Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
Hi debian-devel (2022.07.16_09:12:16_+) > I guess we should expose this in our conference statistics. We care > about it. And in the future, we will: https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-team/public/websites/wafer-debconf/-/merge_requests/150 SR -- Stefano Rivera http://tumbleweed.org.za/ +1 415 683 3272
Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
Edward wrote: >Steve McIntyre wrote: >> >> Oh, not *another* package that tries to guess things from names. >> >> Do you have a real use for this package? There are a *lot* of issues >> in this area, and mis-gendering people is not something to risk >> lightly... > >I can add a warning to the package about problems guessing things from names, >or I'm happy to retract the ITP. At the very least I think a warning would be useful, yes. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "We're the technical experts. We were hired so that management could ignore our recommendations and tell us how to do our jobs." -- Mike Andrews
Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
Quoting Enrico Zini (2022-07-16 10:17:11) > On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 12:43:16PM +0100, Edward Betts wrote: > > > I've been writing some code to work out the gender balance of speakers at a > > conference. It parses the pentabarf XML of the schedule and feeds the > > speaker > > names to this module. > > > > Here's the results for Debconf 22. > > > > 72 speakers > > > > male 48 66.7% > > unknown 16 22.2% > > female 45.6% > > mostly_male22.8% > > andy 11.4% > > mostly_female 11.4% > > If the library works as the author intended, it will identify "Enrico" > as male, which is a gender *I* don't identify with. > > This kind of extends to anything related to a person's identity: any > software trying to determine an aspect of a person's identity is bound > to eventually conflict with how a person lives their own identity. > > That conflict can be quite painful, so it's not surprising you get > strong reactions when intending to package something that pretends to > tell people what a person is, without asking them first. > > This external determination of identity will then extend to the library > to any software or research using it. I totally understand the good > intentions, but the result honestly amplifies the pain. > > I think the right way to get the statistics you're looking for would be > to ask speakers to state their own identity on pentabarf, so that > statistics are based on self-determination, rather than external > overrides of it. I am not aware the the author or packager or any user of gender-guesser would *override* explicitly stated identity annotations. What makes sense to me is to apply a tool like gender-guesser *after* asking for explicit annotation and then apply guessing only when the speaker (or whoever was involved) answered "Don't care" (which I would find sensible to place as default answer). My point being that I see a use-case for this library that is respectful - am I missing something and the existance of such tool is *always* painful for some? (sure, it *can* be painful is used wrongly or sloppily, as is the case with any tool - so I think the more relevant question is if it *always* is painful for some). - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
Hi Enrico (2022.07.16_08:17:11_+) > I think the right way to get the statistics you're looking for would be > to ask speakers to state their own identity on pentabarf, so that > statistics are based on self-determination, rather than external > overrides of it. If you're asking about DebConf 22, we have that information: count | gender ---+-- 21 | Decline to State 56 | Male 2 | Non-Binary 9 | Female (4 rows) I guess we should expose this in our conference statistics. We care about it. If you want similar data for DebConfs since 16, we can get that, too. SR -- Stefano Rivera http://tumbleweed.org.za/ +1 415 683 3272
Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 12:43:16PM +0100, Edward Betts wrote: > I've been writing some code to work out the gender balance of speakers at a > conference. It parses the pentabarf XML of the schedule and feeds the speaker > names to this module. > > Here's the results for Debconf 22. > > 72 speakers > > male 48 66.7% > unknown 16 22.2% > female 45.6% > mostly_male22.8% > andy 11.4% > mostly_female 11.4% If the library works as the author intended, it will identify "Enrico" as male, which is a gender *I* don't identify with. This kind of extends to anything related to a person's identity: any software trying to determine an aspect of a person's identity is bound to eventually conflict with how a person lives their own identity. That conflict can be quite painful, so it's not surprising you get strong reactions when intending to package something that pretends to tell people what a person is, without asking them first. This external determination of identity will then extend to the library to any software or research using it. I totally understand the good intentions, but the result honestly amplifies the pain. I think the right way to get the statistics you're looking for would be to ask speakers to state their own identity on pentabarf, so that statistics are based on self-determination, rather than external overrides of it. Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/634F4BD1E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
Hi, what practical use, except for direct discriminatory attempts against non-binaries and probably even many cis people, does such a package have? -nik
Bug#1014908: ITP: gender-guesser -- Guess the gender from first name
On Thu, 2022-07-14 at 10:20 +0100, Edward Betts wrote: > Package: wnpp > Severity: wishlist > Owner: Edward Betts > X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-de...@lists.debian.org, debian-pyt...@lists.debian.org > > * Package name: gender-guesser > Version : 0.4.0 > Upstream Author : Israel Saeta Pérez > * URL : https://github.com/lead-ratings/gender-guesser > * License : GPL-3 & GFDL-1.2+ > Programming Lang: Python > Description : Guess the gender from first name [...] This is a horribly bad idea, what do you need it for? Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
