Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah
x-mailing-list: [email protected] (Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah Davic1 asked: >>A gute voch. Would you know a source I could read that explains why Yishai, the head of the Sanhedrin, had the sefekos about a female Moavi, I.e. his own grandmother Rus, when surely he knew the halacha just like his own grandfather Boaz, etc.<< The Kollel replied: >>Regarding Boaz, the Maharsha and others on the Daf (77a) already discuss the calculations of Boaz, and why they were perhaps different than the average case. Additionally, I recommend reading through the Rama MiPanos discussion about Yishais actions in Asara Maamaros (Maamar Chikur haDin 3:10). [I personally find that it is very useful to use the commentary of the Yad Yehudah on the Rama MiPanos commentary.] All the best, Yaakov Montrose (See also the Chidushim on the Torah of Rav Yitzchak Zev Soloveichik of Brisk.- AP)<< Davic1 asked: >>In any case, once the true halacha was revealed by Boaz, then what place was there for Yishai's safek? Plus, isn't it surprising that even people such as Doeg and Sheva Ben Bichri did not recognize the psak of Boaz, who had been the head of the Sanhedrin in his day.?? I was thinking that the doubt of Yishai was not about Moavi against Boaz, but rather whether his son could be fit to be king since his father and he might not be considered achicha, which a king must be, and therefore he did not want to have another child from Nitzeves, I.e. David Hamelech.<< The Kollel replied: >>Why wouldnt they be considered Achicha if Boaz was correct? If you think it is because a woman who is a Giyores cannot have a descendant who is a king, even if her husband is a regular Jew, this is clearly incorrect. The Kesef Mishnah (Melachim 1:4) says that this is clearly disproven from Rechavam, who was the king after Shlomo, and whose mother was Naamah HaAmonis. This is why the Kesef Mishnah says that the Halachah is that as long as one parent is not a Ger, whether it is the father or the mother, the person is called Achicha. (Some bring a similar proof from Avshalom, who was the son of an Eishes Yefas Toar, and we do not find any objection against him ruling from Achitofel and the others who supported him).<< --- Davic1 asked: >>Thank you. However the mystery otherwise is significant. Yishai had some safek yet he was on the Sanhedrin, and Eli. Shmuel and Achiya Hashiloni were all alive, and it was known as a halacha leMoshe meSinai to Avner Ben Ner and Yasra the Ishmaelite. So it would seem inconceivable that Yishai wouldn't know the halacha to avoid all the problems affecting his wife and Dovid!! Unless he had other cheshbonos in nistar.<< The Kollel replies: >>The Asarah Maamaros (Maamar Chiur HaDin 3:10) that I quoted in my original response addresses these questions. He says that Yishai separated from his wife due to a Midas Chassidus, because the Halachah was being questioned in that generation. It must be understood that since Doeg and Shaul had control of the Sanhedrin, it was quite easy for them to generate a lack of clarity in this matter, and especially among the people who trusted them. Accordingly, in order to stay away from any possible Chilul Hashem that might be caused, by one of the greatest people of the generation (who never sinned, as stated in Shabbos 55b) doing something that was being openly questioned by the Sanhedrin, Yishai separated from his wife. What clearly ended the discussion was when Yisra HaYishmaeli basically threatened Doeg to stop this discussion with his sword, and the rumors that it was causing, which (when they ended) thereby removed the problem of any Chilul Hashem.<< Davic1 asked: >>In addition to Yishai in that Sanhedrin and Yasra were Eli, Shmuel , Achiya Hashiloni and Avner Ben Ner. Despite Doeg these others all knew the truth. One midrash says Achiya told Yishai's wife and the shifcha that Yishai was incorrect So presumably the truth would have been accepted, thereby protecting his wife and Dovid from terrible false suspicions until Shmuel anointed Dovid - except of course for Doeg.<< The Kollel replied: >>I think that if you read my last answer again, and understand that Doeg and Shaul had influence over public opinion and many others on the Sanhedrin, making it clear that a Middas Chassidus of Chilul Hashem certainly (or at least very reasonably) applied, as I have stated, the question is fully answered
Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah Davic1 asked: >>A gute voch. Would you know a source I could read that explains why Yishai, the head of the Sanhedrin, had the sefekos about a female Moavi, I.e. his own grandmother Rus, when surely he knew the halacha just like his own grandfather Boaz, etc.<< The Kollel replied: >>Regarding Boaz, the Maharsha and others on the Daf (77a) already discuss the calculations of Boaz, and why they were perhaps different than the average case. Additionally, I recommend reading through the Rama Mi’Pano’s discussion about Yishai’s actions in Asara Ma’amaros (Ma’amar Chikur ha’Din 3:10). [I personally find that it is very useful to use the commentary of the Yad Yehudah on the Rama Mi’Pano’s commentary.] All the best, Yaakov Montrose (See also the Chidushim on the Torah of Rav Yitzchak Zev Soloveichik of Brisk.- AP)<< Davic1 asked: >>In any case, once the true halacha was revealed by Boaz, then what place was there for Yishai's safek? Plus, isn't it surprising that even people such as Doeg and Sheva Ben Bichri did not recognize the psak of Boaz, who had been the head of the Sanhedrin in his day.?? I was thinking that the doubt of Yishai was not about Moavi against Boaz, but rather whether his son could be fit to be king since his father and he might not be considered achicha, which a king must be, and therefore he did not want to have another child from Nitzeves, I.e. David Hamelech.<< The Kollel replied: >>Why wouldn’t they be considered Achicha if Boaz was correct? If you think it is because a woman who is a Giyores cannot have a descendant who is a king, even if her husband is a regular Jew, this is clearly incorrect. The Kesef Mishnah (Melachim 1:4) says that this is clearly disproven from Rechavam, who was the king after Shlomo, and whose mother was Na’amah Ha’Amonis. This is why the Kesef Mishnah says that the Halachah is that as long as one parent is not a Ger, whether it is the father or the mother, the person is called Achicha. (Some bring a similar proof from Avshalom, who was the son of an Eishes Yefas Toar, and we do not find any objection against him ruling from Achitofel and the others who supported him).<< --- Davic1 asked: >>Thank you. However the mystery otherwise is significant. Yishai had some safek yet he was on the Sanhedrin, and Eli. Shmuel and Achiya Hashiloni were all alive, and it was known as a halacha leMoshe meSinai to Avner Ben Ner and Yasra the Ishmaelite. So it would seem inconceivable that Yishai wouldn't know the halacha to avoid all the problems affecting his wife and Dovid!! Unless he had other cheshbonos in nistar.<< The Kollel replies: >>The Asarah Ma’amaros (Ma’amar Chiur Ha’Din 3:10) that I quoted in my original response addresses these questions. He says that Yishai separated from his wife due to a Midas Chassidus, because the Halachah was being questioned in that generation. It must be understood that since Doeg and Shaul had control of the Sanhedrin, it was quite easy for them to generate a lack of clarity in this matter, and especially among the people who trusted them. Accordingly, in order to stay away from any possible Chilul Hashem that might be caused, by one of the greatest people of the generation (who never sinned, as stated in Shabbos 55b) doing something that was being openly questioned by the Sanhedrin, Yishai separated from his wife. What clearly ended the discussion was when Yisra Ha’Yishmaeli basically threatened Doeg to stop this discussion with his sword, and the rumors that it was causing, which (when they ended) thereby removed the problem of any Chilul Hashem.<< --- Davic1 asks: In addition to Yishai in that Sanhedrin and Yasra were Eli, Shmuel , Achiya Hashiloni and Avner Ben Ner. Despite Doeg these others all knew the truth. One midrash says Achiya told Yishai's wife and the shifcha that Yishai was incorrect So presumably the truth would have been accepted, thereby protecting his wife and Dovid from terrible false suspicions until Shmuel anointed Dovid - except of course for Doeg. -- The Kollel replies: I think that if you read my last answer again, and understand that Doeg and Shaul had influence over public opinion and many others on the Sanhedrin, making it clear that a Middas Chassidus of Chilul Hashem certainly (or at least very reasonably) applied, as
Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah Davic1 asks: A gute voch. Would you know a source I could read that explains why Yishai, the head of the Sanhedrin, had the sefekos about a female Moavi, I.e. his own grandmother Rus, when surely he knew the halacha just like his own grandfather Boaz, etc. Thanks David Goldman -- The Kollel replies: Regarding Boaz, the Maharsha and others on the Daf (77a) already discuss the calculations of Boaz, and why they were perhaps different than the average case. Additionally, I recommend reading through the Rama Mi’Pano’s discussion about Yishai’s actions in Asara Ma’amaros (Ma’amar Chikur ha’Din 3:10). [I personally find that it is very useful to use the commentary of the Yad Yehudah on the Rama Mi’Pano’s commentary.] All the best, Yaakov Montrose (See also the Chidushim on the Torah of Rav Yitzchak Zev Soloveichik of Brisk.- AP) Davic1 asked: >>In any case, once the true halacha was revealed by Boaz, then what place was there for Yishai's safek? Plus, isn't it surprising that even people such as Doeg and Sheva Ben Bichri did not recognize the psak of Boaz, who had been the head of the Sanhedrin in his day.?? I was thinking that the doubt of Yishai was not about Moavi against Boaz, but rather whether his son could be fit to be king since his father and he might not be considered achicha, which a king must be, and therefore he did not want to have another child from Nitzeves, I.e. David Hamelech.<< The Kollel replies: >>Why wouldn’t they be considered Achicha if Boaz was correct? If you think it is because a woman who is a Giyores cannot have a descendant who is a king, even if her husband is a regular Jew, this is clearly incorrect. The Kesef Mishnah (Melachim 1:4) says that this is clearly disproven from Rechavam, who was the king after Shlomo, and whose mother was Na’amah Ha’Amonis. This is why the Kesef Mishnah says that the Halachah is that as long as one parent is not a Ger, whether it is the father or the mother, the person is called Achicha. (Some bring a similar proof from Avshalom, who was the son of an Eishes Yefas Toar, and we do not find any objection against him ruling from Achitofel and the others who supported him).<< --- Davic1 asks: Thank you. However the mystery otherwise is significant. Yishai had some safek yet he was on the Sanhedrin, and Eli. Shmuel and Achiya Hashiloni were all alive, and it was known as a halacha leMoshe meSinai to Avner Ben Ner and Yasra the Ishmaelite. So it would seem inconceivable that Yishai wouldn't know the halacha to avoid all the problems affecting his wife and Dovid!! Unless he had other cheshbonos in nistar. -- The Kollel replies: The Asarah Ma’amaros (Ma’amar Chiur Ha’Din 3:10) that I quoted in my original response addresses these questions. He says that Yishai separated from his wife due to a Midas Chassidus, because the Halachah was being questioned in that generation. It must be understood that since Doeg and Shaul had control of the Sanhedrin, it was quite easy for them to generate a lack of clarity in this matter, and especially among the people who trusted them. Accordingly, in order to stay away from any possible Chilul Hashem that might be caused, by one of the greatest people of the generation (who never sinned, as stated in Shabbos 55b) doing something that was being openly questioned by the Sanhedrin, Yishai separated from his wife. What clearly ended the discussion was when Yisra Ha’Yishmaeli basically threatened Doeg to stop this discussion with his sword, and the rumors that it was causing, which (when they ended) thereby removed the problem of any Chilul Hashem. All the best, Yaakov Montrose >>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<< The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf Write to us at [email protected] or visit us at http://www.dafyomi.co.il Tel/Fax(US): 646-820-3315; Fax(Isr): (02) 591-6024; Tel(Isr): (02) 651-5004 ___ Daf-discuss mailing list [email protected] http://mail.shemayisrael.co.il/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il
Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah Davic1 asks: A gute voch. Would you know a source I could read that explains why Yishai, the head of the Sanhedrin, had the sefekos about a female Moavi, I.e. his own grandmother Rus, when surely he knew the halacha just like his own grandfather Boaz, etc. Thanks David Goldman -- The Kollel replies: Regarding Boaz, the Maharsha and others on the Daf (77a) already discuss the calculations of Boaz, and why they were perhaps different than the average case. Additionally, I recommend reading through the Rama Mi’Pano’s discussion about Yishai’s actions in Asara Ma’amaros (Ma’amar Chikur ha’Din 3:10). [I personally find that it is very useful to use the commentary of the Yad Yehudah on the Rama Mi’Pano’s commentary.] All the best, Yaakov Montrose (See also the Chidushim on the Torah of Rav Yitzchak Zev Soloveichik of Brisk.- AP) --- Davic1 asks: In any case, once the true halacha was revealed by Boaz, then what place was there for Yishai's safek? Plus, isn't it surprising that even people such as Doeg and Sheva Ben Bichri did not recognize the psak of Boaz, who had been the head of the Sanhedrin in his day.?? I was thinking that the doubt of Yishai was not about Moavi against Boaz, but rather whether his son could be fit to be king since his father and he might not be considered achicha, which a king must be, and therefore he did not want to have another child from Nitzeves, I.e. David Hamelech. -- The Kollel replies: Why wouldn’t they be considered Achicha if Boaz was correct? If you think it is because a woman who is a Giyores cannot have a descendant who is a king, even if her husband is a regular Jew, this is clearly incorrect. The Kesef Mishnah (Melachim 1:4) says that this is clearly disproven from Rechavam, who was the king after Shlomo, and whose mother was Na’amah Ha’Amonis. This is why the Kesef Mishnah says that the Halachah is that as long as one parent is not a Ger, whether it is the father or the mother, the person is called Achicha. (Some bring a similar proof from Avshalom, who was the son of an Eishes Yefas Toar, and we do not find any objection against him ruling from Achitofel and the others who supported him). All the best, Yaakov Montrose >>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<< The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf Write to us at [email protected] or visit us at http://www.dafyomi.co.il Tel/Fax(US): 646-820-3315; Fax(Isr): (02) 591-6024; Tel(Isr): (02) 651-5004 ___ Daf-discuss mailing list [email protected] http://mail.shemayisrael.co.il/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il
Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah
x-mailing-list: [email protected](Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _ THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [email protected] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] Yevamos 076: Moavi v'Lo Moaviah Davic1 asks: A gute voch. Would you know a source I could read that explains why Yishai, the head of the Sanhedrin, had the sefekos about a female Moavi, I.e. his own grandmother Rus, when surely he knew the halacha just like his own grandfather Boaz, etc. Thanks David Goldman -- The Kollel replies: Regarding Boaz, the Maharsha and others on the Daf (77a) already discuss the calculations of Boaz, and why they were perhaps different than the average case. Additionally, I recommend reading through the Rama Mi’Pano’s discussion about Yishai’s actions in Asara Ma’amaros (Ma’amar Chikur ha’Din 3:10). [I personally find that it is very useful to use the commentary of the Yad Yehudah on the Rama Mi’Pano’s commentary.] All the best, Yaakov Montrose (See also the Chidushim on the Torah of Rav Yitzchak Zev Soloveichik of Brisk.- AP) >>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<< The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf Write to us at [email protected] or visit us at http://www.dafyomi.co.il Tel/Fax(US): 646-820-3315; Fax(Isr): (02) 591-6024; Tel(Isr): (02) 651-5004 ___ Daf-discuss mailing list [email protected] http://mail.shemayisrael.co.il/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il
