Hi Josselin,
here's my take as d-i release guy. That's basically in line with
Christian's except for the last answer.
I'm also putting -boot@ in Cc so that other d-i members can voice their
opinions. Full mail can be found at:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/08/msg00432.html
+++ Kees de Jong [2014-08-12 02:03 +0200]:
Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? How many people
here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. In two years
that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. How much RAM does your
browser use?
Too
+++ Anthony F McInerney [2014-08-12 00:02 +0100]:
XFCE:
total used free sharedbuffers cached
Mem:506756 362468 144288 6568 22756 179264
-/+ buffers/cache: 160448 346308
Swap: 392188 0
Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 03:03 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit :
I had stated previously XFCE had started showing memory usage similar
to gnome. This has quite obviously changed. I was wrong, and i'm
posting it as a correction to my statement.
You’re comparing apples and oranges. These
On 12 August 2014 09:51, Wookey woo...@wookware.org wrote:
Could you do MATE too please?
MATE: (with mate-desktop-environment-extras)
free ^[[C total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 506756 397480 109276
7096 58820 166076 -/+ buffers/cache: 172584 334172
Swap: 392188 0 392188
The ctrl
We happen at work to have users with very important needs of 3D
resources, so one of my colleagues conducted some performance tests with
and without a compositor (the compositor being GNOME 3).
It turns out that with a recent adapter, 3D applications are running a
small bit faster under
Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 13:12 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit :
Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed)
Glxgears is not a relevant 3D benchmark.
But the funniest thing is that you did this test without any 3D
acceleration, which is not representative at all of most real-world
I enjoy the way you keep ignoring the relevant points, memory usage and
performance regressions. And the way you benchmarked gnome against gnome.
How about warsaw on xfce on the same hardware or your benchmarks pretty
much show nothing except that your 'slight performance increase when using
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:22:01PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
I just had a look at an online hardware store.
Out of their 682 laptops and 332 desktops:
* 1 model has 1 GiB
* 48 models have 2 GiB
* 470 models have 4 GiB
* 495 have 6 GiB or more
Which means
Jordi Mallach writes (Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop):
It's been around 9 months since tasksel changed (for real) the default
desktop for new installs. At the time of the change, it was mentioned
the issue would be revisited before the freeze, around debconf time.
Fascinating
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:20:49AM +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr,
especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price
checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of
CD's, vs
On Mon, 11 Aug, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Thomas Weber twe...@debian.org
wrote:
Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's
look
at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here):
at bottom :-
On 8/11/14, Thomas Weber twe...@debian.org wrote:
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:20:49AM +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr,
especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price
checkers etc) of
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:15:15AM +0200, Thomas Weber wrote:
Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look
at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here):
http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies
Hi,
Lennart Sorensen:
it needs buttons on windows that people expect to see where they expect
to see them
You mean left vs. right side?
Would Debian be willing to make gnome3 have different defaults than
upstream in the interest of actually being useable to new users who are
used to other
Quoting David Weinehall (2014-08-10 22:59:45)
On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
The issue here really is how big is it? rather than hos many disks
[of which kind] does it fit onto?.
unable to fit on a single image is not only about use of said
storage
Quoting Olav Vitters (2014-08-11 11:21:14)
On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
Quite a few places in the World have poor and/or expensive internet
access. Larger default desktop will hurt the most in developing
countries: non-techies gets discourages to use
2014/08/12 1:12 Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk:
[...]
Still you are talking about cost in time. Few I have met in developing
countries were poor measured in time available.
[...]
Developed country (Japan). My wife makes me scrimp on everything, so I
still have megabit/sec download. Fiber or
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:23:38AM +0001, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
And if it's machines in the wild with CD drives still again, we
have woody, squeeze and wheezy for them.
Does woody still have security support? In not, there are many old
machines for which it is no longer an
On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 03:20 +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
[...]
If people have old CD only machines i would not like to attempt to get
kernel 3.16 +drivers +userland working on that. I've been in that
situation plenty of times, where woody or potato are better simply
because the drivers
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 05:34:04PM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
You mean left vs. right side?
Or even showing them at all (certainly last time I bothered to look at
gnome 3 it seemed to think buttons on windows were mostly to be avoided).
People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
I do: I see a reason to netinst a 0.629xCD size desktop install rather
than a 0.829xCD size desktop when bandwidth is costly.
Yes, but if you netinst you can *pick* your desktop, it's not like you
have to pick the default. Do a
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:35:28PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
All I personally expect from a window manager is:
Be able to launch programs (ideally using alt+F2)
Available in GNOME 3.
Be able to resize the window using the edge of the window
Available in GNOME 3.
Have a
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:35:28PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 05:34:04PM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Or even showing them at all (certainly last time I bothered to look at
gnome 3 it seemed to think buttons on windows were mostly to be avoided).
People who
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
Available in GNOME 3.
Available in GNOME 3.
Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
using gnome-tweak-tool.
I shouldn't have to know that. And I am pretty sure when gnome3 appeared
in sid,
How do you measure memory? Free?
Could you quite possibly post the output of free and whatever else you
measure with? (the full output)
For reference against jessie, i'm installing an up to date jessie right
now...
Thanks
Anthony (bofh80)
On Lu, 11 aug 14, 19:38:47, David Weinehall wrote:
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
I do: I see a reason to netinst a 0.629xCD size desktop install rather
than a 0.829xCD size desktop when bandwidth is costly.
Yes, but if you netinst you can *pick* your
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:47:53PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
Available in GNOME 3.
Available in GNOME 3.
Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
using gnome-tweak-tool.
I
XFCE:
total used free sharedbuffers cached
Mem:506756 362468 144288 6568 22756 179264
-/+ buffers/cache: 160448 346308
Swap: 392188 0 392188
GNOME:
total used free shared
Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? How many people
here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. In two years
that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. How much RAM does your
browser use? My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB. My GNOME 3.10 desktop
(running
On 12 August 2014 01:03, Kees de Jong keesdej...@gmail.com wrote:
Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's?
I had stated previously XFCE had started showing memory usage similar to
gnome. This has quite obviously changed. I was wrong, and i'm posting it as
a correction to my
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 02:03:39AM +0200, Kees de Jong wrote:
Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? How many people
here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. In two years
that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. How much RAM does your
browser use?
Why are we discussing CD/DVD sizes? Why not just use an USB
netinstall? It's then possible to download and install the stuff you
need, if you don't want to use a lot of bandwidth then choose no
desktop environment or XFCE/LXDE. But if you can spare some more time
then you can install GNOME/KDE.
On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
The issue here really is how big is it? rather than hos many disks
[of which kind] does it fit onto?.
unable to fit on a single image is not only about use of said storage
devices for installation, but also an indication
2014/08/08 18:14 Yves-Alexis Perez cor...@debian.org:
[...]
Put it another way, Xfce (and other DEs) have been hurt by the various
enforced transitions (ConsoleKit,
hal/devicekit-power/upower/upower-0.99), yes. Combined with the lack of
resources, that means it lays behind the people who
2014/08/08 6:58 Jordi Mallach jo...@debian.org:
Hi Debian,
It's been around 9 months since tasksel changed (for real) the default
desktop for new installs. At the time of the change, it was mentioned
the issue would be revisited before the freeze, around debconf time.
Well, it's roughly
(Sure wish I could get drivers for this Acer tablet so I could get replace
the vendor-constricted Android with a real OS and get software that
wouldn't misinterpret what my fingers do on the screen. But, then, I
suppose I should go to the trouble of booting up a regular computer for
this.)
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 7:49 AM, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
(Having booted up a real OS, but still using Google's webmail fake MUA. heh.)
[...]
2014/08/11 7:32 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com:
2014/08/08 6:58 Jordi Mallach jo...@debian.org:
[...]
systemd embracing: One of the
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512
On 08/10/2014 02:39 PM, Kees de Jong wrote:
Why are we discussing CD/DVD sizes? Why not just use an USB
netinstall? It's then possible to download and install the stuff you
need, if you don't want to use a lot of bandwidth then choose no
Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr,
especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price
checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of
CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is the
price
On ven., 2014-08-08 at 18:38 -0700, Paul C. Bryan wrote:
With all due respect to XFCE, I'd hate the interpretation to be along
the lines of, Oh, Debian state of the art desktop environment feels
something like Windows, circa 2000. But, XFCE's lightweight. It's
meant
to lack such fancy
On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Michael Gilbert wrote:
The better question is whether the xfce switch had or has any
influence on slowing the general debian growth rate [0]? Is the
slight downtick over the last few months due to the default desktop,
or some other change that users aren't
Also:
http://oskuro.net/blog/freesoftware/gnome-as-default-jessie-desktop-2014-08-07-23-58
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Archive:
* Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org wrote:
...And I'd like us to consider this point as well: How important are
CD images nowadays? Who has a CD that cannot read a DVD?
You may visit some poorer people in the world.
But hey, if they want CD-bread, why don't they just eat DVD-cake.
--
To
Quoting Gunnar Wolf (2014-08-08 05:34:29)
One of the reasons put forward for switching to Xfce was size on the
installation images; could you (and/or debian-cd) address this?
Specifically: 1) Would you want the default CD/DVD image to use a
GNOME even if GNOME was unable to fit on a single
On jeu., 2014-08-07 at 23:57 +0200, Jordi Mallach wrote:
Hi Debian,
About the decision itself, as Debian Xfce main maintainer, I honestly
don't really care. I don't think the default desktop matters that much
on Debian (while I guess it means a lot for Ubuntu, for example). I
actually think
On 08/08/14 00:29, Don Armstrong wrote:
On Thu, 07 Aug 2014, Jordi Mallach wrote:
Well, it's roughly that time. :) So I'd like to plainly request GNOME
is reinstated as the default desktop environment for a number of
reasons.
One of the reasons put forward for switching to Xfce was size on
On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 12:41:09AM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
Jordi Mallach wrote:
Downstream health
Upstream health
Community
Security
Privacy
Documentation
I don't think these are very useful criteria, unless they lead to
actual technical issues/benefits. Which can
On 08/08/2014 08:31, Michael Gilbert wrote:
Here's a really interesting view showing the downward trend starting
somewhere in April [0]. Note that the xfce trend was consistently
growing prior to and past January (when the default was changed), but
slowed a lot in April. At the same time,
Jens Schüßler dijo [Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 10:37:33AM +0200]:
...And I'd like us to consider this point as well: How important are
CD images nowadays? Who has a CD that cannot read a DVD?
You may visit some poorer people in the world.
But hey, if they want CD-bread, why don't they just eat
On Friday 08 August 2014 15:15:17 vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote:
Hi,
I'm not a Debian developer, just a Debian user, and I want to say that I
was happy to see XFCE being the default DE. Just because it's small,
classic and neutral DE - which GNOME 3 definitely isn't. I think XFCE is
a better
Quoting Gunnar Wolf (2014-08-08 15:00:35)
Jens Schüßler dijo [Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 10:37:33AM +0200]:
...And I'd like us to consider this point as well: How important are
CD images nowadays? Who has a CD that cannot read a DVD?
You may visit some poorer people in the world.
But hey, if
Quoting Olav Vitters (2014-08-08 15:51:13)
On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 03:26:20PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
I wonder if you still missed my point: Concern is not if computers
are capable of reading DVDs, but the *bandwith* burden of installing
and maintaining a larger desktop versus a
Jonas Smedegaard, le Fri 08 Aug 2014 16:11:58 +0200, a écrit :
The following is on a wheezy chroot:
root@bastian:/# aptitude install task-gnome-desktop
The following NEW packages will be installed:
[...]
Need to get 370 MB of archives. After unpacking 1099 MB will be used.
Gunnar Wolf writes (Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop):
And yes, many such computers are currently in use. And it would be a
disservice not to provide CDs anymore. But that criteria should not be
what guides our default for installation; a CD might not be able to
have
Quoting Samuel Thibault (2014-08-08 16:19:28)
Jonas Smedegaard, le Fri 08 Aug 2014 16:11:58 +0200, a écrit :
The following is on a wheezy chroot:
root@bastian:/# aptitude install task-gnome-desktop
The following NEW packages will be installed:
[...]
Need to get 370 MB of archives. After
On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 12:47:14PM +0100, David Goodenough wrote:
I would have thought it better to have a two level structure, where you are
asked for instance if you want a database, and if you select it you are
then asked which one (which can have a default for newbies). Similarly for
Hi,
I don't know if it's wise to include that by default, but I remember
that today, MATE is quite accessible. Not perfet, yes, but slight,
customizable, and with Compiz which can run on it with all its features.
Gnome is heavy for some machines and much less customizable in colours,
objects
On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 03:29:26PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
Specifically: 1) Would you want the default CD/DVD image to use a GNOME
even if GNOME was unable to fit on a single image? 2) Would the GNOME
team consider a less-complete DE for cases where image size is a
restriction?
How
Hi Debian,
It's been around 9 months since tasksel changed (for real) the default
desktop for new installs. At the time of the change, it was mentioned
the issue would be revisited before the freeze, around debconf time.
Well, it's roughly that time. :) So I'd like to plainly request GNOME is
Hi dd@.
(M-F-T was set so respecting it; but adding -boot@ anyway.)
Jordi Mallach jo...@debian.org (2014-08-07):
It's been around 9 months since tasksel changed (for real) the default
desktop for new installs. At the time of the change, it was mentioned
the issue would be revisited before the
On Thu, 07 Aug 2014, Jordi Mallach wrote:
Well, it's roughly that time. :) So I'd like to plainly request GNOME
is reinstated as the default desktop environment for a number of
reasons.
One of the reasons put forward for switching to Xfce was size on the
installation images; could you (and/or
I cannot make a full, fair comparison between desktop environments, as
I use none. I saw several people bark at GNOME 3, but most of them are
happy adopters nowadays, so, I don't believe that factor should carry
much weigh nowadays. Besides, as Jordi says, making end users re-learn
everything
Jordi Mallach wrote:
Accessibility
Hardware: GNOME 3.12 will be one of the few desktop environments to support
HiDPI displays, now very common on some laptop models. Lack of support for
HiDPI means non-technical users will get an unreadable desktop by default, and
no hints on how to fix
On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Joey Hess wrote:
Hardware: GNOME 3.12 will be one of the few desktop environments to support
HiDPI displays, now very common on some laptop models. Lack of support for
HiDPI means non-technical users will get an unreadable desktop by default,
and
no hints on
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