Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
On 6 August 2011 19:41, martin f krafft madd...@debconf.org wrote: As said before, this reverses responsibility. It is *your* responsibility to ensure that whatever you do does not interfere with the privacy, intimacy, and freedom of others. An argument like I've tried, but I have bad memory and thus … is just a cop-out. Legally there are only two real options: * either we view Debconf as an newsworthy even of public import (or whatever the exact definition is in your region) and in that case there is no expectation of privacy; * or, if we reject the above assertion, then EVERY photographer must get EVERY person in EACH photograph to PHYSICALLY SIGN a printed Model Release Form before any such image can be published in any shape or form. Same for video. If we go the second route, then I don't think there will be very many human-containing photos or videos from the next Debconf, if any at all. If we go the first route, then, while we are not we are not legally obliged to do so, but as a courtesy we will take down images and try to avoid taking them if people specifically request so, as it has always been done in the past. There is no middle road, unfortunately. As we all know, copyright law is quite .. nuclear in its approach to mosquito safety. -- Best regards, Aigars Mahinovs mailto:aigar...@debian.org #--# | .''`. Debian GNU/Linux (http://www.debian.org) | | : :' : Latvian Open Source Assoc. (http://www.laka.lv) | | `. `' Linux Administration and Free Software Consulting | | `- (http://www.aiteki.com) | #--# ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
* Aigars Mahinovs (aigar...@gmail.com) [110807 11:43]: On 6 August 2011 19:41, martin f krafft madd...@debconf.org wrote: As said before, this reverses responsibility. It is *your* responsibility to ensure that whatever you do does not interfere with the privacy, intimacy, and freedom of others. An argument like I've tried, but I have bad memory and thus … is just a cop-out. Legally there are only two real options: * either we view Debconf as an newsworthy even of public import (or whatever the exact definition is in your region) and in that case there is no expectation of privacy; Actually, at least in this legal area here, one is only allowed to use these pictures related to the event, within context, and where and as far useful for reporting. So, one could publish a picture of someone giving an talk with names and talk title added to the picture. Also, there is no issue with a picture of the hacklab with a group of people titled as Developers in the hacklab. However, adding the names of the developers to the picture would be an issue, because it doesn't improve the report - and yes, I think that's the sensible border. And only one developer in the picture at the hacklab is also an issue. That's why e.g. being part of the group picture is totally different from per-person-shots. (There is an additional rule for people so important for history that they can be published always and everywhere even without context. But that doesn't apply to anyone within Debconf, at least AFAICS.) Any picture one publishes needs to be legally ok. Which either goes via the rule above, or by asking people. Like always. And it doesn't prevent pictures with people in it - it does prevent pictures with only few or named people in it who are not asked unless in a situation one could report about. Andi ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
On Sat, Aug 06, 2011 at 10:17:19PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: I suggest that in the future, DebConf adopts a codex which asks of participants only to publish those photos for which they have received explicit consent, before or afterwards. I hope not. While I don't take photos myself, I often enjoy other people's photos. I think you are trying to place an unreasonable and undue burden on the photographers. The starting point must be that people usually have the right to publish their photos. Since in those cases the most you can do is to kindly ask them to not photograph you or remove a photo of you, I do consider it entirely unreasonable to try to place on them the heavy burden of having to obtain consent before publishing. That would make photography unnecessarily difficult in a case where there can be no reasonable expectation of privacy. I, and I suspect many others, like having photos of DebConf. The effect of what you demand would be to suppress many photos that nobody would object to simply because someone somewhere could have had an objection to the photo and the photographer never got around to asking. No. In the case of quite normal, innocent photos that burden should not be on the photographers. Sami signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 03:40:06PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: I really would have wished that people had been much more considerate about uploading other people's pictures to the public Web. I for one do not want my pictures on the Internet. I also realise that this is a fight against windmills and am rather sad about that. I understand that sentiment, but it is indeed very difficult to do. Personally, I love taking pictures of people without their knowledge. Not because I like embarrasing people, but because in my opinion, portraits that are made without the subject's knowledge usually turn out for the best. I have a 300mm lens that allows me to take a close-up picture far enough away from the subject that you wouldn't be aware of it unless you just happen to be looking in my general direction (and then still), and which I have used at debconf. I also don't try to remember who likes to have their picture taken and who doesn't. I have tried doing so in the past, but first I'm terrible at remembering such things, and second trying to remember whether this particular person likes it or not interferes with creativity to the point of me not being able to take any good pictures anymore, even of people who I know don't mind. That doesn't mean I don't understand your sentiment, however, and I do try to accomodate as much as possible: - If you ever, at any time, see me pointing a lens at you, do not hesitate to ask me to see the picture. If you really, really, /really/ do not like it, I'll remove it from my camera, even if I think it's one of the best pictures I've ever taken (though in that case, I might try to reason with you first :-) - If you ever, at any time, see me taking pictures of people at random, do not hesitate to ask me whether I've taken any of you, and if so, do the above. - If you see a picture of you, taken by me, on some website somewhere, and you'd rather it wasn't available, just tell me and I'll take it down. - At any rate, while I do tag pictures of people with the names of the people featured on that picture _in my private digiKam database_, I will never tag said pictures on a public website with the names of people. I think doing this keeps some sort of middle ground between accomodating people who do not want their pictures taken or published, and accomodating photographers who don't want to spend five minutes checking a website before being allowed to take a picture. -- The volume of a pizza of thickness a and radius z can be described by the following formula: pi zz a signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
also sprach Wouter Verhelst wou...@debian.org [2011.08.06.1113 +0200]: Personally, I love taking pictures of people without their knowledge. Personally, I dislike having my picture taken without my knowledge. - If you ever, at any time, see me pointing a lens at you, do not hesitate to ask me to see the picture. If you really, really, /really/ do not like it, I'll remove it from my camera, even if I think it's one of the best pictures I've ever taken (though in that case, I might try to reason with you first :-) - If you ever, at any time, see me taking pictures of people at random, do not hesitate to ask me whether I've taken any of you, and if so, do the above. - If you see a picture of you, taken by me, on some website somewhere, and you'd rather it wasn't available, just tell me and I'll take it down. - At any rate, while I do tag pictures of people with the names of the people featured on that picture _in my private digiKam database_, I will never tag said pictures on a public website with the names of people. As said before, this reverses responsibility. It is *your* responsibility to ensure that whatever you do does not interfere with the privacy, intimacy, and freedom of others. An argument like I've tried, but I have bad memory and thus … is just a cop-out. I know that it's common nowadays to delegate responsibility to others (think bankers, politicians, environmental criminals, etc.), but this does not mean it's right. In fact, it's awfully wrong, and if I could change only one thing about our society (halt one alarming development), then I would not hesitate: consequences of actions shall remain with those who are responsible for them. No exceptions. Of course there are hardly going to be consequences of your taking pictures of me (I do not believe in self-justice, and the law is a regional thing it seems), so all I can do is appeal to is your decency. And just in case this isn't clear: this is not between Wouter and I. I would tend to think that this is between everyone wanting to take portraits of others, and those who have not explicitly voiced their agreement (like e.g. Christian Perrier did). But correct me if I am wrong. Just because technology makes it possible does not mean that suddenly anything goes. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org : :' : ex-DebConf orga team; ex-press officer `. `'` `- DebConf12: Managua, Nicaragua: http://debconf11.debconf.org life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. -- john lennon digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
also sprach Aigars Mahinovs aigar...@gmail.com [2011.08.06.1941 +0200]: Legally there are only two real options: Who cares about legally? I am talking decency. If we go the second route, then I don't think there will be very many human-containing photos or videos from the next Debconf, if any at all. I prefer having a few good pictures *put on the Net* over a thousand mediocre ones. I realise that it's asking a lot for people to obtain consent prior to taking the photos — and I agree that some of the best snapshots are those of unaware subjects. And quite frankly, what you do for your own, private collection, is not my concern. I.e. if I end up in your family picturebook, so be it. I suggest that in the future, DebConf adopts a codex which asks of participants only to publish those photos for which they have received explicit consent, before or afterwards. So if Wouter and you and whoever else deem it worthwhile to capture life-as-it-comes into two dimensional representations, then take your camera over to the people you just froze into pixels, show them the screen, and get the okay — or delete the picture. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org : :' : ex-DebConf orga team; ex-press officer `. `'` `- DebConf12: Managua, Nicaragua: http://debconf11.debconf.org in the beginning was the word, and the word was content-type: text/plain digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: However, I would be totally opposed to people tagging/labelling pictures with the name of attendees, without those attendees knowing it. In short: OK (sort of): publishing (reasonable) pictures of attendees without them knowing about it. Not OK: helping search engines index them using attendees' names. When did the DebConf group photo start having those? I think it would better if we went back to an anonymous group photo plus mugshots for those who don't mind being tagged. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
On Freitag, 5. August 2011, Paul Wise wrote: I think it would better if we went back to an anonymous group photo plus mugshots for those who don't mind being tagged. +1 ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
On 11-08-05 at 05:49pm, Paul Wise wrote: On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: However, I would be totally opposed to people tagging/labelling pictures with the name of attendees, without those attendees knowing it. In short: OK (sort of): publishing (reasonable) pictures of attendees without them knowing about it. Not OK: helping search engines index them using attendees' names. When did the DebConf group photo start having those? I believe Debconf5 in Helsinki had names attached while Debconf4 in Porto Alegre (my first) didn't. I think it would better if we went back to an anonymous group photo plus mugshots for those who don't mind being tagged. I have no strong opinion on this. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
Hi! * Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk [110805 18:15]: When did the DebConf group photo start having those? I believe Debconf5 in Helsinki had names attached while Debconf4 in Porto Alegre (my first) didn't. DebConf3 had one, too: http://www.marlow.dk/site.php/pics/debconf3 Best Regards, Alexander ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 03:40:06PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
I really would have wished that people had been much more
considerate about uploading other people's pictures to the public
Web.
I for one do not want my pictures on the Internet.
I also realise that this is a fight against windmills and am rather
sad about that.
Well, if we decide to ask permission for each attendee before uploading DebConf
pictures we wouldn't have pictures published at all, which is too bad.
To improve things here you can ping the photographer in pvt and reduce the
chance of having your photo forever in the cloud. If it's not enough for you
(and other people), I propose a way to have your face somewhere (penta?) with
explicit instruction like don't make public any shot that contains this face.
I'm sure the DC friendly photographers will respect your wishes.
Regards,
--
.''`. Tiago Bortoletto Vaz GPG : 1024D/A504FECA
: :' : http://tiagovaz.org XMPP : tiago at jabber.org
`. `' tiago at {tiagovaz,debian}.org IRC : tiago at OFTC
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Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
also sprach Tiago Bortoletto Vaz ti...@debian.org [2011.07.30.1546 +0200]: Well, if we decide to ask permission for each attendee before uploading DebConf pictures we wouldn't have pictures published at all, which is too bad. I call it basic decency. To improve things here you can ping the photographer in pvt and reduce the chance of having your photo forever in the cloud. If it's not enough for you (and other people), I propose a way to have your face somewhere (penta?) with explicit instruction like don't make public any shot that contains this face. DC10 supposedly had this. I would be in favour of adding it again. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org : :' : ex-DebConf orga team; ex-press officer `. `'` `- DebConf11: Banja Luka, Bosnia: http://debconf11.debconf.org the husbands of very beautiful women belong to the criminal classes. -- oscar wilde digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
[Tiago Bortoletto Vaz] Well, if we decide to ask permission for each attendee before uploading DebConf pictures we wouldn't have pictures published at all, which is too bad. In Norway, you are required by law to ask for permission for the person in the picture before publishing, with some exceptions. If I remember correctly, the exceptions are pictures showing a public place and not having a person as the main part of the picture, pictures showing events in the public interest (ie the press covering something important) and picures where the people can not be identified. So it is not unheard of, even if you believe it is a sad approach. To improve things here you can ping the photographer in pvt and reduce the chance of having your photo forever in the cloud. If it's not enough for you (and other people), I propose a way to have your face somewhere (penta?) with explicit instruction like don't make public any shot that contains this face. I'm sure the DC friendly photographers will respect your wishes. This is backwards, and places the responsibility of other peoples actions (ie photographers pubishing their pictures) into the hands of people that can't know when the problem occurs (ie in some picture and not aware that the photographs are making them public). The person publishing a picture should be responsible for the choice and ensuring that the privacy of others is respected, not the persons in the pictures. Happy hacking, -- Petter Reinholdtsen ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
hi, On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 03:40:06PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: I really would have wished that people had been much more considerate about uploading other people's pictures to the public Web. I for one do not want my pictures on the Internet. I also realise that this is a fight against windmills and am rather sad about that. Well usually I do not upload pictures, but... 1. There were pictures available already. 2. I removed most what can be considered questionable, or unpleasant for the person in question before posting to the list. 3. I consider these as public event. 4. There was interest for the bike tour pictures. You can ask for picture removal (I think you are on none of thie pictures). Regards, cstamas -- CSILLAG Tamas (cstamas) - http://digitus.itk.ppke.hu/~cstamas ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
Re: [Debconf-discuss] pictures and privacy (was: my pictures so far (including the bicyle tour))
On Sat, 2011-07-30 at 16:03 +0200, Aigars Mahinovs wrote: On 30 July 2011 16:01, Petter Reinholdtsen p...@hungry.com wrote: In Norway, you are required by law to ask for permission for the person in the picture before publishing, with some exceptions. If I remember correctly, the exceptions are pictures showing a public place and not having a person as the main part of the picture, pictures showing events in the public interest (ie the press covering something important) and picures where the people can not be identified. In that case I consider the Debian conference an event of public interest. Further, everyone should be aware that there are video cameras covering the talks. If you don't want to be recorded, stay at home and watch the streams. Ben. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Debconf-discuss mailing list Debconf-discuss@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-discuss
