Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Razer]

On 1/13/20 9:25 AM, John Young wrote:
> Complaints about list processing is a venerable troll of public
> masturbation.
>
>

I've never noticed any problems with Cypherpunks mailing operations and
I never in my life expected any listserv, newsgroup, blogging site,
anywhere, to be responsible for the maintenance of my posts over time.
There are cloud services that do that. Anyone who expects anyone except
an operation that claims to do that as a business ... expects someone
else to take care of their shit, is a mentally deficient child-adult. A
spoiled brat mentally-deficient child-adult.

Rr




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Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 1/13/20 10:41, Razer wrote:
> On 1/13/20 1:12 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
>> When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post?
> 
> WTF kind of listserv allows posts from non-subscribers? Never heard of
> any such thing, and the only reason I can see for that arrangment is to
> destroy the usability of a list and clog it's servers with spam instead
> of posts on the topic(s) relevant to the list.

Previous incarnations of the cypherpunks list did allow non-subscribers
to post, particularly anonymous remailers.

As far as "destroy[ing] the usability of a list and clog[ging] its
servers with [off-topic or irrelevant posts]", that's orthogonal to
whether or not subscribers can post though it does raise the bar ever so
slightly. I'm still trying to figure out why generic posts about
politics, particularly those that highlight race, religion/national
origin, or beliefs of certain people more so than the actual issue, have
to do with the nominal topic of what I'd expect a cypherpunks list to be.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 13:56 Greg Newby  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 04:50:51PM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
> >
> >   it seems that once in a while the confirmation messages are not
> set, or get lost. Big deal. You can check the archive to see if the server
> received your message, and if it did, you can assume the server sent it to
> all of us.
> >
> >   ARCHIVE
> https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/
>
> Yes, exactly. Check your spam filters etc. in case messages to you are
> eaten by your own mail system. Mail deliver to & from the PGLAF server that
> hosts lists.cpunks.org seems to be robust (i.e., I get notifications
> about various bounces etc., and there are surprisingly few problems).
>
> Note especially that GMail and probably a few other web-based interfaces
> *refuse* to show you a copy of your own posting, even if it arrives in your
> inbox.
>
> At https://lists.cpunks.org you can use your personal subscriber password
> (or ask for it to be set/sent), to turn on an automated acknowledgment for
> every message you send. There are a few other settings you can tweak there,
> too.
>
> But the bottom line is: check the archive, above (no login/password
> required), to confirm whether your message was posted to the list.
>
> There used to be a few situations where messages were silently rejected
> (such as when having too many cc: or to: recipients). I think we have now
> set things so that anything that is received, but not posted, will generate
> some sort of message back to the posting address. In other words, rejection
> or moderation or other failures to post SHOULD result in an email back to
> you explaining what happened.


Thanks a lot for being so didactic and patient, guys.  Love you both very
much!!  <3

Hope the complaints cease now.  Greg is doing a great work here, exactly
like Riad and all the others did before him.  <3

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[John Young]

Complaints about list processing is a venerable troll of public masturbation.

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Greg Newby]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 04:50:51PM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
> 
> 
>   it seems that once in a while the confirmation messages are not set, or 
> get lost. Big deal. You can check the archive to see if the server received 
> your message, and if it did, you can assume the server sent it to all of us. 
> 
>   ARCHIVE https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/

Yes, exactly. Check your spam filters etc. in case messages to you are eaten by 
your own mail system. Mail deliver to & from the PGLAF server that hosts 
lists.cpunks.org seems to be robust (i.e., I get notifications about various 
bounces etc., and there are surprisingly few problems).

Note especially that GMail and probably a few other web-based interfaces 
*refuse* to show you a copy of your own posting, even if it arrives in your 
inbox.

At https://lists.cpunks.org you can use your personal subscriber password (or 
ask for it to be set/sent), to turn on an automated acknowledgment for every 
message you send. There are a few other settings you can tweak there, too.

But the bottom line is: check the archive, above (no login/password required), 
to confirm whether your message was posted to the list.

There used to be a few situations where messages were silently rejected (such 
as when having too many cc: or to: recipients). I think we have now set things 
so that anything that is received, but not posted, will generate some sort of 
message back to the posting address. In other words, rejection or moderation or 
other failures to post SHOULD result in an email back to you explaining what 
happened.
  - Greg

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Greg Newby]

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 08:41:06AM -0800, Razer wrote:
> 
> On 1/13/20 1:12 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> > On 1/12/20 20:15, Greg Newby wrote:
> >> You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post 
> >> this message.
> > When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post?
> >
> 
> WTF kind of listserv allows posts from non-subscribers? Never heard of
> any such thing, and the only reason I can see for that arrangment is to
> destroy the usability of a list and clog it's servers with spam instead
> of posts on the topic(s) relevant to the list.
> 
> Rr

The cypherpunks list has only allowed subscribers to post since it moved to 
Mailman (i.e., years ago). When non-subscribers try to post, they get an 
automated response.

At least some of the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailers (CDRs) and predecessor 
lists allowed anyone to post, as evidenced by the massive quantities of spam in 
the cypherpunks-legacy archive (now at https://lists.cpunks.org).

My recollection (from later years of CDRs, when I joined) was that some CDRs 
restricted to subscribers. But some did not. And all CDRs would allow all 
traffic from all other CDRs (more or less...). 
  - Greg

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Razer]

On 1/13/20 1:12 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> On 1/12/20 20:15, Greg Newby wrote:
>> You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post this 
>> message.
> When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post?
>

WTF kind of listserv allows posts from non-subscribers? Never heard of
any such thing, and the only reason I can see for that arrangment is to
destroy the usability of a list and clog it's servers with spam instead
of posts on the topic(s) relevant to the list.

Rr

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Razer]

On 1/12/20 4:42 PM, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
>
>   Now is my turn, haha. I haven't received any messages for a day or so, 
> but I see that new messages have been posted. Wondering if I've been 
> unsubscribed somehow - or cock.li is playing up. 
>
>
>

I've been seeing your messages. Maybe the email relay server thinks the
copies going back to you are spam and shitcans them. Good luck figuring
out which relay, and even better luck figuring out how to contact and
convince the operator to de-list crock.lie from their spam list. The
domain name alone says "Spam that belongs in the the bitbucket".

Rr



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Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 03:12:57AM -0600, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> On 1/12/20 20:15, Greg Newby wrote:
> > You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post 
> > this message.
> 
> When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post?

Sometime after my posts pushed the "uncensored" boundary a little too
far for folks.

Sorry about that;  I'm sure you never noticed, but I'm a bit of a
compulsive boundary tester.

Shuffles off to find a brown paper bag...


PS: I also hoped to avoid World War 3 via the possible election of
Hillary Clinton, and amplifying her moral and legal crimes seemed to
be about the only path available... which you might say added a
certain .. intensity to my compulsive boundary testing.

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Greg Newby]

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 09:42:48PM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
> 
> 
>   Now is my turn, haha. I haven't received any messages for a day or so, 
> but I see that new messages have been posted. Wondering if I've been 
> unsubscribed somehow - or cock.li is playing up. 

You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post this 
message.
 - Greg

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[\0xDynamite]

  [twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
>>
>> >   yes, we got it THREE TIMES
>>
>>>
>>  https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html
>>
>>https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html
>>
>>https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html
>>
>>>you can check the archive before needlessly resending
>>
>>>But I only got it ONE TIME.  And, I notice that nobody else replied
>>>before the third time.  So far, you're the only one who claim you got
>>>it more than once.Let's get some confirmation.

At the risk of getting my head chopped off:  How many times did you SEND it?

I think what you're noticing is apathy that has grown in
America/Europe since the use of psychiatric meds, like prozac and
anti-depressats.  'Shit ain't free, and that stuff is robbing the
collective consciousness and turning us all into passive cows.

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Greg Newby]

Yes - I saw this, and will try to look into it.
- Greg

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 03:43:26PM -0300, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> D'Oh!  Pardon!  :B
> 
> Sorry for disturbing you WITH the list's problems, but may you help here,
> please?
> 
> >

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Cecilia Tanaka]

D'Oh!  Pardon!  :B

Sorry for disturbing you WITH the list's problems, but may you help here,
please?

>

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[jim bell]

 Yes, as I understand it UK has private prosecutions.   Perhaps someone from UK 
can explain how well they work.  I am pessimistic that they will ever be truly 
allowed in America, for reasons which are obvious.  "The system" would be 
effectively agreeing to be enforced by the rules they claim to be, but are 
actually not, ruled by.  
                 Jim Bell

On Friday, January 10, 2020, 05:28:03 AM PST, Steven Schear 
 wrote:  
 
 Much of the judicial and prosecutorial corruption could be addressed by 
private criminal prosecutions. 
On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 12:38 AM jim bell  wrote:

 My comments inline:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 02:38:17 PM PST, \0xDynamite 
 wrote:  
 
 >> I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve
>> ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve.  Which will NEVER occur.

>But you are possibly missing out on a problem AP *would* cause:  mob
slander of an innocent man.
You must not be thinking very hard.  First, I will point out that your comment 
is ambiguous:  WHICH "innocent man"?  An, why would AP CAUSE that slander?
If we assume you are talking about the innocent person described in the Reddit 
message I quoted, you seem to forget that he was given "mob slander" due to a 
corrupt and lying detective, not due to some not-yet-existent AP system.  And 
that lying detective knew he was enabled by a crooked judge, who had never 
given any policement worse than probation.   And if an AP system existed, that 
detective would have certainly been 'donated to death'.  So, why are you now 
saying that AP would CAUSE that slander?  Slightly more accurately, you might 
speculate that an AP system would not necessarily PREVENT that slander.   
And, I notice that you are carefully avoided quoting the large majority of my 
original post (and I'm not referring to my quote of the Reddit posting), which 
would easily disprove what you are saying.  I addressed these issues; you 
edited those points out.  Should I accuse you of dishonesty for removing them?  
I will re-post that material I wrote, below.  
 > Your AP has to be *perfectly* accurate of its indictments.  How will you do 
this without re-inventing "the
System"?
I would ask you to check all the discussion in the 1995 CP archives, BUT SOME 
CORRUPT PEOPLE TAMPERED WITH THE ARCHIVES!!!
The reality is that after a couple of years post-AP, there will be a series of 
VOLUNTARY courts implemented, to resolve these disputes.  They will have 
juries, and juries will do what juries have done best, find facts.  I could go 
on, but you would ignore it.  



>That's why I propose the Headline Target technique:  more likely to
get results, and more-or-less harmless if wrong.

>marxos
It looks to me like you just wanted to flog YOUR idea, so you chose to 
criticize MY idea, but to disguise your dishonesty you deleted a key part of my 
comment to make it look like you made a point, and make it look like I omitted 
a point.  Stop that.  
                      Jim Bell


--- the following is what I, Jim Bell, originally posted, minus the 
Reddit posting quoted 
My Assassination Politics   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm   proposal has been 
extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the 
Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses.  
Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, 
rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many 
people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these 
comparisons.  They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term 
called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of 
action.  Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but 
also choosing NOT, to do something.   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost   
I just read the following, from Reddit.  It is a seemingly small, but virtually 
perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my 
Assassination Politics system.
r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the story of 
his client, facing 15 years for a cop's lie. Fortunately there was video. 
Yesterday the cop got probation from Justice Chun, who has never sentenced a 
cop to anything else


| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the st...

1,474 votes and 144 comments so far on Reddit
 |

 |

 |




I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears.   
But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur.  Why do 
I say that?   In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be 
protected by an equally-crooked judge.  In an AP world, this crooked detective 
would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all 
that anybody could do to stop this.  And if a crooked judge tried to help 

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Steven Schear]

Much of the judicial and prosecutorial corruption could be addressed by
private criminal prosecutions.

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 12:38 AM jim bell  wrote:

> My comments inline:
>
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 02:38:17 PM PST, \0xDynamite <
> dreamingforw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to
> solve
> >> ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve.  Which will NEVER
> occur.
>
>
> >But you are possibly missing out on a problem AP *would* cause:  mob
> slander of an innocent man.
>
> You must not be thinking very hard.  First, I will point out that your
> comment is ambiguous:  WHICH "innocent man"?  An, why would AP CAUSE that
> slander?
>
> If we assume you are talking about the innocent person described in the
> Reddit message I quoted, you seem to forget that he was given "mob slander"
> due to a corrupt and lying detective, not due to some not-yet-existent AP
> system.  And that lying detective knew he was enabled by a crooked judge,
> who had never given any policement worse than probation.   And if an AP
> system existed, that detective would have certainly been 'donated to
> death'.
> So, why are you now saying that AP would CAUSE that slander?  Slightly
> more accurately, you might speculate that an AP system would not
> necessarily PREVENT that slander.
>
> And, I notice that you are carefully avoided quoting the large majority of
> my original post (and I'm not referring to my quote of the Reddit posting),
> which would easily disprove what you are saying.  I addressed these issues;
> you edited those points out.  Should I accuse you of dishonesty for
> removing them?  I will re-post that material I wrote, below.
>
>  > Your AP has to be *perfectly* accurate of its indictments.  How will
> you do this without re-inventing "the
> System"?
>
> I would ask you to check all the discussion in the 1995 CP archives, BUT
> SOME CORRUPT PEOPLE TAMPERED WITH THE ARCHIVES!!!
>
> The reality is that after a couple of years post-AP, there will be a
> series of VOLUNTARY courts implemented, to resolve these disputes.  They
> will have juries, and juries will do what juries have done best, find
> facts.  I could go on, but you would ignore it.
>
>
>
>
> >That's why I propose the Headline Target technique:  more likely to
> get results, and more-or-less harmless if wrong.
>
> >marxos
>
> It looks to me like you just wanted to flog YOUR idea, so you chose to
> criticize MY idea, but to disguise your dishonesty you deleted a key part
> of my comment to make it look like you made a point, and make it look like
> I omitted a point.  Stop that.
>
>   Jim Bell
>
>
>
> --- the following is what I, Jim Bell, originally posted,
> minus the Reddit posting quoted 
>
> My Assassination Politics   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm   proposal has
> been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on
> the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete
> analyses.  Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good'
> based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly
> replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years
> now, to do these comparisons.  They have utterly failed to do that.
>
> Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT
> choosing a particular course of action.  Making a decision requires an
> analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
>
> I just read the following, from Reddit.  It is a seemingly small, but
> virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to
> implement my Assassination Politics system.
>
> r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the
> story of his client, facing 15 years for a cop's lie. Fortunately there was
> video. Yesterday the cop got probation from Justice Chun, who has never
> sentenced a cop to anything else
> 
>
> r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the st...
>
> 1,474 votes and 144 comments so far on Reddit
>
> 
>
>
>
> I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears.  
>  But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur.  Why 
> do I say that?   In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be 
> protected by an equally-crooked judge.  In an AP world, this crooked 
> detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be 
> nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this.  And if a crooked judge 
> tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, 

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:12:38AM +, jim bell wrote:
> I don't know what you meant, "second 2 being replies".

This means that your second and third versions of the email have the
letters "Re:" (without the quotes) in the "Subject:" line.



> I tried to send this three times.  The first and second times, I received a 
> special confirmation email that said the server had received it, but 
> nevertheless it did not appear in any routine email sent back to me, as would 
> normally occur.The third time I shortened it to a substantial degree, by 
> shortening a quote from Reddit.  Only on this third attempt did it eventually 
> return from the CP list as would an actual posting.
> So, I still don't know what's going on.  

If you have a spam folder, check that perhaps... dunno, good luck.

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Cecilia Tanaka]

Jim, my dear, I also received 3 (three) copies of your message.

I am late and don't know what is exactly happening, but I got all of them
and your observations about forwarding the messages twice more because you
didn't receive the copy of your own message(s).

Tender hugs, take care!  Have an amazing year and an awesome life!!!  <3

Ceci

Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Zenaan Harkness]

I also got this one.


On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 09:19:46PM +, jim bell wrote:
>  [I am resending this, because while I received a confirmation from the CP 
> list a few seconds after I sent it, nevertheless after nearly 40 minutes 
> after this, I have not yet received the posting as would have been sent by 
> the list.]
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:40:40 PM PST, jim bell 
>  wrote:  
>  
>   My Assassination Politics   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm   proposal has been 
> extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the 
> Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses.  
> Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, 
> rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many 
> people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these 
> comparisons.  They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term 
> called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of 
> action.  Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but 
> also choosing NOT, to do something.   
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost   
> I just read the following, from Reddit.  It is a seemingly small, but 
> virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement 
> my Assassination Politics system.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app_source=share
> 
>  I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. 
>   But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur.  Why 
> do I say that?   In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be 
> protected by an equally-crooked judge.  In an AP world, this crooked 
> detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be 
> nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this.  And if a crooked judge 
> tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 
> 'donated to death', just as quickly.  And anyone who supported him, or them.  
> Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and 
> impossible in practice.  
> One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be 
> judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this.  
> Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than 
> today's amazing world.  
> When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' 
>  I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell 
> still believes in his AP idea'.  As if, they are somehow shocked to discover 
> that I really still support my AP idea.  Why should I recant?   Why should I 
> abandon my discovery/invention?   Does our world still have injustice, in the 
> way this current Reddit item describes?   Does our world still have 
> militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons?  Does anybody 
> (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems?
> I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve 
> ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve.  Which will NEVER occur.  
> Jim Bell
> 
> 
> - From that cite shown above:
> -
> "I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony 
> indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. 
> If convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the 
> liar only got probation.
> 
> "I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the 
> cage behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like 
> everyone I represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working 
> that day, & a file with his name & charges was handed to me.
> 
> "The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. 
> Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned 
> the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on 
> gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life.
> 
> "Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first 
> degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what 
> he was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail 
> directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court.
> 
> I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. 
> I told him his charges. And he forcefully denied it. “Didn’t happen. These 
> cops have been harassing me for months. I was parked. They pulled up. I drove 
> off. That was it.” I pressed him more.
> 
> “Why on earth would they make something like this up?” I asked. Cops lie all 
> the time. To justify bad stops & frisks, excessive use of force. 

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[Zenaan Harkness]

And I got this third one too.



On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 10:10:23PM +, jim bell wrote:
>  [twice in the last couple of hours I sent this, both times getting a quick 
> confirmation as was programmed weeks, yet NOT actually getting a return from 
> from the list itself.  I will shorten the quote below to ensure that this 
> isn't the problem.]
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 01:19:46 PM PST, jim bell 
>  wrote:  
>  
>   [I am resending this, because while I received a confirmation from the CP 
> list a few seconds after I sent it, nevertheless after nearly 40 minutes 
> after this, I have not yet received the posting as would have been sent by 
> the list.]
> On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:40:40 PM PST, jim bell 
>  wrote:  
>  
>   My Assassination Politics   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm   proposal has been 
> extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the 
> Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses.  
> Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, 
> rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many 
> people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these 
> comparisons.  They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term 
> called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of 
> action.  Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but 
> also choosing NOT, to do something.   
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost   
> I just read the following, from Reddit.  It is a seemingly small, but 
> virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement 
> my Assassination Politics system.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app_source=share
> 
>  I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. 
>   But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur.  Why 
> do I say that?   In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be 
> protected by an equally-crooked judge.  In an AP world, this crooked 
> detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be 
> nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this.  And if a crooked judge 
> tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 
> 'donated to death', just as quickly.  And anyone who supported him, or them.  
> Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and 
> impossible in practice.  
> One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be 
> judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this.  
> Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than 
> today's amazing world.  
> When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' 
>  I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell 
> still believes in his AP idea'.  As if, they are somehow shocked to discover 
> that I really still support my AP idea.  Why should I recant?   Why should I 
> abandon my discovery/invention?   Does our world still have injustice, in the 
> way this current Reddit item describes?   Does our world still have 
> militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons?  Does anybody 
> (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems?
> I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve 
> ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve.  Which will NEVER occur.  
> Jim Bell
> 
> 
> - From that cite shown above:
> -
> "I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony 
> indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. 
> If convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the 
> liar only got probation.
> 
> "I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the 
> cage behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like 
> everyone I represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working 
> that day, & a file with his name & charges was handed to me.
> 
> "The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. 
> Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned 
> the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on 
> gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life.
> 
> "Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first 
> degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what 
> he was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail 
> directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court.
> 
> I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. 
> I 

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[jim bell]

 My comments inline:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 02:38:17 PM PST, \0xDynamite 
 wrote:  
 
 >> I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve
>> ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve.  Which will NEVER occur.

>But you are possibly missing out on a problem AP *would* cause:  mob
slander of an innocent man.
You must not be thinking very hard.  First, I will point out that your comment 
is ambiguous:  WHICH "innocent man"?  An, why would AP CAUSE that slander?
If we assume you are talking about the innocent person described in the Reddit 
message I quoted, you seem to forget that he was given "mob slander" due to a 
corrupt and lying detective, not due to some not-yet-existent AP system.  And 
that lying detective knew he was enabled by a crooked judge, who had never 
given any policement worse than probation.   And if an AP system existed, that 
detective would have certainly been 'donated to death'.  So, why are you now 
saying that AP would CAUSE that slander?  Slightly more accurately, you might 
speculate that an AP system would not necessarily PREVENT that slander.   
And, I notice that you are carefully avoided quoting the large majority of my 
original post (and I'm not referring to my quote of the Reddit posting), which 
would easily disprove what you are saying.  I addressed these issues; you 
edited those points out.  Should I accuse you of dishonesty for removing them?  
I will re-post that material I wrote, below.  
 > Your AP has to be *perfectly* accurate of its indictments.  How will you do 
this without re-inventing "the
System"?
I would ask you to check all the discussion in the 1995 CP archives, BUT SOME 
CORRUPT PEOPLE TAMPERED WITH THE ARCHIVES!!!
The reality is that after a couple of years post-AP, there will be a series of 
VOLUNTARY courts implemented, to resolve these disputes.  They will have 
juries, and juries will do what juries have done best, find facts.  I could go 
on, but you would ignore it.  



>That's why I propose the Headline Target technique:  more likely to
get results, and more-or-less harmless if wrong.

>marxos
It looks to me like you just wanted to flog YOUR idea, so you chose to 
criticize MY idea, but to disguise your dishonesty you deleted a key part of my 
comment to make it look like you made a point, and make it look like I omitted 
a point.  Stop that.  
                      Jim Bell


--- the following is what I, Jim Bell, originally posted, minus the 
Reddit posting quoted 
My Assassination Politics   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm   proposal has been 
extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the 
Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses.  
Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, 
rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many 
people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these 
comparisons.  They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term 
called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of 
action.  Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but 
also choosing NOT, to do something.   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost   
I just read the following, from Reddit.  It is a seemingly small, but virtually 
perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my 
Assassination Politics system.
r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the story of 
his client, facing 15 years for a cop's lie. Fortunately there was video. 
Yesterday the cop got probation from Justice Chun, who has never sentenced a 
cop to anything else


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r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the st...

1,474 votes and 144 comments so far on Reddit
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I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears.   
But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur.  Why do 
I say that?   In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be 
protected by an equally-crooked judge.  In an AP world, this crooked detective 
would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all 
that anybody could do to stop this.  And if a crooked judge tried to help him 
get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', 
just as quickly.  And anyone who supported him, or them.  Mostly, the deterrent 
value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice.  
One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be 
judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this.  
Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than 
today's amazing world.  
When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" '  
I 

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[\0xDynamite]

> I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve
> ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve.  Which will NEVER occur.

But you are possibly missing out on a problem AP *would* cause:  mob
slander of an innocent man.  Your AP has to be *perfectly* accurate of
its indictments.  How will you do this without re-inventing "the
System"?

That's why I propose the Headline Target technique:  more likely to
get results, and more-or-less harmless if wrong.

marxos

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[jim bell]

 [twice in the last couple of hours I sent this, both times getting a quick 
confirmation as was programmed weeks, yet NOT actually getting a return from 
from the list itself.  I will shorten the quote below to ensure that this isn't 
the problem.]
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 01:19:46 PM PST, jim bell 
 wrote:  
 
  [I am resending this, because while I received a confirmation from the CP 
list a few seconds after I sent it, nevertheless after nearly 40 minutes after 
this, I have not yet received the posting as would have been sent by the list.]
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:40:40 PM PST, jim bell 
 wrote:  
 
  My Assassination Politics   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm   proposal has been 
extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the 
Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses.  
Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, 
rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many 
people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these 
comparisons.  They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term 
called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of 
action.  Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but 
also choosing NOT, to do something.   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost   
I just read the following, from Reddit.  It is a seemingly small, but virtually 
perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my 
Assassination Politics system.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app_source=share

 I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears.   
But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur.  Why do 
I say that?   In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be 
protected by an equally-crooked judge.  In an AP world, this crooked detective 
would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all 
that anybody could do to stop this.  And if a crooked judge tried to help him 
get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', 
just as quickly.  And anyone who supported him, or them.  Mostly, the deterrent 
value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice.  
One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be 
judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this.  
Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than 
today's amazing world.  
When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" '  
I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still 
believes in his AP idea'.  As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I 
really still support my AP idea.  Why should I recant?   Why should I abandon 
my discovery/invention?   Does our world still have injustice, in the way this 
current Reddit item describes?   Does our world still have militaries, taxation 
to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons?  Does anybody (else) have a credible 
idea to solve these problems?
I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL 
of its problems that AP would otherwise solve.  Which will NEVER occur.  
Jim Bell


- From that cite shown above:
-
"I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony 
indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. If 
convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the liar 
only got probation.

"I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the cage 
behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like everyone I 
represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working that day, & a 
file with his name & charges was handed to me.

"The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. 
Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned 
the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on 
gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life.

"Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first 
degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what he 
was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail 
directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court.

I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. I 
told him his charges. And he forcefully denied it. “Didn’t happen. These cops 
have been harassing me for months. I was parked. They pulled up. I drove off. 
That was it.” I pressed him more.

“Why on earth would they make something like this up?” I asked. 

Re: This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea

[jim bell]

 [I am resending this, because while I received a confirmation from the CP list 
a few seconds after I sent it, nevertheless after nearly 40 minutes after this, 
I have not yet received the posting as would have been sent by the list.]
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:40:40 PM PST, jim bell 
 wrote:  
 
  My Assassination Politics   https://cryptome.org/ap.htm   proposal has been 
extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the 
Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses.  
Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, 
rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many 
people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these 
comparisons.  They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term 
called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of 
action.  Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but 
also choosing NOT, to do something.   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost   
I just read the following, from Reddit.  It is a seemingly small, but virtually 
perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my 
Assassination Politics system.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app_source=share

 I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears.   
But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur.  Why do 
I say that?   In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be 
protected by an equally-crooked judge.  In an AP world, this crooked detective 
would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all 
that anybody could do to stop this.  And if a crooked judge tried to help him 
get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', 
just as quickly.  And anyone who supported him, or them.  Mostly, the deterrent 
value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice.  
One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be 
judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this.  
Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than 
today's amazing world.  
When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" '  
I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still 
believes in his AP idea'.  As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I 
really still support my AP idea.  Why should I recant?   Why should I abandon 
my discovery/invention?   Does our world still have injustice, in the way this 
current Reddit item describes?   Does our world still have militaries, taxation 
to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons?  Does anybody (else) have a credible 
idea to solve these problems?
I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL 
of its problems that AP would otherwise solve.  Which will NEVER occur.  
Jim Bell


- From that cite shown above:
-
"I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony 
indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. If 
convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the liar 
only got probation.

"I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the cage 
behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like everyone I 
represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working that day, & a 
file with his name & charges was handed to me.

"The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. 
Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned 
the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on 
gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life.

"Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first 
degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what he 
was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail 
directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court.

I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. I 
told him his charges. And he forcefully denied it. “Didn’t happen. These cops 
have been harassing me for months. I was parked. They pulled up. I drove off. 
That was it.” I pressed him more.

“Why on earth would they make something like this up?” I asked. Cops lie all 
the time. To justify bad stops & frisks, excessive use of force. Sometimes they 
plant evidence. Big lies. Small lies. Here: there was no motivation. He wasn’t 
injured. They didn’t find anything on him.

“I honesty don’t know. They don’t like me, but saying I did this?” He trailed 
off. Put head down. He