Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans David Goldman asked: >>Greetings. I was thinking over these issues on Yomtof, and was wondering what you may think about these matters. I don't find them addressed in meforshim, especially the Meam Loez.. 1) The killing by Shaul Hamelech was not of ALL Kohanim, only those in Nov, except for Aviatar, yet the punishment Chazal describe of the House of Dovid Hamelech was on ALL his descendants for affiliating with the house of Achav (except for Yehoash). Thus this is lechoyra a lack of symmetry. This was in addition to the destruction by Yehoram, Asaliah's husband of all his own brothers, and then subsequently the loss of all his sons in the war with the Arabs/Emorites, except for Achaziah, the father of Yehoash, and all their sons (grandsons of Yehoram) by Yehu. 2) The gezeyra given to Yehu ben Nimshi was apparently ONLY on the males of the house of Achav (aside from Izevel). Likewise, although Asaliah sought to kill "kol zera hamelucha" she did NOT seek to kill her daughter, Yehosheva/Yehoshvat, who may equally have had children of Beis Dovid by her husband, Yehoyada. Thus, one could certainly ask how Asaliah planned to exterminate the house of Dovid if her daughter and possibly other females survived and had children who were descendants of Dovid. 3) Had Achaziah not been killed, presumably Asaliah would not have planned to destroy all the members of the House of David, so why was it that only with the death of Achaziah the Sefer Melachim indicates that she decided to carry out this revenge, and not upon the deaths of her own parents by Yehu?! Why didn't she seek to destroy Yehu, who was the one who killed them instead? 4) Why did Asaliah not decide to be the same type of (negative) influence over a young king Yehoash that she was on his father, her son, Achaziah as the queen regent? 5) Apparently Yehoash's mother Tsivia was dead when Asaliah took over, otherwise Tsivia would have become the Queen mother. 6) Why did Asaliah run out to the Beis Hamikdash unprotected by her own retinue of guards to condemn the crowning of the child instead of accepting it and waiting for a time when she could affect the child king, especially since it was her own grandchild, of the house of Achav?? By killing all the zera hamelucha, who was she planning to succeed after her own death if not Yehosheva herself or Yehosheva's child?<< The Kollel replied: >>... 3. According to the above ideas, we may now also have an answer to question #3. Asalyah's main aim was not to gain revenge against Yehu but rather to grab power for herself. (Possibly there was a certain element of revenge involved, but at any rate it was not the chief motive.) Therefore, as long as Achazyah was alive, she did not see that the door was yet open to her gaining power. Before I go further, I should just note that I forgot to write above that the explanation of the Abarbanel is quite similar to that of the Yad David to Sanhedrin 95b that I cited in my earlier reply, namely that the aim of Asalyah was principally to kill all of the royal seed who might present a challenge to her claim to the throne, and not necessarily to kill all of the seed of David. (It is interesting to note that the Abarbanel was a government minister in the Portuguese and Spanish government, and that the author of Yad David was the head of the so-called "Sanhedrin" which Napoleon tried to establish, so both were familiar with political life.) << David Goldman commented: >>Thank you for your reply. The clarification on #3 is very valuable. I am ashamed to say I never heard of the Yad Dovid commentary - But it's interesting that Asalya must not have feared a challenge from other branches of the family who would certainly have had much more claim than she did, even if the descendants of Shlomo were killed. And of course it would seem that had Achaziah not been killed she would have accepted his child, i.e. Yoash to succeed him, especially since he too was a descendant of Achav. Indeed, the death of her own mother seemed to play no role in her behavior as compared to the death of her son, and she apparently had no plans for her own successor.. And of course it can be assumed that when Yehoshafat married his son Yehoram to Asalya he thought she was a tsadekes. But then Yehoram became king and wrongly invoked his authority to kill his own brothers as
Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans David Goldman asked: >>Greetings. I was thinking over these issues on Yomtof, and was wondering what you may think about these matters. I don't find them addressed in meforshim, especially the Meam Loez.. 1) The killing by Shaul Hamelech was not of ALL Kohanim, only those in Nov, except for Aviatar, yet the punishment Chazal describe of the House of Dovid Hamelech was on ALL his descendants for affiliating with the house of Achav (except for Yehoash). Thus this is lechoyra a lack of symmetry. This was in addition to the destruction by Yehoram, Asaliah's husband of all his own brothers, and then subsequently the loss of all his sons in the war with the Arabs/Emorites, except for Achaziah, the father of Yehoash, and all their sons (grandsons of Yehoram) by Yehu. 2) The gezeyra given to Yehu ben Nimshi was apparently ONLY on the males of the house of Achav (aside from Izevel). Likewise, although Asaliah sought to kill "kol zera hamelucha" she did NOT seek to kill her daughter, Yehosheva/Yehoshvat, who may equally have had children of Beis Dovid by her husband, Yehoyada. Thus, one could certainly ask how Asaliah planned to exterminate the house of Dovid if her daughter and possibly other females survived and had children who were descendants of Dovid. 3) Had Achaziah not been killed, presumably Asaliah would not have planned to destroy all the members of the House of David, so why was it that only with the death of Achaziah the Sefer Melachim indicates that she decided to carry out this revenge, and not upon the deaths of her own parents by Yehu?! Why didn't she seek to destroy Yehu, who was the one who killed them instead? 4) Why did Asaliah not decide to be the same type of (negative) influence over a young king Yehoash that she was on his father, her son, Achaziah as the queen regent? 5) Apparently Yehoash's mother Tsivia was dead when Asaliah took over, otherwise Tsivia would have become the Queen mother. 6) Why did Asaliah run out to the Beis Hamikdash unprotected by her own retinue of guards to condemn the crowning of the child instead of accepting it and waiting for a time when she could affect the child king, especially since it was her own grandchild, of the house of Achav?? By killing all the zera hamelucha, who was she planning to succeed after her own death if not Yehosheva herself or Yehosheva's child?<< The Kollel replied: >>... 3. According to the above ideas, we may now also have an answer to question #3. Asalyah's main aim was not to gain revenge against Yehu but rather to grab power for herself. (Possibly there was a certain element of revenge involved, but at any rate it was not the chief motive.) Therefore, as long as Achazyah was alive, she did not see that the door was yet open to her gaining power. Before I go further, I should just note that I forgot to write above that the explanation of the Abarbanel is quite similar to that of the Yad David to Sanhedrin 95b that I cited in my earlier reply, namely that the aim of Asalyah was principally to kill all of the royal seed who might present a challenge to her claim to the throne, and not necessarily to kill all of the seed of David. (It is interesting to note that the Abarbanel was a government minister in the Portuguese and Spanish government, and that the author of Yad David was the head of the so-called "Sanhedrin" which Napoleon tried to establish, so both were familiar with political life.) << David Goldman commented: >>Thank you for your reply. The clarification on #3 is very valuable. I am ashamed to say I never heard of the Yad Dovid commentary - But it's interesting that Asalya must not have feared a challenge from other branches of the family who would certainly have had much more claim than she did, even if the descendants of Shlomo were killed. And of course it would seem that had Achaziah not been killed she would have accepted his child, i.e. Yoash to succeed him, especially since he too was a descendant of Achav. Indeed, the death of her own mother seemed to play no role in her behavior as compared to the death of her son, and she apparently had no plans for her own successor.. And of course it can be assumed that when Yehoshafat married his son Yehoram to Asalya he thought she was a tsadekes. But then Yehoram became king and wrongly invoked his authority to kill his own brothers as
Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans David Goldman asked: >>Greetings. I was thinking over these issues on Yomtof, and was wondering what you may think about these matters. I don't find them addressed in meforshim, especially the Meam Loez.. 1) The killing by Shaul Hamelech was not of ALL Kohanim, only those in Nov, except for Aviatar, yet the punishment Chazal describe of the House of Dovid Hamelech was on ALL his descendants for affiliating with the house of Achav (except for Yehoash). Thus this is lechoyra a lack of symmetry. This was in addition to the destruction by Yehoram, Asaliah's husband of all his own brothers, and then subsequently the loss of all his sons in the war with the Arabs/Emorites, except for Achaziah, the father of Yehoash, and all their sons (grandsons of Yehoram) by Yehu. 2) The gezeyra given to Yehu ben Nimshi was apparently ONLY on the males of the house of Achav (aside from Izevel). Likewise, although Asaliah sought to kill "kol zera hamelucha" she did NOT seek to kill her daughter, Yehosheva/Yehoshvat, who may equally have had children of Beis Dovid by her husband, Yehoyada. Thus, one could certainly ask how Asaliah planned to exterminate the house of Dovid if her daughter and possibly other females survived and had children who were descendants of Dovid. 3) Had Achaziah not been killed, presumably Asaliah would not have planned to destroy all the members of the House of David, so why was it that only with the death of Achaziah the Sefer Melachim indicates that she decided to carry out this revenge, and not upon the deaths of her own parents by Yehu?! Why didn't she seek to destroy Yehu, who was the one who killed them instead? 4) Why did Asaliah not decide to be the same type of (negative) influence over a young king Yehoash that she was on his father, her son, Achaziah as the queen regent? 5) Apparently Yehoash's mother Tsivia was dead when Asaliah took over, otherwise Tsivia would have become the Queen mother. 6) Why did Asaliah run out to the Beis Hamikdash unprotected by her own retinue of guards to condemn the crowning of the child instead of accepting it and waiting for a time when she could affect the child king, especially since it was her own grandchild, of the house of Achav?? By killing all the zera hamelucha, who was she planning to succeed after her own death if not Yehosheva herself or Yehosheva's child?<< The Kollel replied: >>... 3. According to the above ideas, we may now also have an answer to question #3. Asalyah's main aim was not to gain revenge against Yehu but rather to grab power for herself. (Possibly there was a certain element of revenge involved, but at any rate it was not the chief motive.) Therefore, as long as Achazyah was alive, she did not see that the door was yet open to her gaining power. Before I go further, I should just note that I forgot to write above that the explanation of the Abarbanel is quite similar to that of the Yad David to Sanhedrin 95b that I cited in my earlier reply, namely that the aim of Asalyah was principally to kill all of the royal seed who might present a challenge to her claim to the throne, and not necessarily to kill all of the seed of David. (It is interesting to note that the Abarbanel was a government minister in the Portuguese and Spanish government, and that the author of Yad David was the head of the so-called "Sanhedrin" which Napoleon tried to establish, so both were familiar with political life.) << David Goldman comments: >>Thank you for your reply. The clarification on #3 is very valuable. I am ashamed to say I never heard of the Yad Dovid commentary - But it's interesting that Asalya must not have feared a challenge from other branches of the family who would certainly have had much more claim than she did, even if the descendants of Shlomo were killed. And of course it would seem that had Achaziah not been killed she would have accepted his child, i.e. Yoash to succeed him, especially since he too was a descendant of Achav. Indeed, the death of her own mother seemed to play no role in her behavior as compared to the death of her son, and she apparently had no plans for her own successor.. And of course it can be assumed that when Yehoshafat married his son Yehoram to Asalya he thought she was a tsadekes. But then Yehoram became king and wrongly invoked his authority to kill his own brothers as mor
Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans David Goldman asked: >>Greetings. I was thinking over these issues on Yomtof, and was wondering what you may think about these matters. I don't find them addressed in meforshim, especially the Meam Loez.. 1) The killing by Shaul Hamelech was not of ALL Kohanim, only those in Nov, except for Aviatar, yet the punishment Chazal describe of the House of Dovid Hamelech was on ALL his descendants for affiliating with the house of Achav (except for Yehoash). Thus this is lechoyra a lack of symmetry. This was in addition to the destruction by Yehoram, Asaliah's husband of all his own brothers, and then subsequently the loss of all his sons in the war with the Arabs/Emorites, except for Achaziah, the father of Yehoash, and all their sons (grandsons of Yehoram) by Yehu. 2) The gezeyra given to Yehu ben Nimshi was apparently ONLY on the males of the house of Achav (aside from Izevel). Likewise, although Asaliah sought to kill "kol zera hamelucha" she did NOT seek to kill her daughter, Yehosheva/Yehoshvat, who may equally have had children of Beis Dovid by her husband, Yehoyada. Thus, one could certainly ask how Asaliah planned to exterminate the house of Dovid if her daughter and possibly other females survived and had children who were descendants of Dovid. 3) Had Achaziah not been killed, presumably Asaliah would not have planned to destroy all the members of the House of David, so why was it that only with the death of Achaziah the Sefer Melachim indicates that she decided to carry out this revenge, and not upon the deaths of her own parents by Yehu?! Why didn't she seek to destroy Yehu, who was the one who killed them instead? 4) Why did Asaliah not decide to be the same type of (negative) influence over a young king Yehoash that she was on his father, her son, Achaziah as the queen regent? 5) Apparently Yehoash's mother Tsivia was dead when Asaliah took over, otherwise Tsivia would have become the Queen mother. 6) Why did Asaliah run out to the Beis Hamikdash unprotected by her own retinue of guards to condemn the crowning of the child instead of accepting it and waiting for a time when she could affect the child king, especially since it was her own grandchild, of the house of Achav?? By killing all the zera hamelucha, who was she planning to succeed after her own death if not Yehosheva herself or Yehosheva's child?<< The Kollel replied: >>... 3. According to the above ideas, we may now also have an answer to question #3. Asalyah's main aim was not to gain revenge against Yehu but rather to grab power for herself. (Possibly there was a certain element of revenge involved, but at any rate it was not the chief motive.) Therefore, as long as Achazyah was alive, she did not see that the door was yet open to her gaining power. Before I go further, I should just note that I forgot to write above that the explanation of the Abarbanel is quite similar to that of the Yad David to Sanhedrin 95b that I cited in my earlier reply, namely that the aim of Asalyah was principally to kill all of the royal seed who might present a challenge to her claim to the throne, and not necessarily to kill all of the seed of David. (It is interesting to note that the Abarbanel was a government minister in the Portuguese and Spanish government, and that the author of Yad David was the head of the so-called "Sanhedrin" which Napoleon tried to establish, so both were familiar with political life.) << --- David Goldman comments: Thank you for your reply. The clarification on #3 is very valuable. I am ashamed to say I never heard of the Yad Dovid commentary - But it's interesting that Asalya must not have feared a challenge from other branches of the family who would certainly have had much more claim than she did, even if the descendants of Shlomo were killed. And of course it would seem that had Achaziah not been killed she would have accepted his child, i.e. Yoash to succeed him, especially since he too was a descendant of Achav. Indeed, the death of her own mother seemed to play no role in her behavior as compared to the death of her son, and she apparently had no plans for her own successor.. And of course it can be assumed that when Yehoshafat married his son Yehoram to Asalya he thought she was a tsadekes. But then Yehoram became king and wrongly invoked his authority to kill his own brothers a
Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans David Goldman asked: >>Greetings. I was thinking over these issues on Yomtof, and was wondering what you may think about these matters. I don't find them addressed in meforshim, especially the Meam Loez.. 1) The killing by Shaul Hamelech was not of ALL Kohanim, only those in Nov, except for Aviatar, yet the punishment Chazal describe of the House of Dovid Hamelech was on ALL his descendants for affiliating with the house of Achav (except for Yehoash). Thus this is lechoyra a lack of symmetry. This was in addition to the destruction by Yehoram, Asaliah's husband of all his own brothers, and then subsequently the loss of all his sons in the war with the Arabs/Emorites, except for Achaziah, the father of Yehoash, and all their sons (grandsons of Yehoram) by Yehu. 2) The gezeyra given to Yehu ben Nimshi was apparently ONLY on the males of the house of Achav (aside from Izevel). Likewise, although Asaliah sought to kill "kol zera hamelucha" she did NOT seek to kill her daughter, Yehosheva/Yehoshvat, who may equally have had children of Beis Dovid by her husband, Yehoyada. Thus, one could certainly ask how Asaliah planned to exterminate the house of Dovid if her daughter and possibly other females survived and had children who were descendants of Dovid. 3) Had Achaziah not been killed, presumably Asaliah would not have planned to destroy all the members of the House of David, so why was it that only with the death of Achaziah the Sefer Melachim indicates that she decided to carry out this revenge, and not upon the deaths of her own parents by Yehu?! Why didn't she seek to destroy Yehu, who was the one who killed them instead? 4) Why did Asaliah not decide to be the same type of (negative) influence over a young king Yehoash that she was on his father, her son, Achaziah as the queen regent? 5) Apparently Yehoash's mother Tsivia was dead when Asaliah took over, otherwise Tsivia would have become the Queen mother. 6) Why did Asaliah run out to the Beis Hamikdash unprotected by her own retinue of guards to condemn the crowning of the child instead of accepting it and waiting for a time when she could affect the child king, especially since it was her own grandchild, of the house of Achav?? By killing all the zera hamelucha, who was she planning to succeed after her own death if not Yehosheva herself or Yehosheva's child?<< The Kollel replied: >>1. a) We can understand this if we look carefully at the Gemara in Sanhedrin 95a-b. The Gemara tells us that ha'Kadosh Baruch Hu said to David, "Until when will this sin be hidden in your hand? Through you, Nov, the city of the Kohanim, was slaughtered... Do you want your seed to be destroyed or do you prefer to be given over to the hands of your enemies?" b) The Maharsha (DH Retzoncha) explains that the alternative presented to David was that his seed should be destroyed in the same way that the seed of the Kohanim was destroyed. The Maharsha refers us to the Gemara on 95b which cites the verse that Asalyah destroyed all of the seed of the kingship. The Gemara questions this, since she did not actually destroy everyone, because Yoash survived. The Gemara answers that Evyasar, from the Kohanim of Nov, also survived. Rav Yehudah then states in the name of Rav that if Evyasar had not survived as a descendant of Achimelech, then absolutely nobody would have survived from the descendants of David. c) We see from here that the disaster that befell David corresponds to the disaster that befell Achimelech. Because David caused the destruction of the seed of Achimelech, he himself received a punishment that his seed was destroyed. Not all if the Kohanim in the world were killed in Nov, but neither was the punishment that all of David's family, the Shevet Yehudah, should be destroyed. We now can see how the punishment is symmetrical. I have only answered the first question, and there is still a lot more to write, but I am going to send this off for the moment, and continue later, b'Siyata d'Shmaya.<< --- David Goldman asks: Thanks! But in fact a smaller total of kohanim were killed by Shaul than the total of the seed of David by Asalia which was apparently total except for Yoash and Yehosheva, so it isn't really equivalent. And then of course remain the other kashes. -- The Kollel replies: 1. I think we
Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Re: Melachim II 011: Asalyah and her Murderous Plans David Goldman asked: >>Greetings. I was thinking over these issues on Yomtof, and was wondering what you may think about these matters. I don't find them addressed in meforshim, especially the Meam Loez.. 1) The killing by Shaul Hamelech was not of ALL Kohanim, only those in Nov, except for Aviatar, yet the punishment Chazal describe of the House of Dovid Hamelech was on ALL his descendants for affiliating with the house of Achav (except for Yehoash). Thus this is lechoyra a lack of symmetry. This was in addition to the destruction by Yehoram, Asaliah's husband of all his own brothers, and then subsequently the loss of all his sons in the war with the Arabs/Emorites, except for Achaziah, the father of Yehoash, and all their sons (grandsons of Yehoram) by Yehu. 2) The gezeyra given to Yehu ben Nimshi was apparently ONLY on the males of the house of Achav (aside from Izevel). Likewise, although Asaliah sought to kill "kol zera hamelucha" she did NOT seek to kill her daughter, Yehosheva/Yehoshvat, who may equally have had children of Beis Dovid by her husband, Yehoyada. Thus, one could certainly ask how Asaliah planned to exterminate the house of Dovid if her daughter and possibly other females survived and had children who were descendants of Dovid. 3) Had Achaziah not been killed, presumably Asaliah would not have planned to destroy all the members of the House of David, so why was it that only with the death of Achaziah the Sefer Melachim indicates that she decided to carry out this revenge, and not upon the deaths of her own parents by Yehu?! Why didn't she seek to destroy Yehu, who was the one who killed them instead? 4) Why did Asaliah not decide to be the same type of (negative) influence over a young king Yehoash that she was on his father, her son, Achaziah as the queen regent? 5) Apparently Yehoash's mother Tsivia was dead when Asaliah took over, otherwise Tsivia would have become the Queen mother. 6) Why did Asaliah run out to the Beis Hamikdash unprotected by her own retinue of guards to condemn the crowning of the child instead of accepting it and waiting for a time when she could affect the child king, especially since it was her own grandchild, of the house of Achav?? By killing all the zera hamelucha, who was she planning to succeed after her own death if not Yehosheva herself or Yehosheva's child?<< The Kollel replied: >>1. a) We can understand this if we look carefully at the Gemara in Sanhedrin 95a-b. The Gemara tells us that ha'Kadosh Baruch Hu said to David, "Until when will this sin be hidden in your hand? Through you, Nov, the city of the Kohanim, was slaughtered... Do you want your seed to be destroyed or do you prefer to be given over to the hands of your enemies?" b) The Maharsha (DH Retzoncha) explains that the alternative presented to David was that his seed should be destroyed in the same way that the seed of the Kohanim was destroyed. The Maharsha refers us to the Gemara on 95b which cites the verse that Asalyah destroyed all of the seed of the kingship. The Gemara questions this, since she did not actually destroy everyone, because Yoash survived. The Gemara answers that Evyasar, from the Kohanim of Nov, also survived. Rav Yehudah then states in the name of Rav that if Evyasar had not survived as a descendant of Achimelech, then absolutely nobody would have survived from the descendants of David. c) We see from here that the disaster that befell David corresponds to the disaster that befell Achimelech. Because David caused the destruction of the seed of Achimelech, he himself received a punishment that his seed was destroyed. Not all if the Kohanim in the world were killed in Nov, but neither was the punishment that all of David's family, the Shevet Yehudah, should be destroyed. We now can see how the punishment is symmetrical. I have only answered the first question, and there is still a lot more to write, but I am going to send this off for the moment, and continue later, b'Siyata d'Shmaya.<< --- The Kollel adds: 1. I am now going to start, b'Siyata d'Shmaya, to answer question #2 and relate first to the question of whether the Gezeirah given to Yehu ben Nimshi applied only to the males of the House of Achav. I also think that we will see here that there was a big difference between the Gezeirah of Yehu ben Nimshi and
