Bug#1032319: gnome-shell: Accessibility Regression: ctrl-alt-tab doesn't stay on top bar

[Simon McVittie]

On Tue, 07 Mar 2023 at 10:33:33 +, Simon McVittie wrote:
> Would it be helpful for your use pattern if GNOME Shell had a specific
> keyboard shortcut to open the system menu, bypassing the need to navigate
> to the top bar first? I'm honestly surprised that it doesn't already: that
> seems like an omission.

I've opened 
for this.

> > I'd like to push back on the idea that sloppy focus is required.

Upstream issues that could be related, all of which seem to be regressions
somewhere around version 42:

* https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/5146
* https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/5270
* https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/5377

5270 and 5377 seem like maybe closer (or at least more specific) matches
for your experience than 5146, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's a
common root cause for all of these.

Unfortunately, nobody who is in a position to fix these has been able to
reproduce any of them.

smcv

Bug#1032319: gnome-shell: Accessibility Regression: ctrl-alt-tab doesn't stay on top bar

[Simon McVittie]

Would it be helpful for your use pattern if GNOME Shell had a specific
keyboard shortcut to open the system menu, bypassing the need to navigate
to the top bar first? I'm honestly surprised that it doesn't already: that
seems like an omission.

One thing that might be helpful is that Super+V will open the notifications
panel (notifications and calendar), and from there you can navigate towards
the System menu with the right arrow key. Unfortunately the number of right
arrow key presses depends whether there are notifications in the panel.

Also, if there is at least one application window open, you can press
Super+F10 to open the application menu, and then the right arrow will
navigate towards the system menu; but that shortcut isn't available if
there are no windows open, making it less useful.

On Sun, 05 Mar 2023 at 08:40:32 -0700, Sam Hartman wrote:
> * Install task-gnome-desktop on top of  effectively debian:bookworm out
>   of docker (roughly debootstrap --varient=minbase)

GNOME isn't really designed to run in a Docker container, and Docker isn't
really designed to run desktop environments, so you might be making things
harder for yourself than they need to be.

> I'd like to push back on the idea that sloppy focus is required.

Are you using Wayland or Xorg?

I tried installing gnome-session, gdm3 and gnome-terminal plus
their Recommends into a virtual machine (to get a smaller version of
task-gnome-desktop without big applications), and couldn't reproduce this
in that environment without enabling sloppy focus: Ctrl+Alt+Tab to the
top bar stayed in the top bar. I also tried installing task-gnome-desktop
and couldn't reproduce this that way either.

As before, I can reproduce this in Wayland mode by enabling sloppy focus.

If I log in to "GNOME on Xorg" instead of the default GNOME session
(which is Wayland), I can't reproduce this at all, even with sloppy focus.

I think there might be some sort of strange focus behaviour for the
Activities button on the top bar: when I switch on sloppy focus and then
press Super+V, I can navigate left and right to all the other items on
the top bar, but when focus reaches the Activities button it gets stuck
and will not move away with further presses of the arrow keys. However,
I tried installing a Shell extension that removes the Activities button,
and that didn't help with the behaviour of gaining and then immediately
losing focus under Wayland with sloppy focus.

> * alt-f2 run gnome-terminal
> * Confirm I'm in the terminal

Current versions of GNOME are initially in Overview mode after login,
and Alt+F2, gnome-terminal will run the terminal but stay in Overview
mode until you press Super. Just to check, are you taking that into
account, and going from Overview mode into normal window-management mode
before testing?

smcv

Bug#1032319: gnome-shell: Accessibility Regression: ctrl-alt-tab doesn't stay on top bar

[Sam Hartman]

> "Jeremy" == Jeremy Bícha  writes:

Jeremy> Open the GNOME Tweaks app.  Scroll down the left sidebar to
Jeremy> the panel named Windows.  In the main panel, scroll down to
Jeremy> the Window Focus section.  Click to Focus should be
Jeremy> selected.

Jeremy> I haven't spent much time trying to navigate the GNOME
Jeremy> Tweaks app with the keyboard and screen reader. It may not
Jeremy> be a great experience.

It's not great, but it's not horrible until you get to the end.
I can find the focus control, but I cannot figure out the current value.
I hit tab to where it should be and it simply announces "label."
I can however expand the options and use the orca review keys to select
click to focus with the orca mouse click.
I *assume* that probably makes things click to focus,
And I'm assuming that  the command Simon gave me should work.
But as I indicated in my signed response, even on a fresh install (which
presumably has the default focus), I can reproduce.

--Sam

Bug#1032319: gnome-shell: Accessibility Regression: ctrl-alt-tab doesn't stay on top bar

[Sam Hartman]

> "Simon" == Simon McVittie  writes:

Simon> On the upstream issue, a bug reporter mentions that to
Simon> reproduce the bug, you need two things: the focus mode needs
Simon> to be set to "sloppy focus", and there needs to be at least
Simon> one window open on the current workspace.

I'd like to push back on the idea that sloppy focus is required.

I tried the following:

* Install task-gnome-desktop on top of  effectively debian:bookworm out
  of docker (roughly debootstrap --varient=minbase)

* adduser --uid 8042 hartmans

* systemctl restart gdm

* At the console alt-super-s to enable orca and then log in

* alt-f2 run gnome-terminal

* Confirm I'm in the terminal

* ctrl-alt-tab to get to the top bar [fails to stay there]

I then confirmed that if I hit super  to get to overview panel and then
ctrl-alt-tab to the top it works.

I also confirmed your work around of going to an empty workspace; that
does work.
But I cannot verify the claim that sloppy focus is required.
I also tried resetting the focus preference you indicated and that did
not help.

--Sam


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Bug#1032319: gnome-shell: Accessibility Regression: ctrl-alt-tab doesn't stay on top bar

[Jeremy Bícha]

On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 4:33 PM Sam Hartman  wrote:
> Where can I find the focus mode in the GUI to confirm it is set correctly?

Open the GNOME Tweaks app.
Scroll down the left sidebar to the panel named Windows.
In the main panel, scroll down to the Window Focus section.
Click to Focus should be selected.

I haven't spent much time trying to navigate the GNOME Tweaks app with
the keyboard and screen reader. It may not be a great experience.

Thank you,
Jeremy Bícha

Bug#1032319: gnome-shell: Accessibility Regression: ctrl-alt-tab doesn't stay on top bar

[Sam Hartman]

> "Simon" == Simon McVittie  writes:
Simon> If click-to-focus is suitable for your workflow, the focus
Simon> mode can be reset to the default with this command:

Simon> gsettings reset org.gnome.desktop.wm.preferences focus-mode

I tried running that and can still reproduce the issue.
Do I need to do anything to make that take effect?  Where can I find the
focus mode in the GUI to confirm it is set correctly?

Bug#1032319: gnome-shell: Accessibility Regression: ctrl-alt-tab doesn't stay on top bar

[Simon McVittie]

Control: forwarded -1 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/5146

On Fri, 03 Mar 2023 at 13:41:43 -0700, Sam Hartman wrote:
> In bullseye I could hit ctrl-alt-tab to switch up to the top bar, and then 
> use shift-tab to get to the system menu and do things like turn on/off 
> networking.
> 
> On bookworm, that doesn't work.  ctrl-alt-tab does announce "top bar", but 
> when I release it, I'm dropped back into whatever application I was in.

This seems like upstream issue
, which was
apparently a regression in GNOME 42.

On the upstream issue, a bug reporter mentions that to reproduce the bug,
you need two things: the focus mode needs to be set to "sloppy focus", and
there needs to be at least one window open on the current workspace.

That suggests some workarounds: either set the focus mode to the default
click-to-focus, or use Ctrl + Alt + arrow keys to move to an empty
workspace. By default, GNOME Shell keeps one empty workspace available:
after the change from vertical to horizontal workspaces in GNOME 43, it's
the one on the right.

If click-to-focus is suitable for your workflow, the focus mode can be
reset to the default with this command:

gsettings reset org.gnome.desktop.wm.preferences focus-mode

(I don't know why this regressed, and upstream don't seem to have any
ideas either.)

smcv

Bug#1032319: gnome-shell: Accessibility Regression: ctrl-alt-tab doesn't stay on top bar

[Sam Hartman]

Package: gnome-shell
Version: 43.1-2
Severity: normal
Tags: a11y

I've also reproduced against 43.3-1, but it's harder to send email from that 
system.

I'm blind, running gnome on X using orca as a screen reader.
In bullseye I could hit ctrl-alt-tab to switch up to the top bar, and then use 
shift-tab to get to the system menu and do things like turn on/off networking.

On bookworm, that doesn't work.  ctrl-alt-tab does announce "top bar", but when 
I release it, I'm dropped back into whatever application I was in.
For example, I had Firefox focused, and hit ctrl-alt-tab.
I hear
" top bar"
"activities toggle button not pressed"
"Element [1] #debian-devel Mozilla firefox"
I.E. I was briefly on the top bar, but then found myself back in Firefox.

In Bullseye I would have stayed on the top bar.

I can get to the top bar, but it's involved.
I hit the windows key, to get to what is spoken as the "overview" screen.
I then hit ctrl-alt-tab until I get to the top bar, and it sticks.
That's a lot more keystrokes, and ends up being a fair bit slower.


-- System Information:
Debian Release: bookworm/sid
  APT prefers stable-security
  APT policy: (500, 'stable-security'), (500, 'testing'), (500, 'stable'), 
(200, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)

Kernel: Linux 6.0.0-2-amd64 (SMP w/8 CPU threads; PREEMPT)
Locale: LANG=en_US.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8), LANGUAGE not set
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /usr/bin/dash
Init: systemd (via /run/systemd/system)
LSM: AppArmor: enabled

Versions of packages gnome-shell depends on:
ii  dconf-gsettings-backend [gsettings-backend]  0.40.0-4
ii  gir1.2-accountsservice-1.0   22.08.8-1+b1
ii  gir1.2-adw-1 1.2.0-1
ii  gir1.2-atk-1.0   2.46.0-4
ii  gir1.2-atspi-2.0 2.46.0-4
ii  gir1.2-freedesktop   1.74.0-2
ii  gir1.2-gcr-3 3.41.1-1+b1
ii  gir1.2-gdesktopenums-3.0 43.0-1
ii  gir1.2-gdkpixbuf-2.0 2.42.10+dfsg-1
ii  gir1.2-gdm-1.0   43.0-1
ii  gir1.2-geoclue-2.0   2.6.0-2
ii  gir1.2-glib-2.0  1.74.0-2
ii  gir1.2-gnomebluetooth-3.042.5-1
ii  gir1.2-gnomedesktop-3.0  43-2
ii  gir1.2-graphene-1.0  1.10.8-1
ii  gir1.2-gstreamer-1.0 1.20.5-1
ii  gir1.2-gtk-3.0   3.24.36-1
ii  gir1.2-gtk-4.0   4.8.2+ds-4
ii  gir1.2-gweather-4.0  4.2.0-1
ii  gir1.2-ibus-1.0  1.5.27-4
ii  gir1.2-mutter-11 43.2-4
ii  gir1.2-nm-1.01.40.8-1
ii  gir1.2-nma-1.0   1.10.4-2
ii  gir1.2-pango-1.0 1.50.12+ds-1
ii  gir1.2-polkit-1.0122-1
ii  gir1.2-rsvg-2.0  2.54.5+dfsg-1
ii  gir1.2-soup-3.0  3.2.2-1
ii  gir1.2-upowerglib-1.00.99.20-2
ii  gir1.2-webkit2-4.1   2.38.3-1
ii  gnome-backgrounds43-1
ii  gnome-settings-daemon43.0-3
ii  gnome-shell-common   43.1-2
ii  gsettings-desktop-schemas43.0-1
ii  gstreamer1.0-pipewire0.3.63-4
ii  libatk-bridge2.0-0   2.46.0-4
ii  libatk1.0-0  2.46.0-4
ii  libc62.36-7
ii  libcairo21.16.0-7
ii  libecal-2.0-23.46.2-1
ii  libedataserver-1.2-273.46.2-1
ii  libgcr-base-3-1  3.41.1-1+b1
ii  libgdk-pixbuf-2.0-0  2.42.10+dfsg-1
ii  libgirepository-1.0-11.74.0-2
ii  libgjs0g 1.74.1-1
ii  libgles2 1.5.0-1
ii  libglib2.0-0 2.74.4-1
ii  libglib2.0-bin   2.74.4-1
ii  libgnome-autoar-0-0  0.4.3-1
ii  libgnome-desktop-3-2043-2
ii  libgraphene-1.0-01.10.8-1
ii  libgtk-3-0   3.24.36-1
ii  libgtk-4-1   4.8.2+ds-4
ii  libical3 3.0.16-1+b1
ii  libjson-glib-1.0-0   1.6.6-1
ii  libmutter-11-0   43.2-4
ii  libnm0   1.40.8-1
ii  libpango-1.0-0   1.50.12+ds-1
ii  libpangocairo-1.0-0  1.50.12+ds-1
ii  libpolkit-agent-1-0