Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 05:51:16PM +0100, Stephen Kell wrote: Is there any reason why Jan's suggested changes haven't been made? I too would be very happy to see them applied. Lameness of the maintainer. (Oops, that's me) I'm currently testing this. Cheers, Michael -- http://www.worldforge.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Is there any reason why Jan's suggested changes haven't been made? I too would be very happy to see them applied. Stephen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Erwan David wrote: Yasd that would make easier for me to explain that eclipse is a windows only thing If you choose to make yoursellf dependant on people who claim that microsoft waéy is the only way to use a computer,be logical and make windows only software. I can't beleive it! Now for the constructive thing: Michael, what do you think about tagging wontfix or closing the bug; Erwan, provide a patch to Eclipse upstream or to the Debian package to get rid of this 'evil' dependency and Michael will see if it's possible to apply your patch. 1° This is not a bug for me, Eclipse runs fine on Debian... and with free software; 2° Eclipse is a really important software to have in Debian and it takes a lot of time to package, we really don't need to spend time in such discussions; 3° I don't understand the comparaison between Windows and Gnome, anyway, I don't want you to explain your point of view. Erwan, many thanks to let Debian developers do their job and help us in a *constructive* maneer! Respect, - -- .''`. : :' :rnaud `. `' `- Java Trap: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDo+6T4vzFZu62tMIRAiZRAJ9rMRh2pmxdXtR6kKBVqVH/6hMRPQCfZm02 ATO4Qaz/hisYdRmQiCaEO8Y= =oZJg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 11:55:15AM +0100, Arnaud Vandyck wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Erwan David wrote: Yasd that would make easier for me to explain that eclipse is a windows only thing If you choose to make yoursellf dependant on people who claim that microsoft waéy is the only way to use a computer,be logical and make windows only software. I can't beleive it! Now for the constructive thing: Michael, what do you think about tagging wontfix or closing the bug; Erwan, provide a patch to Eclipse upstream or to the Debian package to get rid of this 'evil' dependency and Michael will see if it's possible to apply your patch. This bug is already closed. If there is a constructive patch which is not too hard to maintain and is not too intrusive to change Eclipse' behavior drastically I will apply it for sure. With a constructive argument or a patch this bug should be reopened. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Le Sat 17/12/2005, Arnaud Vandyck disait 1° This is not a bug for me, Eclipse runs fine on Debian... and with free software; For me the software is not really free if it is a prison for the user. Gnome is a bunch of ill-designed software whose only goal is to do as windows do. It is just what M. de Icaza says in all interviews, that everybody should use a computer the way windows does it. We then see software which use gtk, then impose all gnome, then arrive to imposing gnome so-called desktop. That's why I consider gnome as dangerou, thus my refusal to use it, and refusal to use it *from the start*. www.eclipse.org does not say eclipse depends on gnome, and eclipse works on linux without any gnome library, thus imposing a sound daemon, a corba idl etc is unneeded dependency *added* by the maintainers of package, thus the bug. I understood that for them gnome is the graal everybody should use, so I close this, and won't use eclipse on debian. I'll also stop support for eclipse on debian at work, and eclipse user will stay with windows, it is no use to make them try something else if they get the same shit at the end. And for me I'll look to other java IDE, but unix-users friendly, not made with the motto that the user is an idiot and the software knows better what he wants to do. -- Erwan
Bug#342341: [SPAM?]: Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Hi You, Michael Koch wrote: If there is a constructive patch which is not too hard to maintain and is not too intrusive to change Eclipse' behavior drastically I will apply it for sure. AFAIK, there is a easy patch to debian/rules: Just change one debhelper call to add the dependencies of one .so-file as a Recommends:. I had this in my 2.1 packaging: From http://www.linex.org/sources/linex/debian/dists/cl/eclipse-2.1/source/eclipse_2.1.3-4.diff.gz dpkg-shlibdeps -dDepends \ debian/libswt2.1-gtk2-jni/usr/lib/jni/libswt-gtk-2136.so debian/libswt2.1-gtk2-jni/usr/lib/jni/libswt-pi-gtk-2136.so \ -dSuggests \ debian/libswt2.1-gtk2-jni/usr/lib/eclipse/libswt-gnome-gtk-2136.so \ -Tdebian/libswt2.1-gtk2-jni.substvars dpkg-shlibdeps -dDepends \ debian/libswt2.1-motif-jni/usr/lib/jni/libswt-motif-2136.so \ -dSuggests \ debian/libswt2.1-motif-jni/usr/lib/eclipse/libswt-gnome-motif-2136.so \ debian/libswt2.1-motif-jni/usr/lib/eclipse/libswt-kde-motif-2136.so \ -Tdebian/libswt2.1-motif-jni.substvars dpkg-shlibdeps \ -dDepends debian/libeclipse-jni/usr/lib/eclipse/libcore_2_1_0a.so \ debian/libeclipse-jni/usr/lib/eclipse/libupdate.so \ -dSuggests debian/libeclipse-jni/usr/lib/eclipse/eclipse \ -Tdebian/libeclipse-jni.substvars From the light of this discussion, I would change Suggests: to Recommends:, which would let aptitude do the right thing in any case and I would add the Mozilla and whatever Deps to the sdk Package, so that apt-get install eclipse will also do the right thing. If you don't want mozilla, you will have to remove eclipse and install the RCP or JDT packages and get what you want. That way, in *most* cases, the right thing will happen and it will bepossible to remove the mozilla and gnome libs. Maybe that makes everybody happy :-) Jan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Le Fri 16/12/2005, Michael Koch disait On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 09:32:11AM +0100, Erwan David wrote: Le Wed 14/12/2005, Michael Koch disait I would like that you check the facts before writing such words. You are free not to use the Eclipse packaged by Debian but e.g. the Help system which is a vital system for some users will not work. Other thinks don't work either. Upstream Eclipse 3.1.1 don't works with free java runtimes at all because of broken memory management in JDT. It works perfectly without mozilla. It needs a browser but that's why every browser package has a Provides: www-browser, so the dependency should be on www-browser, not mozilla-browser. Not all packages providing www-browser export the needed shared library for the embedded browser in Eclipse, which is the default and preferred way in Eclipse upstream as Billy wrote. And that doies not explain th gnome dependency, which is heavier, and tottaly inadequate and, I repeat DANGEROUS. Eclipse doesn't depend on gnome, just on some libraries gnome provides. Many applications do this. That is neither heavy nor totally inadequate. Our goal is to make Eclipse ready-to-use after a simple 'apt-get install eclipse' No eclipse (the software) depends on *gtk* libs. Even eclipse.org does not cite gnome as a requirements. *YOU* impose gnome. To make this happen we have to depend on some stuff that may not be needed but is needed in the default configuration of Eclipse. When you don't need this features, don't use them. It is definitely NOT DANGEROUS. Data loss would be DANGEROUS. Gnome IS a danger becaéuse its goal is to impose a tatlly inadequate way of using a computer to people who do not want it. Gnome is contrary to the freedom of the user. -- Erwan David
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 09:19:43AM +0100, Erwan David wrote: Le Fri 16/12/2005, Michael Koch disait On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 09:32:11AM +0100, Erwan David wrote: Le Wed 14/12/2005, Michael Koch disait I would like that you check the facts before writing such words. You are free not to use the Eclipse packaged by Debian but e.g. the Help system which is a vital system for some users will not work. Other thinks don't work either. Upstream Eclipse 3.1.1 don't works with free java runtimes at all because of broken memory management in JDT. It works perfectly without mozilla. It needs a browser but that's why every browser package has a Provides: www-browser, so the dependency should be on www-browser, not mozilla-browser. Not all packages providing www-browser export the needed shared library for the embedded browser in Eclipse, which is the default and preferred way in Eclipse upstream as Billy wrote. And that doies not explain th gnome dependency, which is heavier, and tottaly inadequate and, I repeat DANGEROUS. Eclipse doesn't depend on gnome, just on some libraries gnome provides. Many applications do this. That is neither heavy nor totally inadequate. Our goal is to make Eclipse ready-to-use after a simple 'apt-get install eclipse' No eclipse (the software) depends on *gtk* libs. Even eclipse.org does not cite gnome as a requirements. *YOU* impose gnome. To make this happen we have to depend on some stuff that may not be needed but is needed in the default configuration of Eclipse. When you don't need this features, don't use them. It is definitely NOT DANGEROUS. Data loss would be DANGEROUS. Gnome IS a danger beca?use its goal is to impose a tatlly inadequate way of using a computer to people who do not want it. Gnome is contrary to the freedom of the user. OK. I've had enough of this, please. Since the technical side of the bug report has been excessively dealt with, I suggest closing it as not a bug, since we have an Eclipse developer's confirmation. As far as the non-technical side of the bug report goes, I'd suggest that Erwin takes that discussion somewhere else. We're building a universal operating system, and abusing the bug tracker for flamewars does not help. Thank you. cheers, dalibor topic -- Erwan David ___ pkg-java-maintainers mailing list pkg-java-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/pkg-java-maintainers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
OK. I've had enough of this, please. And do you think I'm not fed upo witrh people wanting to impose gnome to me ? Since the technical side of the bug report has been excessively dealt with, I suggest closing it as not a bug, since we have an Eclipse developer's confirmation. Yes tere is NO technical reason to impose gnome, just a policy reason, taht gnome must be imposed by all mean. As far as the non-technical side of the bug report goes, I'd suggest that Erwin takes that discussion somewhere else. We're building a universal operating system, and abusing the bug tracker for flamewars does not help. Thank you. Universal ? Bullshit. imposing uneeded dependency is *agauinst* universality. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On 16-Dec-05, at 3:19 AM, Erwan David wrote: No eclipse (the software) depends on *gtk* libs. Even eclipse.org does not cite gnome as a requirements. *YOU* impose gnome. Erwan, what part about my description of our use of GNOME is confusing? We use GNOME-VFS to implement the Program API. It's used to: - determine what your system web browser is - determine what application should launch if you open the system editor in eclipse - actually run these programs Without GNOME-VFS, the preferences dialog that lists web browsers won't list anything, nor will the listing of external applications for file associations, nor will the open with system editor work, and any applications that depend on the SWT Program API will not work properly. Do you want me to change the Eclipse Platform 3.2 plan on eclipse.org to more clearly state that we depend on gnome-vfs I can do this if it would help! -Billy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Le Fri 16/12/2005, Billy Biggs disait On 16-Dec-05, at 3:19 AM, Erwan David wrote: No eclipse (the software) depends on *gtk* libs. Even eclipse.org does not cite gnome as a requirements. *YOU* impose gnome. Erwan, what part about my description of our use of GNOME is confusing? We use GNOME-VFS to implement the Program API. It's used to: - determine what your system web browser is - determine what application should launch if you open the system editor in eclipse - actually run these programs Without GNOME-VFS, the preferences dialog that lists web browsers won't list anything, nor will the listing of external applications for file associations, nor will the open with system editor work, and any applications that depend on the SWT Program API will not work properly. Do you want me to change the Eclipse Platform 3.2 plan on eclipse.org to more clearly state that we depend on gnome-vfs I can do this if it would help! Yasd that would make easier for me to explain that eclipse is a windows only thing If you choose to make yoursellf dependant on people who claim that microsoft waéy is the only way to use a computer,be logical and make windows only software. -- Erwan David
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Hi, I don't want to add to the confusion, so I just reply to you. Feel to forward if you think my email is constructive enough to be considered ;-) On 16-Dec-05, at 3:19 AM, Erwan David wrote: We use GNOME-VFS to implement the Program API. It's used to: - determine what your system web browser is - determine what application should launch if you open the system editor in eclipse - actually run these programs Shouldn't the Debian way to determine web browser and system editor to use the default binaries 'sensible-browser' and 'sensible-editor'? I don't know if these binaries are policy or just a help, but perhaps, in deed, it would allow to remove some dependencies (which, I think, is always good, independent of all belief wars). Just my 2 cents, Eric -- Eric de France, d'Allemagne et de Navarre
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Le Wed 14/12/2005, Billy Biggs disait It needs Mozilla for the embedded browser, as it uses the Gecko embedding API. Erwan is correct that if this is not available, the help system will launch in an external web browser. However, this is a degredation of functionality. We would like all distributions to ship an embeddable mozilla, or the xulrunner Mozilla runtime. Ok, so the mozilla part is a bug in the mozilla packaging which does not separate the browser from the GtkMozEmbed library. It lets the gnome problem (which is the most annoying dependency). eclipse uses gtk, not gnome, its different. -- Erwan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 09:32:11AM +0100, Erwan David wrote: Le Wed 14/12/2005, Michael Koch disait I would like that you check the facts before writing such words. You are free not to use the Eclipse packaged by Debian but e.g. the Help system which is a vital system for some users will not work. Other thinks don't work either. Upstream Eclipse 3.1.1 don't works with free java runtimes at all because of broken memory management in JDT. It works perfectly without mozilla. It needs a browser but that's why every browser package has a Provides: www-browser, so the dependency should be on www-browser, not mozilla-browser. Not all packages providing www-browser export the needed shared library for the embedded browser in Eclipse, which is the default and preferred way in Eclipse upstream as Billy wrote. And that doies not explain th gnome dependency, which is heavier, and tottaly inadequate and, I repeat DANGEROUS. Eclipse doesn't depend on gnome, just on some libraries gnome provides. Many applications do this. That is neither heavy nor totally inadequate. Our goal is to make Eclipse ready-to-use after a simple 'apt-get install eclipse' To make this happen we have to depend on some stuff that may not be needed but is needed in the default configuration of Eclipse. When you don't need this features, don't use them. It is definitely NOT DANGEROUS. Data loss would be DANGEROUS. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Le Wed 14/12/2005, Michael Koch disait I would like that you check the facts before writing such words. You are free not to use the Eclipse packaged by Debian but e.g. the Help system which is a vital system for some users will not work. Other thinks don't work either. Upstream Eclipse 3.1.1 don't works with free java runtimes at all because of broken memory management in JDT. It works perfectly without mozilla. It needs a browser but that's why every browser package has a Provides: www-browser, so the dependency should be on www-browser, not mozilla-browser. And that doies not explain th gnome dependency, which is heavier, and tottaly inadequate and, I repeat DANGEROUS. -- Erwan David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Hi everyone. [Erwan, this mail is for the eclipse maintainers. I've kept you cc'ed to keep you in the discussion.] On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:32, Erwan David wrote: And that doies not explain th gnome dependency, which is heavier, and tottaly inadequate and, I repeat DANGEROUS. I have an eclipse.org binary release (3.1.1) unpacked in ~/bin/eclipse on my sarge install. A quick search shows that this includes private libraries. $ find /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/ |grep '\.so\.\|\.so$' /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/plugins/org.eclipse.cdt.core.linux.x86_3.0.0/os/linux/x86/libpty.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/plugins/org.eclipse.cdt.core.linux.x86_3.0.0/os/linux/x86/libspawner.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/33/1/.cp/libswt-pi-gtk-3139.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/33/1/.cp/libswt-gtk-3139.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/33/1/.cp/libswt-gnome-gtk-3139.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/83/1/.cp/os/linux/x86/libupdate.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/10/1/.cp/os/linux/x86/libcore_3_1_0.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/libcairo.so.1 (Obviously this is something that the debian eclipse packages don't do). A quick ldd shows that the private libraries upstream ships _are_ linked against gnome libs. ldd /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/33/1/.cp/libswt-gnome-gtk-3139.so| grep gnome libgnomevfs-2.so.0 = /usr/lib/libgnomevfs-2.so.0 (0x4001b000) libgnome-2.so.0 = /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0 (0x4007d000) libgnomeui-2.so.0 = /usr/lib/libgnomeui-2.so.0 (0x40092000) libgnomecanvas-2.so.0 = /usr/lib/libgnomecanvas-2.so.0 (0x4067b000) libgnome-keyring.so.0 = /usr/lib/libgnome-keyring.so.0 (0x40ac) a quick google search site:eclipse.org libgnome reveals 36 hits. The following 2 (at least) support the argument that the gnome libraries are (or at least were) used upstream. https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?format=multipleid=79268 http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/org.eclipse.swt/Eclipse%20SWT%20PI/motif/library/Attic/gnome.c?rev=1.11 However it ain't that simple. There has recently been a thread about unused library dependencies [1], [2]. The sarge ldd command does not have the -u option. Therefore I tried ldd -u on ubuntu. ldd -u /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/33/1/.cp/libswt-gnome-gtk-3139.so Unused direct dependencies: /usr/lib/libgnomevfs-2.so.0 /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0 /usr/lib/libgnomeui-2.so.0 At this point I'm out of my depth. I don't know how to determine whether (upstreams) libswt-gnome-gtk-3139.so actually _should_ be linked against gnome libs. Since I'm running sarge, it haven't tried ldd on the debian swt libs. I did try the following. 1. Rename /usr/lib/libgnomevfs-2.so.0, /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0, /usr/lib/libgnomeui-2.so.0. 2. Reboot. 3. kde apps all seem fine. gedit fails needing libgnomeui-2.so.0. eclipse seems fine. Confirmed basic open, edit, save functionality works. eclipse help also works (uses mozilla-firefox, but this is what /etc/alternatives/mozilla points to). I did not test any other functionality. Important eclipse functionality could easily be broken. Hence it seems that eclipse does not need gnome libs for basic functionality. The above test doesn't mean that other swt apps don't use functionality from gnome libs of course. Andrew V. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/11/msg00016.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/11/msg01427.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/11/msg01432.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On 14-Dec-05, at 3:32 AM, Erwan David wrote: I would like that you check the facts before writing such words. You are free not to use the Eclipse packaged by Debian but e.g. the Help system which is a vital system for some users will not work. Other thinks don't work either. Upstream Eclipse 3.1.1 don't works with free java runtimes at all because of broken memory management in JDT. It works perfectly without mozilla. It needs a browser but that's why every browser package has a Provides: www-browser, so the dependency should be on www-browser, not mozilla-browser. And that doies not explain th gnome dependency, which is heavier, and tottaly inadequate and, I repeat DANGEROUS. It needs Mozilla for the embedded browser, as it uses the Gecko embedding API. Erwan is correct that if this is not available, the help system will launch in an external web browser. However, this is a degredation of functionality. We would like all distributions to ship an embeddable mozilla, or the xulrunner Mozilla runtime. Erwan: do you understand what I am saying? -Billy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Andrew, you don't need to go to such incredible feats of sleuthing. :) I am an SWT developer and I think I already explained quite clearly in this bug report what dependencies are there and what are needed. I have an eclipse.org binary release (3.1.1) unpacked in ~/bin/ eclipse on my sarge install. A quick search shows that this includes private libraries. $ find /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/ |grep '\.so\.\|\.so$' /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/plugins/ org.eclipse.cdt.core.linux.x86_3.0.0/os/linux/x86/libpty.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/plugins/ org.eclipse.cdt.core.linux.x86_3.0.0/os/linux/x86/libspawner.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/ 33/1/.cp/libswt-pi-gtk-3139.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/ 33/1/.cp/libswt-gtk-3139.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/ 33/1/.cp/libswt-gnome-gtk-3139.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/ 83/1/.cp/os/linux/x86/libupdate.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/ 10/1/.cp/os/linux/x86/libcore_3_1_0.so /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/libcairo.so.1 (Obviously this is something that the debian eclipse packages don't do). What do you mean by that? All of these libraries, with the exception of libcairo.so.1, are JNI libraries which are part of Eclipse and the C sources are part of the source package, and are definitely installed by the Debian packages. libcairo.so.1 is a precompiled version of cairo as it is not in our supported distributions yet, so clearly this isn't required by the Debian packages yet. A quick ldd shows that the private libraries upstream ships _are_ linked against gnome libs. [...] However it ain't that simple. There has recently been a thread about unused library dependencies [1], [2]. The sarge ldd command does not have the -u option. Therefore I tried ldd -u on ubuntu. ldd -u /home/andrew/bin/eclipse/configuration/org.eclipse.osgi/bundles/ 33/1/.cp/libswt-gnome-gtk-3139.so Unused direct dependencies: /usr/lib/libgnomevfs-2.so.0 /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0 /usr/lib/libgnomeui-2.so.0 At this point I'm out of my depth. I don't know how to determine whether (upstreams) libswt-gnome-gtk-3139.so actually _should_ be linked against gnome libs. Since I'm running sarge, it haven't tried ldd on the debian swt libs. I think you're misreading the tools. Here's something clearer to do: $ nm -D libswt-gnome-* | grep gnome_vfs_mime_get_default_application You'll see that it depends on some gnome_vfs symbols. $ nm -D /usr/lib/libgnomevfs-2.so.0 | grep gnome_vfs_mime_get_default_ap You'll see that it's defined here. Now, as explained earlier, this is used by the Eclipse SDK to provide the feature where you go Open With System Editor and the file in Eclipse will open with gedit if that is what is set up in your GNOME preferences. The other feature is that this is also used to determine what your system web browser is, whether it's epiphany or Mozilla or konqueror or whatever. As you mention, other SWT applications may need more of this than the Eclipse SDK. This is true too with the embedded Mozilla. Many teams on the Eclipse project want to hard depend on the embedded browser, and lots of plugins definitely do. However, in the core SDK we've tried to ensure don't completely die if we can't find an embeddable Mozilla/Gecko install. -Billy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 11:36:29PM +0100, Erwan David wrote: Le Sat 10/12/2005, Michael Koch disait I agree with you, Stephan. Tagging it 'wontfix' is the best thing. Or just close it. We can either try to ship an Eclipse that works out of the box or a an Eclipse that needs much help from the admin to install additional stuff that Eclipse not depends on. I prefer to do the first as it helps more users then the second option hurts. When we 'fix' this bug and downgrade the Depends to Recommends or Suggests we will get bug reports from users complaining that Eclipse doesnt work out of the box. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/ So you want to oblige people to use the pile of crap that gnome is. MY freedom is also to NOT use software I think is ill designed and is a danger. You deny me this right. And you're a liar, I can download upstream eclipse without using mozilla (you oblige people to install obsolete sqoftware by the way..) nor gnome. I would like that you check the facts before writing such words. You are free not to use the Eclipse packaged by Debian but e.g. the Help system which is a vital system for some users will not work. Other thinks don't work either. Upstream Eclipse 3.1.1 don't works with free java runtimes at all because of broken memory management in JDT. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Hi I'm a debian user, not a debian developer, but I feel the need to chime in here. On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:36, Erwan David wrote: So you want to oblige people to use the pile of crap that gnome is. MY freedom is also to NOT use software I think is ill designed and is a danger. So don't use whatever you don't want. If you feel this strongly, and can't convince the maintainers to relax the dependencies, use equivs to create a fake package that provides gnome-mime-data, mozilla-browser etc. or download the debian source package, make whatever changes you need, and rebuild. or download the the debian packages and bypass dependencies by installing with dpkg -i --force-depends. (Be warned that package managers will try to fix the broken dependencies. Whilst fine for a quick and dirty short term trial, equivs is a better longterm solution. Using either method to mess with vital packages will cause breakage. or download eclipse from upstream and install to ~/bin or /usr/local . I'm currently running eclipse (downloaded from upstream, and unpacked into ~/bin) on ubuntu breezy. When I tried the pre-release ubuntu packages, I had issues installing eclipse-plugins, and reverted using the upstream binaries. This works fine and is easy to update. Indeed, unless you are familiar with tricks like equivs and dpkg -i --force-depends, I'd recommend running stable rather than testing/unstable, and installing eclipse (from upstream) either to ~/bin or /usr/local. You deny me this right. And you're a liar, I can download upstream eclipse without using mozilla (you oblige people to install obsolete sqoftware by the way..) nor gnome. Please moderate your language. Getting the dependencies eased requires convincing the package maintainers that eclipse and swt apps work fine without the gnome dependencies. That requires a constructive dialog. This is free software. You're not obliged to do anything. You can do whatever you like. You're free to ignore this email. You also free to try some of the suggestions I've listed above. No-one has denied you any rights. They have just tried to make sure that people who install the debian eclipse package, get a fully functional eclipse, without having to manually chase dependencies. (Debian policy requires this. It is a large part of what makes debian such a pleasure to use.) Imposing gnome for the mime stuff is either a lie or the proof of blatant incompetency. Mime is handled through the mailcap and mime.types definitions and the debian package to handle them is mime-support. I'm sure upstream will be happy to be called liars or incompetents. Much of the dependency 'bloat' comes from libswt3.1-gtk-java (the java side of SWT), which depends on mozilla _or_ mozilla-firefox, and libswt3.1-gtk-jni (the native side of the toolkit). libswt3.1-gtk-jni depends on (partial list) libcairo2 - The Cairo 2D vector graphics library libgnome2-0 - The GNOME 2 library - runtime files libgnomeui-0 - The GNOME 2 libraries (User Interface) - runtime files libgnomevfs2-0 - The GNOME virtual file-system library (runtime files) libgtk2.0-0 - The GTK+ graphical user interface library The gnome libs depend on ... (surprise) more gnome libs. Note that this is an SWT upstream design issue. SWT upstream choose to use the gtk library for native widgets. They also choose to use gnome libraries for some functionality. The eclipse file-open dialog is the same widget used by native gnome programs. This includes seemless access to cd-roms that gnome has automounted. As mentioned elsewhere, SWT uses mozilla or firefox for an embedded browser widget. PS: I was evaluating debian for the desktops at my work. I must now say that I cannot suggest it for the developers, we'll stick with other dsitributions which let people free to choose not to use some software. One of the strengths of debian is it package management. 99 times out of 100 installed package just work, without having to install extra packages to satisfy dependencies, or to allow normal functionality. The other 1% of the time, it is a RC bug. If the package maintainers drop needed dependencies, they'll just end up having to add them. from your initial bug report. Which means 195 MB on disk... Eclipse is big. The upstream download is 99.3 MB. My 'upstream install' (including cdt + subclipse) is 155 MB. This includes private versions of some of the libswt-gtk and libswt-gnome-gtk which are listed above. eclipse does not need gnome, so there is a dependency problem on this side. Same thing with mozilla-browser. In any case this makes the package uninstallable here (no gnome). It not really pulling in gnome (desktop), just some of the gtk/gnome libs. Other linux desktop distributions may simply include these some these libs (perhaps built without optional dependencies) as part of a standard install. Try searching for libgtk on your old system.
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On 12/7/05, Erwan David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: eclipse Severity: normal sudo apt-get -u install eclipse Password: Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done The following extra packages will be installed: dbus-1 dbus-glib-1 eclipse-jdt eclipse-jdt-common eclipse-pde eclipse-pde-common eclipse-platform eclipse-platform-common eclipse-rcp eclipse-rcp-common eclipse-source gconf2 gconf2-common gnome-keyring gnome-mime-data junit libbcel-java libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libcommons-beanutils-java libcommons-collections-java libcommons-collections3-java libcommons-dbcp-java libcommons-digester-java libcommons-el-java libcommons-fileupload-java libcommons-launcher-java libcommons-logging-java libcommons-modeler-java libcommons-pool-java libfam0c102 libgconf2-4 libgnome-keyring0 libgnome2-0 libgnome2-common libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0 libgnomevfs2-common libhal-storage0 libhal0 libjsch-java liblog4j1.2-java liblucene-java liblucene-java-doc libmx4j-java liborbit2 libregexp-java libscrollkeeper0 libservlet2.4-java libsmbclient libswt3.1-gtk-java libswt3.1-gtk-jni libtomcat5-java mozilla-browser scrollkeeper shared-mime-info zenity Which means 195 MB on disk... eclipse does not need gnome, so there is a dependency problem on this side. Same thing with mozilla-browser. The gnome libraries are needed for SWT, for example org.eclipse.swt.program.Program to get informations about the mine type and icons etc. for a given file. It seems that the SWT libraries handle the case if the gnome libs doesn't exist properly. But I don't think it's a good idea to remove the dependencies. Maybe a solution is to use recommendations instead. And the dependency to mozila-broser is needed for the SWT Browser widget. You should be able to use firefox instead, but nevertheless a browser is needed. In any case this makes the package uninstallable here (no gnome). Sad to hear, but to be honest if you can't spare 195 MB of diskspace then you won't have much fun with Eclipse. I tend to tag the report as WONTFIX, but wait on an opinion from Michael Koch.
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Le Sat 10/12/2005, Stephan Michels disait On 12/7/05, Erwan David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: eclipse Severity: normal sudo apt-get -u install eclipse Password: Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done The following extra packages will be installed: dbus-1 dbus-glib-1 eclipse-jdt eclipse-jdt-common eclipse-pde eclipse-pde-common eclipse-platform eclipse-platform-common eclipse-rcp eclipse-rcp-common eclipse-source gconf2 gconf2-common gnome-keyring gnome-mime-data junit libbcel-java libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libcommons-beanutils-java libcommons-collections-java libcommons-collections3-java libcommons-dbcp-java libcommons-digester-java libcommons-el-java libcommons-fileupload-java libcommons-launcher-java libcommons-logging-java libcommons-modeler-java libcommons-pool-java libfam0c102 libgconf2-4 libgnome-keyring0 libgnome2-0 libgnome2-common libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0 libgnomevfs2-common libhal-storage0 libhal0 libjsch-java liblog4j1.2-java liblucene-java liblucene-java-doc libmx4j-java liborbit2 libregexp-java libscrollkeeper0 libservlet2.4-java libsmbclient libswt3.1-gtk-java libswt3.1-gtk-jni libtomcat5-java mozilla-browser scrollkeeper shared-mime-info zenity Which means 195 MB on disk... eclipse does not need gnome, so there is a dependency problem on this side. Same thing with mozilla-browser. The gnome libraries are needed for SWT, for example org.eclipse.swt.program.Program to get informations about the mine type and icons etc. for a given file. False, eclipse and swt work perfectly without gnome. It seems that the SWT libraries handle the case if the gnome libs doesn't exist properly. But I don't think it's a good idea to remove the dependencies. Maybe a solution is to use recommendations instead. Is it a good idea to impose gnome to those who do not want it ? And the dependency to mozila-broser is needed for the SWT Browser widget. You should be able to use firefox instead, but nevertheless a browser is needed. eclipse works without a browser installed. You put restrictions on its use... In any case this makes the package uninstallable here (no gnome). Sad to hear, but to be honest if you can't spare 195 MB of diskspace then you won't have much fun with Eclipse. Its more a matter of policy : you as maintainer put arbitrary restrictions on the use of the software. I tend to tag the report as WONTFIX, but wait on an opinion from Michael Koch. Do debian policy allow maintainers to include dependencies which are not upstream ? I do not want to use gnome, f I follow you I should stop using debian ? -- Erwan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On 10-Dec-05, at 8:53 AM, Erwan David wrote: The gnome libraries are needed for SWT, for example org.eclipse.swt.program.Program to get informations about the mine type and icons etc. for a given file. False, eclipse and swt work perfectly without gnome. Hi Erwan, I'm an SWT developer. The Program library is so that in Eclipse, when you right click on a file and go Open With System Editor, it will open the same application that Nautilus would (.txt - gedit, or whatever). As well, .C files will show the right icon the same as nautilus. Of course Eclipse works fine without this capability, but the feature won't work, and other SWT applications may depend on being able to get these icons and runnables (imagine writing a file browser in SWT!). So, at some point the dependency must be stated or moved to be a Recommends:. And the dependency to mozila-broser is needed for the SWT Browser widget. You should be able to use firefox instead, but nevertheless a browser is needed. eclipse works without a browser installed. You put restrictions on its use... Eclipse uses an embedded browser in many places. The Help contents for example is an embedded Mozilla instance. If Mozilla is not found or not available, often there are fallbacks in Eclipse (you'll see some crappy white background with some icons instead of the full Intro), but some other Eclipse plugins _do_ depend on being able to embed mozilla. Consider the Eclipse web development plugins. Even the Javadoc view in Eclipse is an embedded Mozilla browser. Its more a matter of policy : you as maintainer put arbitrary restrictions on the use of the software. I tend to tag the report as WONTFIX, but wait on an opinion from Michael Koch. Do debian policy allow maintainers to include dependencies which are not upstream ? I do not want to use gnome, f I follow you I should stop using debian ? If we (Eclipse) could make these hard dependencies, I think we would. We have a horrible time trying to deal with distributions that don't provide GNOME or Mozilla embedding as part of the standard platform. Please consider how hard it is to ship software under Linux currently where we have to try and ensure we don't _completely_ die when Mozilla/GNOME aren't available. -Billy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 02:42:41PM +0100, Stephan Michels wrote: On 12/7/05, Erwan David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: eclipse Severity: normal sudo apt-get -u install eclipse Password: Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done The following extra packages will be installed: dbus-1 dbus-glib-1 eclipse-jdt eclipse-jdt-common eclipse-pde eclipse-pde-common eclipse-platform eclipse-platform-common eclipse-rcp eclipse-rcp-common eclipse-source gconf2 gconf2-common gnome-keyring gnome-mime-data junit libbcel-java libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libcommons-beanutils-java libcommons-collections-java libcommons-collections3-java libcommons-dbcp-java libcommons-digester-java libcommons-el-java libcommons-fileupload-java libcommons-launcher-java libcommons-logging-java libcommons-modeler-java libcommons-pool-java libfam0c102 libgconf2-4 libgnome-keyring0 libgnome2-0 libgnome2-common libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0 libgnomevfs2-common libhal-storage0 libhal0 libjsch-java liblog4j1.2-java liblucene-java liblucene-java-doc libmx4j-java liborbit2 libregexp-java libscrollkeeper0 libservlet2.4-java libsmbclient libswt3.1-gtk-java libswt3.1-gtk-jni libtomcat5-java mozilla-browser scrollkeeper shared-mime-info zenity Which means 195 MB on disk... eclipse does not need gnome, so there is a dependency problem on this side. Same thing with mozilla-browser. The gnome libraries are needed for SWT, for example org.eclipse.swt.program.Program to get informations about the mine type and icons etc. for a given file. It seems that the SWT libraries handle the case if the gnome libs doesn't exist properly. But I don't think it's a good idea to remove the dependencies. Maybe a solution is to use recommendations instead. And the dependency to mozila-broser is needed for the SWT Browser widget. You should be able to use firefox instead, but nevertheless a browser is needed. In any case this makes the package uninstallable here (no gnome). Sad to hear, but to be honest if you can't spare 195 MB of diskspace then you won't have much fun with Eclipse. I tend to tag the report as WONTFIX, but wait on an opinion from Michael Koch. I agree with you, Stephan. Tagging it 'wontfix' is the best thing. Or just close it. We can either try to ship an Eclipse that works out of the box or a an Eclipse that needs much help from the admin to install additional stuff that Eclipse not depends on. I prefer to do the first as it helps more users then the second option hurts. When we 'fix' this bug and downgrade the Depends to Recommends or Suggests we will get bug reports from users complaining that Eclipse doesnt work out of the box. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 02:53:13PM +0100, Erwan David wrote: Le Sat 10/12/2005, Stephan Michels disait On 12/7/05, Erwan David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: eclipse Severity: normal sudo apt-get -u install eclipse Password: Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done The following extra packages will be installed: dbus-1 dbus-glib-1 eclipse-jdt eclipse-jdt-common eclipse-pde eclipse-pde-common eclipse-platform eclipse-platform-common eclipse-rcp eclipse-rcp-common eclipse-source gconf2 gconf2-common gnome-keyring gnome-mime-data junit libbcel-java libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libcommons-beanutils-java libcommons-collections-java libcommons-collections3-java libcommons-dbcp-java libcommons-digester-java libcommons-el-java libcommons-fileupload-java libcommons-launcher-java libcommons-logging-java libcommons-modeler-java libcommons-pool-java libfam0c102 libgconf2-4 libgnome-keyring0 libgnome2-0 libgnome2-common libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0 libgnomevfs2-common libhal-storage0 libhal0 libjsch-java liblog4j1.2-java liblucene-java liblucene-java-doc libmx4j-java liborbit2 libregexp-java libscrollkeeper0 libservlet2.4-java libsmbclient libswt3.1-gtk-java libswt3.1-gtk-jni libtomcat5-java mozilla-browser scrollkeeper shared-mime-info zenity Which means 195 MB on disk... eclipse does not need gnome, so there is a dependency problem on this side. Same thing with mozilla-browser. The gnome libraries are needed for SWT, for example org.eclipse.swt.program.Program to get informations about the mine type and icons etc. for a given file. False, eclipse and swt work perfectly without gnome. It seems that the SWT libraries handle the case if the gnome libs doesn't exist properly. But I don't think it's a good idea to remove the dependencies. Maybe a solution is to use recommendations instead. Is it a good idea to impose gnome to those who do not want it ? And the dependency to mozila-broser is needed for the SWT Browser widget. You should be able to use firefox instead, but nevertheless a browser is needed. eclipse works without a browser installed. You put restrictions on its use... In any case this makes the package uninstallable here (no gnome). Sad to hear, but to be honest if you can't spare 195 MB of diskspace then you won't have much fun with Eclipse. Its more a matter of policy : you as maintainer put arbitrary restrictions on the use of the software. I tend to tag the report as WONTFIX, but wait on an opinion from Michael Koch. Do debian policy allow maintainers to include dependencies which are not upstream ? I do not want to use gnome, f I follow you I should stop using debian ? You are wrong. The dependencies ARE upstream too. With the stuff missing Eclipse is just crippled. A not working help system (because the web browser is missing) is a good example for a broken application. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Le Sat 10/12/2005, Michael Koch disait I agree with you, Stephan. Tagging it 'wontfix' is the best thing. Or just close it. We can either try to ship an Eclipse that works out of the box or a an Eclipse that needs much help from the admin to install additional stuff that Eclipse not depends on. I prefer to do the first as it helps more users then the second option hurts. When we 'fix' this bug and downgrade the Depends to Recommends or Suggests we will get bug reports from users complaining that Eclipse doesnt work out of the box. Cheers, Michael -- Escape the Java Trap with GNU Classpath! http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html Join the community at http://planet.classpath.org/ So you want to oblige people to use the pile of crap that gnome is. MY freedom is also to NOT use software I think is ill designed and is a danger. You deny me this right. And you're a liar, I can download upstream eclipse without using mozilla (you oblige people to install obsolete sqoftware by the way..) nor gnome. Imposing gnome for the mime stuff is either a lie or the proof of blatant incompetency. Mime is handled through the mailcap and mime.types definitions and the debian package to handle them is mime-support. PS: I was evaluating debian for the desktops at my work. I must now say that I cannot suggest it for the developers, we'll stick with other dsitributions which let people free to choose not to use some software. -- Erwan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#342341: eclipse: too many unneeded dependencies
Package: eclipse Severity: normal sudo apt-get -u install eclipse Password: Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done The following extra packages will be installed: dbus-1 dbus-glib-1 eclipse-jdt eclipse-jdt-common eclipse-pde eclipse-pde-common eclipse-platform eclipse-platform-common eclipse-rcp eclipse-rcp-common eclipse-source gconf2 gconf2-common gnome-keyring gnome-mime-data junit libbcel-java libbonobo2-0 libbonobo2-common libbonoboui2-0 libbonoboui2-common libcommons-beanutils-java libcommons-collections-java libcommons-collections3-java libcommons-dbcp-java libcommons-digester-java libcommons-el-java libcommons-fileupload-java libcommons-launcher-java libcommons-logging-java libcommons-modeler-java libcommons-pool-java libfam0c102 libgconf2-4 libgnome-keyring0 libgnome2-0 libgnome2-common libgnomecanvas2-0 libgnomecanvas2-common libgnomeui-0 libgnomeui-common libgnomevfs2-0 libgnomevfs2-common libhal-storage0 libhal0 libjsch-java liblog4j1.2-java liblucene-java liblucene-java-doc libmx4j-java liborbit2 libregexp-java libscrollkeeper0 libservlet2.4-java libsmbclient libswt3.1-gtk-java libswt3.1-gtk-jni libtomcat5-java mozilla-browser scrollkeeper shared-mime-info zenity Which means 195 MB on disk... eclipse does not need gnome, so there is a dependency problem on this side. Same thing with mozilla-browser. In any case this makes the package uninstallable here (no gnome). -- System Information: Debian Release: testing/unstable APT prefers testing APT policy: (990, 'testing'), (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'stable'), (1, 'experimental') Architecture: i386 (i686) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash Kernel: Linux 2.6.14-1-k7 Locale: LANG=C, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (charmap=ISO-8859-15) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
