Re: Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu
x-mailing-list: daf-disc...@shemayisrael.com(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld d...@dafyomi.co.il [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Berachos 007: Tosfos on Avraham Avinu Betzalel Gersten asks: Why does Tosfos try to prove that after the battle of the four kings Avraham is 73. We know that Avraham entered Eretz Canaan by Lech Lecha at 75 as the Pasuk is explicit (Beraishis 12:4) and Lot is with him at that time (important for later). If we just follow everything chronologically, Avraham is still older in Beraishis 15:2 (75+) then he is in Beraishis 15:8 (70 years old). By explaining this the way Tosfos (and first Rashi on Shabbos 12a) explain it creates a whole new problem. How is it that the death of Kdarla'omer, the capture and saving of Lot, and the capture and return of all of his Rechush (14:16) the mention of Aner, Ashkol Mamre (14:13,24), as well as a Pasuk that says that Avraham lived in Elonei Mamre(14:13) -- how could all this happen before Lech Lecha and when Avraham and Lot subsequently went down to Mitzrayim and subsequently came up with wealth which subsequently caused disputes between their shepherds and sent Lot to Sdom. Wasn't he captured logically after that point when Avraham is 75+. What is forcing Tosfos and Rashi to make the break of the 52 years of Sdom down the middle to put Beraishis 15:1 when Avraham is 73. Why do the 26 years of Shalva have to all be at the end and the 12 years of servitude to Kdarla'omer have to be from the founding of Sdom, right after the death of Re'u and Migdal Bavel. (Avraham was 100-52=48 during Migdal Bavel) Why not say that there were some years of Shalva in Sdom before Kdarl'omer came along and simply break up the 26 years before and after the 12 years of servitude and 13 years of rebellion. So that the war between Avraham and the five kings can be after Avraham is 75+. Why are Tosfos and Rashi seemingly creating more problems than they are helping solve. What's pushing them to do this. What am I missing. The Kollel replied: 1) By way of introduction, I should point out that we should not be too concerned if things do not match chronologically, because we have the very important rule (Pesachim 6b), Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah -- that which came first on the timeline was not necessarily written first in the Torah. Rashi (Bereshis 6:3) cites this rule very early in his commentary on the Torah and gives an example there from that Parshah. 2) Now we will look at the source for Tosfos' statement that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. This is explained by the Da'as Zekenim mi'Ba'alei ha'Tosfos on Bereshis 12:4. He proves this from the apparent contradiction between Bereshis 15:13 and Shemos 12:41. In Bereshis 15:13, Avraham was told by Hashem that his descendants would be afflicted for 400 years in Egypt. However, Shemos 12:41 says that they left after 430 years. The solution is given by Rashi in Bereshis 15:13 that the 400 years start from when Yitzchak was born, while the 430 years start from when Hashem spoke to Avraham at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We now know that the Bris Bein ha'Besarim happened 30 years before Yitzchak was born. Since we know that Avraham was 100 when Yitzchak was born, it follows that he was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. We are forced to apply here Ein Mukdam u'Me'uchar ba'Torah, because Avraham was 75 at the beginning of Lech Lecha and he was only 70 later on in the same Parshah. 3) However, your question about the age 73 that Tosfos gives for Avraham's age at the time of the battle with the kings is asked by Rav Eliezer Moshe ha'Levi Horowitz, whose Chidushim are printed in the back of the Gemara. He claims that the verses contradict Tosfos. We see explicitly that Avraham's departure from Canaan, his descebt to Egypt, as well as his return from Egypt to Canaan, were all done together with Lot. Only after they parted did the war with the kings take place. Rav Horowitz proves from this that Avraham was at least 75 at the time of the war with the kings, so how can Tosfos say he was 73? I have to close here for the moment. In my next reply I will try, b'Ezras Hashem, to defend Tosfos from the question asked on him by Rav Horowitz. --- The Kollel adds: Before I attempt to answer the question of Rav Elazar Moshe ha'Levi Horowitz, I will cite another source on your side. Tosfos in Shabbos (11a, DH v'Shel) cites the Seder Olam, from which it appears that Avraham was 75 when he struck the kings. 1) The Seder Olam starts by stating that Avraham was 70 at the Bris Bein ha'Besarim. This is what I wrote in my first reply. Avraham then returned to Charan
Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans
x-mailing-list: daf-disc...@shemayisrael.com(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld d...@dafyomi.co.il [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans David Goldman asked: Greetings. I was thinking over these issues on Yomtof, and was wondering what you may think about these matters. I don't find them addressed in meforshim, especially the Meam Loez.. 1) The killing by Shaul Hamelech was not of ALL Kohanim, only those in Nov, except for Aviatar, yet the punishment Chazal describe of the House of Dovid Hamelech was on ALL his descendants for affiliating with the house of Achav (except for Yehoash). Thus this is lechoyra a lack of symmetry. This was in addition to the destruction by Yehoram, Asaliah's husband of all his own brothers, and then subsequently the loss of all his sons in the war with the Arabs/Emorites, except for Achaziah, the father of Yehoash, and all their sons (grandsons of Yehoram) by Yehu. 2) The gezeyra given to Yehu ben Nimshi was apparently ONLY on the males of the house of Achav (aside from Izevel). Likewise, although Asaliah sought to kill kol zera hamelucha she did NOT seek to kill her daughter, Yehosheva/Yehoshvat, who may equally have had children of Beis Dovid by her husband, Yehoyada. Thus, one could certainly ask how Asaliah planned to exterminate the house of Dovid if her daughter and possibly other females survived and had children who were descendants of Dovid. 3) Had Achaziah not been killed, presumably Asaliah would not have planned to destroy all the members of the House of David, so why was it that only with the death of Achaziah the Sefer Melachim indicates that she decided to carry out this revenge, and not upon the deaths of her own parents by Yehu?! Why didn't she seek to destroy Yehu, who was the one who killed them instead? 4) Why did Asaliah not decide to be the same type of (negative) influence over a young king Yehoash that she was on his father, her son, Achaziah as the queen regent? 5) Apparently Yehoash's mother Tsivia was dead when Asaliah took over, otherwise Tsivia would have become the Queen mother. 6) Why did Asaliah run out to the Beis Hamikdash unprotected by her own retinue of guards to condemn the crowning of the child instead of accepting it and waiting for a time when she could affect the child king, especially since it was her own grandchild, of the house of Achav?? By killing all the zera hamelucha, who was she planning to succeed after her own death if not Yehosheva herself or Yehosheva's child? The Kollel replied: ... 3. According to the above ideas, we may now also have an answer to question #3. Asalyah's main aim was not to gain revenge against Yehu but rather to grab power for herself. (Possibly there was a certain element of revenge involved, but at any rate it was not the chief motive.) Therefore, as long as Achazyah was alive, she did not see that the door was yet open to her gaining power. Before I go further, I should just note that I forgot to write above that the explanation of the Abarbanel is quite similar to that of the Yad David to Sanhedrin 95b that I cited in my earlier reply, namely that the aim of Asalyah was principally to kill all of the royal seed who might present a challenge to her claim to the throne, and not necessarily to kill all of the seed of David. (It is interesting to note that the Abarbanel was a government minister in the Portuguese and Spanish government, and that the author of Yad David was the head of the so-called Sanhedrin which Napoleon tried to establish, so both were familiar with political life.) David Goldman comments: Thank you for your reply. The clarification on #3 is very valuable. I am ashamed to say I never heard of the Yad Dovid commentary - But it's interesting that Asalya must not have feared a challenge from other branches of the family who would certainly have had much more claim than she did, even if the descendants of Shlomo were killed. And of course it would seem that had Achaziah not been killed she would have accepted his child, i.e. Yoash to succeed him, especially since he too was a descendant of Achav. Indeed, the death of her own mother seemed to play no role in her behavior as compared to the death of her son, and she apparently had no plans for her own successor.. And of course it can be assumed that when Yehoshafat married his son Yehoram to Asalya he thought she was a tsadekes. But then Yehoram became king and wrongly invoked his authority to kill his own brothers as moredim bemalchus, probably under the influence of his wife, but may have had reasons he thought were
