keep me on the
moderation, Razer.  And, sorry, I think it would be a waste of our
time to give you the references of all the mailing and discussion
lists.  Most of them are in Portuguese, are private and are related to
Law, governmental transparency, or hackerspaces.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[juan]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 17:10:44 +
Eugen Leitl  wrote:


> > 
> > oshwm wasn't being offensive or aggressive.  He/she  (I don't know
> > whether is a girl or a boy, never needed to ask it)  was just
> > informing you  - in a bit ironic way, I admit -  that CP is a list
> > with absolutely NO moderation.
> 
> I really made a mistake back then.

What mistake?   

> This list should have never been
> resurrected in the current form. 


Lol. You should have gotten lost a loong time ago Eugen. But
you can do it now anyway. Get.Lost. Or, alternatively, stop
being a despicable piece of fascist shit and learn the A of the
ABC of 'online' freedom.

But given your current 'worldview' you fully belong in the
pentagon's mailing list, aka the tor 'community' mailing list,
not here. 

Re: Re: Is email really that hard?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Razer <g...@riseup.net> wrote:

>  Forwarded Message 
> Subject: Re: Is email really that hard?
> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:35:51 -0500
> From: Joshua Case <jwc...@gmail.com> <jwc...@gmail.com>
> To: Razer <g...@riseup.net> <g...@riseup.net>
>
> It really isn't about "going" anywhere - you are actively filling up my 
> mailbox with shit. You have, not singlehandedly - taken a stream that used to 
> be useful and turned it into noise.
>
> What compels you? Are you an agent just plain set on disrupting coordinated 
> resistance by rotting useful paths of education with crap and noise?
>
> ​Razer, he's upset, feeling annoyed and frustrated with some of your past
messages to him, but he's a good person.  Forgive him, ignore him, but
don't spread more hate here, please.  If I forward *all* the aggressive​

​messages and crappy spam that I receive  - all the single days -  to the
list, I will become the first person to be banned here, hihi...  I
sincerely hope nobody wants to read messages saying I need "corrective
rapes" for being a "lesbian slut", a "nigger lover", or even worst things.
 ;)​

Bah, some people need to get a life...  and a brain!  ;)

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

On 02/22/2017 10:04 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:


You're always very polite, Eugen,



So are Nazis when they're handing you a bar of soap and pointing you to 
the 'showers'.


You say you actually MODERATE lists?

ROTF! Which ones?

Rr

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
>
> I really made a mistake back then. This list should have never been 
> resurrected
> in the current form.

Sorry, Eugen, the list didn't ressuct because it did never die, in
fact.  It changed a lot, and not to a better list, I admit, but never
died for complete.  It always was here.  :)

> Tolerance and patience will kill even the best list.

Yes, you're correct, but I do still believe that minimal intervention
or no intervention are the best politics to most of the discussion
lists.

Yep, I was and I still am a moderator in some dozens of lists, and I'm
doing it in the last decade  (a bit more, in two lists).  Being a
moderator is *not* fun and takes a lot of my free time, but I know how
it can be important to keep the things working well.  That's the
reason why, in the past, I accepted to help the moderation of some
technical lists, even not being the best choice for it.  The 'best
choices' were too busy to help their pairs or simply didn't want the
work, the responsibility and, of course, the complaints, kicks and bad
words.  :(

You're always very polite, Eugen, but this isn't usually the rule and,
sorry, I don't know you well enough to predict your possible reactions
when you're upset or angry.  That's the reason why I wanted to protect
Riad and Greg a little bit, avoiding rude messages for both, sorry.
They are *not* being lazy or negligent, they are just being
anarchists.  :)

> This is not the way to keep a list healthy and sane. Pretty soon there
> will be zero traffic passing your filters.

Maybe, but it just the future can show us.  For now, I still prefer to
keep my hopes in a better future and, maybe, in a better list.  :)

> It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.

Stay, if you think you can change the list and make it better, not for
the list itself, but for you, for other people.  You have a good
technical background and like to study.  You can share your knowledge
and will probably be contacted in public or private for others like
you.  There are lots of trolls, but there are good people here too,
Eugen.  A bit silent, I admit, but they are still here, I swear.

Go, if you think it will be better for you.  None of us can take this
decision in your place, only you know your necessities and your
limits.  In this case, wish you good luck and success.  Take care and
be happy.

In any case, you can choose read the messages in the list archive
only, picking the titles, without receiving all the messy messages.
If you need help, contact me in private.  I'm always late with my
personal messages  (the professional ones are updated, I swear!),  but
I will answer soon or later.  :)

Fwd: Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

 Forwarded Message 

Subject:Re: Is email really that hard?
Date:   Wed, 22 Feb 2017 12:35:51 -0500
From:   Joshua Case <jwc...@gmail.com>
To: Razer <g...@riseup.net>



It really isn't about "going" anywhere - you are actively filling up my mailbox 
with shit. You have, not singlehandedly - taken a stream that used to be useful and 
turned it into noise.

What compels you? Are you an agent just plain set on disrupting coordinated 
resistance by rotting useful paths of education with crap and noise?



On Feb 22, 2017, at 12:22 PM, Razer <g...@riseup.net> wrote:



On 02/22/2017 09:10 AM, Eugen Leitl opined:


I really made a mistake back then. This list should have never been resurrected 
in the current form.



You're trolling for a flamewar fuckwad.



Tolerance and patience will kill even the best list.


Get lost Fascist.



This is not the way to keep a list healthy and sane. Pretty soon there
will be zero traffic passing your filters.


YOUR filters.



It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.



Right. Get lost if you're not finding any useful content.

Rr

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

On 02/22/2017 09:10 AM, Eugen Leitl opined:


I really made a mistake back then. This list should have never been resurrected 
in the current form.
  


You're trolling for a flamewar fuckwad.



Tolerance and patience will kill even the best list.


Get lost Fascist.



This is not the way to keep a list healthy and sane. Pretty soon there
will be zero traffic passing your filters.


YOUR filters.



It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.



Right. Get lost if you're not finding any useful content.

Rr

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Eugen Leitl]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:02:50PM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017, at 5:51 AM, oshwm  wrote:
> >
> > On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> >
> > >Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation going I'm
> > >out of here.
> >
> > Bye then :)
> 
> 
> Eugen,
> 
> oshwm wasn't being offensive or aggressive.  He/she  (I don't know
> whether is a girl or a boy, never needed to ask it)  was just
> informing you  - in a bit ironic way, I admit -  that CP is a list
> with absolutely NO moderation.

I really made a mistake back then. This list should have never been resurrected
in the current form. 
 
> I don't know whether Riad is still the list owner and Greg is only
> managing it, or whether Greg also became the new list owner  (never
> needed to ask it too, haha),  but both are good persons, kind and
> very, very, very patient.  I really appreciate a lot both, and hope

Tolerance and patience will kill even the best list. 

> nobody annoys them.  :)
> 
> Take care, be patient and create filters, please.

This is not the way to keep a list healthy and sane. Pretty soon there
will be zero traffic passing your filters.

It's allright, I haven't read anything worthwhile here in years.



> 
> c.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017, at 5:51 AM, oshwm  wrote:
>
> On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
>
> >Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation going I'm
> >out of here.
>
> Bye then :)


Eugen,

oshwm wasn't being offensive or aggressive.  He/she  (I don't know
whether is a girl or a boy, never needed to ask it)  was just
informing you  - in a bit ironic way, I admit -  that CP is a list
with absolutely NO moderation.

I don't know whether Riad is still the list owner and Greg is only
managing it, or whether Greg also became the new list owner  (never
needed to ask it too, haha),  but both are good persons, kind and
very, very, very patient.  I really appreciate a lot both, and hope
nobody annoys them.  :)

Take care, be patient and create filters, please.

c.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

On 02/22/2017 08:17 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

Also, please don't attach large files unless unavoidable.
1.5M pic is _many_ plain text emails (hi Razer).



That I can do. For expediency I often 'constrain' the image sizes 
instead of editing them down to size.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

On 02/22/2017 08:22 AM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 07:38:16AM -0800, Razer wrote:

Oh and fuck your html phobia.

Fuck htmlphiles.
Mail is text based.


Listmail was text-based back whenand  were current 
and operational hypertext markup language


That's a lng time ago.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Georgi Guninski]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 07:38:16AM -0800, Razer wrote:
> Oh and fuck your html phobia. 

Fuck htmlphiles. 
Mail is text based.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Georgi Guninski]

Also, please don't attach large files unless unavoidable.
1.5M pic is _many_ plain text emails (hi Razer).

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

On 02/22/2017 07:40 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:

No fair filtering.


Don't tell me what the fuck to do.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Razer]

Top posted! OMFG!

I beg to differ about not putting spaces in links you don't want 
followed.  List archives are suck suck sucked dry daily for un-obfucated 
email addresses and links by all kinds of bot-sucks.


Oh and fuck your html phobia. Learn to view your emails in plain text 
and ignore the question marks caused by copying/pasting in subject 
lines. I'll bet the "Dominoes" from Chinese or Hindi characters you're 
too stupid to install fonts for make you apoplectic too.



On 02/21/2017 10:54 PM, grarpamp wrote:

In addition to not putting retarded spaces in links
which does nothing useful, you can also learn to
preserve threading on replies, which is actually useful.
Top posting, bulk quoting, html, shortlink svcs... all bad.
wtfppl.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Eugen Leitl]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:03:03AM -0500, Steve Kinney wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/22/2017 03:51 AM, oshwm wrote:
> > On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl
> >  wrote:
> >> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:54:34AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> >>> In addition to not putting retarded spaces in links which does
> >>> nothing useful, you can also learn to preserve threading on
> >>> replies, which is actually useful. Top posting, bulk quoting,
> >>> html, shortlink svcs... all bad. wtfppl.
> >> 
> >> Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation
> >> going I'm out of here.
> > 
> > Bye then :)
> 
> LOL - don't let the door hit yez in the ass.

Do you enjoy the current state of the list? No fair filtering.
Go reread it.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Steve Kinney]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 02/22/2017 03:51 AM, oshwm wrote:
> On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl
>  wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:54:34AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
>>> In addition to not putting retarded spaces in links which does
>>> nothing useful, you can also learn to preserve threading on
>>> replies, which is actually useful. Top posting, bulk quoting,
>>> html, shortlink svcs... all bad. wtfppl.
>> 
>> Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation
>> going I'm out of here.
> 
> Bye then :)

LOL - don't let the door hit yez in the ass.

So let's see - Signing posts was not mentioned as a Good or Bad thing,
but given what list this is, signing /has/ to be at least tolerated.
That means hard wrapped text with broken hyperlinks, if they are at
all long:  Copy and paste twice to use the broken link, plus working
around quote marks if the URL is in a reply.  Where a long URL and
a shortened version of same are both present, why/how is a shortlink a
Bad Thing?

Of course, if /only/ a shortlink is given, that presents issues with
3rd party tracking and potential abuses, i.e. spam, blinded direction
to sites hosting exploits, etc.

Here's a comprehensive list posting how-to, which includes /some/
guidance that's not usually considered relevant per CPunks community
standards:

https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Mailing_List_Etique
tte

=or=

https://tinyurl.com/jputln4

:o)





-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYragnAAoJEECU6c5XzmuqoaIIAK970aNzY6Gx6UItBg/iPy0O
SFkpkSKRtOFAXZdmpYLhTQkCVKrLkJhyt8s/Gl09LfgZmJAI2eE+eplTmIbHr+Kl
qVdNKEirCOuHRN216MA+xjvJxCPuCMHZ1JYslFWXj434bRBp9Mswp2EE2rLCDQKM
qXvQ28ROv4t4/HI1Q792rpAM0rq77wX8oZEN9yEQR3kmimzHld/nL9sjWi+yrr8e
gfUn6hpBz/7+wyFYY7NA5E/8TSw5UjQ+2bw/WS19NHCaL64v3OakmSTo5iVC/4QV
Oy8OHSUeIncUxbV6I7WdozqvQogSNJOOzXmtyblItESiTdS7UB1eAQtV6VGDkI4=
=kHae
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Is email really that hard?

[oshwm]

On 22 February 2017 08:34:43 GMT+00:00, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
>On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:54:34AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
>> In addition to not putting retarded spaces in links
>> which does nothing useful, you can also learn to
>> preserve threading on replies, which is actually useful.
>> Top posting, bulk quoting, html, shortlink svcs... all bad.
>> wtfppl.
>
>Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation going I'm
>out of here.

Bye then :)

Re: Is email really that hard?

[Eugen Leitl]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 01:54:34AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> In addition to not putting retarded spaces in links
> which does nothing useful, you can also learn to
> preserve threading on replies, which is actually useful.
> Top posting, bulk quoting, html, shortlink svcs... all bad.
> wtfppl.

Who is the list owner these days? If we do not get moderation going I'm out of 
here.

Re: Is email really that hard?

[grarpamp]

Same with failure to wrap lines.