Re: [Dbix-class] The email I didn't want to write.

[Christian Walde]

On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 11:50:24 +0100, Peter Rabbitson  
 wrote:


Citation needed. Please provide an example where I have been abusive or  
even slightly unprofessional in a bugreport. Issue trackers are  
generally always part of the public record, so it shouldn't be a problem  
to back up what was said above.


I didn't want to bother, but rereading riba's arrogance and deceit  
combined with your past actions make me angry enough to bother.


He'll probably enjoy that i write this, but well, if he does, he's free to  
enjoy it while he can.


Meanwhile i think it's only fair that his userbase knows what his  
principles really *mean*.


The following did not have him act in an RT queue, but since his actions  
were in direct response and aimed towards affecting a ticket i filed, it  
is fair to bring up.


He did abuse me on IRC with the goal to get me to give up on the ticket.

He plainly said this to me and tried to justify it as being his duty as an  
engineer.


I did indeed give up on a ticket despite still considering it valid and in  
need of action due to him.


I had forgotten about it for months and not done anything about it at all.  
A reasonable person should think that would be enough for him to cross it  
off as done and leave things be.


However for some insane reason he thought it was appropiate to approach me  
again, a YEAR after i had originally filed the ticket, and tell me these  
things:


[...]
16-01-08@23:11:43 (ribasushi) I re-read the log in p5p several times in  
the past week

[...]
16-01-08@23:12:21 (ribasushi) if you agree for me to publish it unmodified  
(at most with slight reorder to compensate for IRC lag)
16-01-08@23:12:33 (ribasushi) I will publicly own to say in no uncertain  
terms that I went *EASY* on you

16-01-08@23:12:35 (ribasushi) and that I regret it
16-01-08@23:13:09 (Mithaldu) regret going easy, or having done it in the  
first place instead of looking at it on technical merits?

16-01-08@23:13:22 (ribasushi) I looked at the technical merits
16-01-08@23:13:25 (Mithaldu) also, publish whatever you liked
16-01-08@23:13:33 (ribasushi) and I didn't shut it down quickly enough nor  
forcefully enough

16-01-08@23:13:39 (Mithaldu) jesus fuck
16-01-08@23:13:43 (ribasushi) I wasn't using "radical candor" correctly
16-01-08@23:13:46 (Mithaldu) you are an abbhorrent piece of shit
16-01-08@23:13:53 (ribasushi) and this is something I do regret
[...]

He might possibly argue that this was him being professional, delivering a  
final kick to the liver to ensure it sticks.


However in no possible conceivable way does this deserve ANY respite from  
receiving the label "abusive".


I am also not the only person to be treated like that. He said the  
following about his treatment of another developer in various venues,  
including a github queue:


15-05-11@14:00:22 (ribasushi) at this point it is *my engineering duty* to  
drive him away from perl


Again, he probably thinks it is professional to do that, but trying to  
claim here that it is not abuse is a lie, given he has stated outright  
that he was abusing said dev with that particular goal.


--
With hate,
Christian Walde

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Re: [Dbix-class] The email I didn't want to write.

[Matt S Trout]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2016 at 11:33:12PM +, Matt S Trout wrote:
> > >...
> > >
> > >Meanwhile, we've now reached a point where seeing a ticket or patch sent in
> > >by ribasushi tends to result in people ignoring it for a few days because
> > >they need to work up the emotional stoicism required to deal with the 
> > >chances
> > >of it being a useful patch/ticket that happens to come with a free polemic.
> > 
> > Citation needed. Please provide an example where I have been abusive
> > or even slightly unprofessional in a bugreport. Issue trackers are
> > generally always part of the public record, so it shouldn't be a
> > problem to back up what was said above.
> 
> I could go back and find somebody mentioning being made to feel like that
> and to then cross-reference to the ticket, but that would require outing
> them as having said so and given your general treatment of disagreement in
> this thread I'm not convinced that's fair. People may choose to disregard
> this assertion on my part as a result if they so wish.

Ah, here we go, one where the author has largely noped out of the perl
community after the resulting debacle:

https://github.com/perl5-utils/List-MoreUtils/pull/9

Impugning character rather than acknowledging technical disagreement:

"Still utterly missing (or deliberately ignoring) the actual problem..."

The various unncessary bolding that simply makes the tone more hostile.

Describing the thread as a "train-wreck of a conversation"

Resulting in (1) rehsack considering that "My impression is still that
most of the thread is more about mood than about hard facts." and (2)
rejecting further discussion with "Personal hint - stop the affronts and
search for a way to step forward in a cooperative manner."

Even if riba genuinely believes in his reply of:

"I urge you to stop making it personal. None of the recent discussions
are about you. They are fully and exclusively about grossly suboptimal
decisions. You just happened to be the one who carried these decisions out."

I feel like "it's not about you, it's just about all your decisions being
terrible" isn't really an effective way to move things forwards, especially
since it clearly resulted in the actual argument we were trying to make
being lost since rehsack's take-away was

"Trying to enforce something without technical reason in a technical world
is insane and the way how you do it is personal."

This is a classic example of a conversation where I was on the same side of
the technical argument as ribasushi, but his presence actively impeded being
able to have the technical argument in a constructive fashion.

Would this have gone better without riba's involvement? Maybe not - but it
seems moderately unlikely to me that it could've gone worse.

tl;dr: If people take your words personally, it's generally easier to change
your words than everybody else. I'm far from claiming that I'm perfect at
this, but I find it deeply unfortunate that ribasushi seems to believe that
there's nothing to be gained from even trying.

(you will also find that I'm in that thread as well, and also somewhat
annoyed, but never resorted to accusations of deliberately ignoring the
problem nor to throwing about random bits of bolding to add negative
emotional content that is almost invariably counterproductive to achieving
a constructive result)

-- 
Matt S Trout - Shadowcat Systems - Perl consulting with a commit bit and a clue

http://shadowcat.co.uk/blog/matt-s-trout/   http://twitter.com/shadowcat_mst/

Email me now on mst (at) shadowcat.co.uk and let's chat about how our CPAN
commercial support, training and consultancy packages could help your team.

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Re: [Dbix-class] GOVERNANCE: Aggregation and conclusion

[Nigel Metheringham]

I have a distinct feeling that this discussion is going deja vu all over
again, but from my point of view I vote:-

+1 Matt's proposal (new project team)
-1 to forking



-- 

[ Nigel Metheringham -- ni...@dotdot.it ] 
[ Ellipsis Intangible Technologies  ]
 



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