Re: [darktable-user] "selected image(s) - move..." doesn't move !?

[Michael Staats]

On 12/04/2021 06:10, Terry Pinfold wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>       my understanding of RAW files is that you can never overwrite your
> RAW files so they do not need read only permissions.
Hi Terry
Sure, not from darktable. But with any other tool, I can change them.

First thing that comes to my mind is of course exiv2/exiftool (and I
admit, sometimes I modify time stamps in my raw files, if e.g the camera
clock was wrong -- yes, I know, not recommended...)

But any other tool from emacs, vi, to ed or cat _can_ be used to modify
the file, if you want to. Any file (in Unix, and also other systems like
MS-DOS) is just a stream of bytes. (Although not in all OSes, but no one
here would be using them, including me ;-)

So setting the raw files to read-only is a good idea, I think I'll add
that to my import workflow.

Best regards,
Michael

--
Michael Staats
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Re: [darktable-user] "selected image(s) - move..." doesn't move !?

[Terry Pinfold]

Hi Michael,
  my understanding of RAW files is that you can never overwrite your
RAW files so they do not need read only permissions.

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 at 14:03, Michael Staats  wrote:

> On 11/04/2021 18:45, paka wrote:
>
> > and the action is quite expected
> > read-only files may be copied but not removed or executed.
> > that is the reason for "read-only"
>
> What? read-only means: You are allowed to read the file, but not to
> write to it. Whether you can "move" or "remove" it (i.e. unlink() it,
> i.e. remove an entry from the directory), is determined by the
> permissions on the directory, not the file. This is how it was desinged
> by the gods (Thompson, Ritchie).
>
> By the way: Actually, you cannot "delete" or "remove" a file in Unix,
> it's impossible from user land. The only thing you can do is unlink it,
> i.e. remove entries from a directory, and once the link count is zero
> (which may or may not be the case after one "rm"), the OS will delete
> the file for you.
>
> (MS-DOS, and it's newer versions under the name of Windows "work"
> differently, for loose definitions of "work". And it's inconsistent, as
> we see...).
>
> > why are you giving read-only permissions to the files?
>
> Maybe because every second post on this list tells you to NOT touch the
> raw files?
>
> Best regards,
> Michael
>
> --
> Michael Staats
> michael.sta...@gmx.de
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>

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Re: [darktable-user] "selected image(s) - move..." doesn't move !?

[Michael Staats]

On 11/04/2021 18:45, paka wrote:

> and the action is quite expected
> read-only files may be copied but not removed or executed.
> that is the reason for "read-only"

What? read-only means: You are allowed to read the file, but not to
write to it. Whether you can "move" or "remove" it (i.e. unlink() it,
i.e. remove an entry from the directory), is determined by the
permissions on the directory, not the file. This is how it was desinged
by the gods (Thompson, Ritchie).

By the way: Actually, you cannot "delete" or "remove" a file in Unix,
it's impossible from user land. The only thing you can do is unlink it,
i.e. remove entries from a directory, and once the link count is zero
(which may or may not be the case after one "rm"), the OS will delete
the file for you.

(MS-DOS, and it's newer versions under the name of Windows "work"
differently, for loose definitions of "work". And it's inconsistent, as
we see...).

> why are you giving read-only permissions to the files?

Maybe because every second post on this list tells you to NOT touch the
raw files?

Best regards,
Michael

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Re: [darktable-user] "selected image(s) - move..." doesn't move !?

[paka]

-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri 
http://en.opensuse.org    openSUSE Community Member    facebook/ptilopteri 
http://wahoo.no-ip.org    Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2   






On Sunday, April 11, 2021, 3:43:55 PM EDT, Ralf M.  wrote: 





Am 11.04.2021 um 18:45 schrieb paka:
> * Ralf M.  [04-10-21 22:26]:
>> Thanks for testing.
>> Today I had some time to figure out why it works for you but not for me.
>>
>> "darktable -d all" didn't tell me anything (no debug messages at all).
>>
>> Trying out all sorts of combinations I finally found:
>>
>>     Move doesn't move on Windows if
>>     a) the destination directory is on a different drive
>>      AND
>>     b) the image file has the readonly attribute set.
>>
>> dt moves non-ro-images from one drive to another, and moves ro-images within
>> one drive, but the combination doesn't work: The image file is copied to the
>> destination, but the original and the sidecar file stay in the source
>> directory.
>>
>> It's strange as the Windows Explorer happily moves ro-files from one drive
>> to another without even asking for confirmation.

[...]

Hello paka,

> and the action is quite expected
> read-only files may be copied but not removed or executed.
> that is the reason for "read-only"

I'm not talking about access permissions (like Posix rwx or NTFS Access 
Control Lists), but about an attribute that dates back to at least the 
1980s when DOS only knew the FAT file system and all file names where 
8.3. This attribute is still present in all Windows file systems and 
only prevents changes of the file content. It does not hinder file 
rename, moves (even from one filesystem to another) or execution, see 
example session below.

AFAIK Posix doesn't have an equivalent. I think sometimes, when this 
attribute needs to be mapped to a Posix filesystem, it is mapped to r--, 
even though r-- is much more restricitive than the readonly attribute.


> why are you giving read-only permissions to the files?

I set the attribute on my image files because there are some simple 
minded image viewers that change image files without asking and I want 
to prevent them doing so. (One example is the old Windows image viewer, 
it overwrites the file when you rotate the image in the viewer.)


An exmaple terminal session to demonstrate the r attribute:

F:\test>echo some arbitrary text > ro.txt

F:\test>attrib +r ro.txt

F:\test>attrib ro.txt
A    R      F:\test\ro.txt

F:\test>rename ro.txt readonly.txt

F:\test>dir
  Datenträger in Laufwerk F: ist Fast Data
  Volumeseriennummer: BC3F-2127

  Verzeichnis von F:\test

11.04.2021  21:11              .
11.04.2021  21:11              ..
11.04.2021  21:10                22 readonly.txt
                1 Datei(en),            22 Bytes
                2 Verzeichnis(se), 21.418.508.288 Bytes frei

F:\test>move readonly.txt c:\test\r-only.txt
        1 Datei(en) verschoben.

F:\test>dir
  Datenträger in Laufwerk F: ist Fast Data
  Volumeseriennummer: BC3F-2127

  Verzeichnis von F:\test

11.04.2021  21:12              .
11.04.2021  21:12              ..
                0 Datei(en),              0 Bytes
                2 Verzeichnis(se), 21.418.508.288 Bytes frei

F:\test>c:

C:\test>type r-only.txt
some arbitrary text

C:\test>attrib +r wget.exe

C:\test>wget --help
GNU Wget 1.19.1, a non-interactive network retriever.
Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]...
[... many more lines ...]


sorry, my mis-understanding.  your problem is dealing with a brain-dead 
operating system.
I hope it doesn't affect your longevity.  

I must say I did experiment some with windows 2.99 but returned to cp/m.  
yes, I am aged :)

--
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri 
http://en.opensuse.org    openSUSE Community Member    facebook/ptilopteri 
http://wahoo.no-ip.org    Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2  


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Re: [darktable-user] "selected image(s) - move..." doesn't move !?

[paka]

* Ralf M.  [04-10-21 22:26]:
> Thanks for testing.
> Today I had some time to figure out why it works for you but not for me.
>
> "darktable -d all" didn't tell me anything (no debug messages at all).
>
> Trying out all sorts of combinations I finally found:
>
>   Move doesn't move on Windows if
>   a) the destination directory is on a different drive
>    AND
>   b) the image file has the readonly attribute set.
>
> dt moves non-ro-images from one drive to another, and moves ro-images within
> one drive, but the combination doesn't work: The image file is copied to the
> destination, but the original and the sidecar file stay in the source
> directory.
>
> It's strange as the Windows Explorer happily moves ro-files from one drive
> to another without even asking for confirmation.
>
> I got what I wanted by temporarily removing the readonly attribute.
>
> Maybe this information is helpful to others.
>
> Best regards,
> Ralf M.
>
> Am 06.04.2021 um 00:31 schrieb Terry Pinfold:
> > I am using Windows build 3.4.1.1 and the function of move worked fine
> > for me when I just tested it.
> >
> > On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 at 06:33, Guillermo Rozas  > > wrote:
> >
> > Am I doing anything wrong?
> > What is the correct procedure to achieve what I expected move to do?
> >
> >
> > I'm using dt 3.4.1.1 on Windows.
> > The images to be moved are TIFFs (film scans).
> > Source and destination directory are on different volumes, i.e.
> > the move
> > means in reality copy and delete source.
> >
> >
> > You're doing it right, and I just tested it on Linux and it works
> > correctly.  Maybe a Windows-related bug, but I can't confirm it as I
> > don't have a darktable installation on Windows.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Guillermo
> >
> > 
> >
> > darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> > 
> >


and the action is quite expected
read-only files may be copied but not removed or executed.
that is the reason for "read-only"

why are you giving read-only permissions to the files?




-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri 
http://en.opensuse.org    openSUSE Community Member    facebook/ptilopteri 
http://wahoo.no-ip.org    Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 

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Re: [darktable-user] Newbie

[Leong KT]

Thank you for the advices from this group. I shall now put my nose to the 
grindstone. I shall get back to you later.

This is a great group.

Ka Tai




> On 11 Apr 2021, at 08:28, Terry Pinfold  wrote:
> 
> My advice is not to fall into the trap of expecting Darktable to be a direct 
> Lightroom replacement. I still use LR to catalog and import/sort my images, 
> but when it comes to the editing, I just love the depth of control, options 
> and masks to be found in Darktable. You must read relevant parts of the 
> manual and watch videos including by my fellow Australian Bruce Williams. 
> There are some videos very technical videos produced by one of the 
> developers, Aurelien Pierre, which would help you understand the unique 
> modules he creates including Filmic. Filmic is an alternative to using base 
> curves. Base curves are used to imitate the out of camera JPG look that we 
> expect from programs like Lightroom. Filmic gives in my opinion a superior 
> result without trying to be an imitation of the out of camera look. It 
> reminds me more of an analog film look. 
> 
> Take home message is that darktable is really worth the effort to learn. It 
> is my favourite editing program.  
> 
> 
> From: Bruce Williams 
> Sent: Saturday, 10 April 2021 8:50 PM
> To: darktable-user 
> Subject: Fwd: [darktable-user] Newbie
>  
> Thanks for the plugs, Martin and Archie! :)
> Cheers,
> Bruce Williams
> --
> brucewilliamsphotography.com
> shuttersincpodcast.com
> 
> e-mail | Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | Soundcloud | Quora
> --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Archie Macintosh 
> Date: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [darktable-user] Newbie
> To: Leong KT 
> Cc: Archie Macintosh , Monsieur N 
> , darktable-user 
> 
> 
> There's a comprehesive manual here:
> https://www.darktable.org/usermanual/en/
> 
> (Though it can be a bit 'technical' till you get used to the concepts.
> 
> 
> And there's an excellent series of videos by Bruce Williams, who
> really knows how to make short training videos, here:
> https://www.youtube.com/user/audio2u/videos
> 
> Take your time, and try things out for yourself.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 at 10:39, Leong KT  wrote:
> >
> > Is my face red!
> >
> > I have downloaded and install it now. And it works with X100V files. I 
> > guess I shall play with it for a while. It does not seem to be straight 
> > forward like Lightroom to me, but it is a new concept.
> >
> > For example, does it keep a catalogue? If so, where is it?
> >
> > Thank you for your help.
> >
> > Ka Tai
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 9 Apr 2021, at 16:18, Archie Macintosh  wrote:
> > >
> > > The Mac package works just fine. I’ve installed dt on MacOS using the Mac 
> > > packages up to and including Catalina.
> > >
> > > My current installation of dt using the Mac package is very stable. So I 
> > > have no hesitation in recommending it to you.
> > >
> > > Download the .dmg here:
> > > https://www.darktable.org/install/#macos
> > >
> > > Enjoy!
> > >
> > > On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 08:11, Leong KT  wrote:
> > > Actually I use Mac, which encourages the user to be idiots. There is a 
> > > Mac version of Darktable, but I have been advised not to install from 
> > > that. Instead I need to go through a process which involves quite a bit 
> > > of command lines. That is why I think it is complicated. I guess I can 
> > > try it step by step.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, the main reason I want to switch is because Lightroom 
> > > 6 does not support X100V raw files. I have tried Adobe DNG convertor a 
> > > few weeks ago and it did not work either. I am glad to hear that 
> > > Darktable works for X100V.
> > >
> > > This is a great group. I shall keep in touch with my progress.
> > >
> > > Ka Tai
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 8 Apr 2021, at 18:22, Monsieur N  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to you !
> > > >
> > > > Do you use Windows or Linux ?
> > > >
> > > > N
> > > >
> > > > Le 08/04/2021 à 11:26, Leong KT a écrit :
> > > >> I am a photographer and have been using Lightroom for many years. It 
> > > >> works fine for me. But I am really put off by the subscription model 
> > > >> and have stuck to Lightroom 6. Recently I bought the Fujifilm X100V. 
> > > >> It is like going back to the days when all I had was a beaten up Leica 
> > > >> and a 35mm lens. I can concentrate on the photo instead of the 
> > > >> equipment.
> > > >>
> > > >> But Lightroom 6 does not support X100V raw files. I have to subscribe 
> > > >> to get the update.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am thinking of changing over to Darktable. Does it support X100V raw 
> > > >> files? Also, it seems that installing Darktable seems dauntingly 
> > > >> complicated. Is there a simple workaround?
> > > >>
> > > >> Thank you for your help.
> > > >>
> > > >> Ka 
> > > >>