Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
There has been such kind of suggestion last weeks but it has been ruled out. I guess that the rationale is mostly avoiding features that are only available in some D-I flavours. Ruled out ? Oh well. ... Which explains the rather harsh reply of this question only being 'noise'. Hey, Sven. Aren't you the one who very often insists on difficulties faces by non-English speakers ? :-) In the abve paragraph, what I intended to say is: Cette suggestion a déjà été fait dans les dernières semaines mais elle a pour l'instant été écartée car nou spréférons en général éviter les fonctionnalités disponibles seulement dans certaines versions de l'installateur. So, I translated écartée (which is, in French, a quite non rude word) by ruled outwhich is indeed the *only* English expression that comes to my mind o roughly express the same idea. It is very possible that rule out is stronger than my real intent (anyway, I'm not the one who ruled this out). So, please, don't put in my mouth the words you often seem to see in other people's mouth. What has been ruled out is a feature with a clock showing up in the corner of the G-I screen (indeed something similar to the extra games you discussed abut in January). So, if a method to set the clock is offerred, it has to work for all interfaces. Well, the .udeb could be common to everything, and the clock button could only be a shortcut to it. That would be an interesting feature, yes. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 09:01:39AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: There has been such kind of suggestion last weeks but it has been ruled out. I guess that the rationale is mostly avoiding features that are only available in some D-I flavours. Ruled out ? Oh well. ... Which explains the rather harsh reply of this question only being 'noise'. Hey, Sven. Aren't you the one who very often insists on difficulties faces by non-English speakers ? :-) I was refering to the rather harsh original reply from Geert. In the abve paragraph, what I intended to say is: Cette suggestion a déjà été fait dans les dernières semaines mais elle a pour l'instant été écartée car nou spréférons en général éviter les fonctionnalités disponibles seulement dans certaines versions de l'installateur. Yeah, but it has been my experience that the d-i leadership has some rather dogmatic approach to this kind of things, and ones something has been decided by the powers that be, even mentioning it is putting oneself as risk of becoming the target of a hate campaign, as i was over the kernel .udeb issue (altough i am also partly at fault, but only partly). So, I translated écartée (which is, in French, a quite non rude word) by ruled outwhich is indeed the *only* English expression that comes to my mind o roughly express the same idea. It is very possible that rule out is stronger than my real intent (anyway, I'm not the one who ruled this out). Indeed, i had no comment on what you said, but it shows clearly the futility of trying to propose or discuss ideas about it, since doing so will attire me the ire of frans and co, which i wanted to avoid in the first place. Too late now. So, please, don't put in my mouth the words you often seem to see in other people's mouth. What has been ruled out is a feature with a clock showing up in the corner of the G-I screen (indeed something similar to the extra games you discussed abut in January). Indeed. I do believe it is a small-minded ruling lacknig vision and temerity. I am bitter about this whole issue, and this may reflect and color my attitude over this, but since it has been ruled out, i will not insist further, because i know what it is going to cost me once frans is back. So, if a method to set the clock is offerred, it has to work for all interfaces. Well, the .udeb could be common to everything, and the clock button could only be a shortcut to it. That would be an interesting feature, yes. Indeed, but as you said, it has been ruled out, so anything coming from me will be seen as further defiance of the d-i team authority, let's not push this further, others may feel to develop these ideas more. Friendly, Sven Luther
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 09:10:27PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 04:57:17PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: I am not sure, but in the graphical installer, we could add a clock widget somewhere from the start, and do clock setting pretty early one (we probably only need hwclock and a little menu thingy), it can even be done before base-install and partman, since there are no extra dependencies. There has been such kind of suggestion last weeks but it has been ruled out. I guess that the rationale is mostly avoiding features that are only available in some D-I flavours. Personally, I find this a pity. I'd think that the graphical installer could benefit from some changes to improve usability, some of which would not make any sense in the textual interface. As an example, one place where I personally feel that the graphical version of the installer does not work very well, is in the partitioner; using different graphical paradigms to display the partitioning being in progress would most likely allow for a more usable interface. However, such an interface would need information that is not necessarily available in the text-based version of the installer. (No, I'm not willing to suggest how to do this, simply because I'm not a graphical guy; but the above is my opinion on the subject) Ruled out ? Oh well. ... Which explains the rather harsh reply of this question only being 'noise'. So, if a method to set the clock is offerred, it has to work for all interfaces. Well, the .udeb could be common to everything, and the clock button could only be a shortcut to it. ... with a main menu option to allow for invoking it from the text version, if there is interest. That being said, of course, it should be so that no important feature must ever be implemented that can only be accessed from one particular interface; as important, I would classify anything which cannot be enabled and/or fixed after the installation has been finished. Thus, I personally would not see any harm in having the ability to set the clock from the graphical installer, but not from the text-based one; of course, YMMV. -- Lo-lan-do Home is where you have to wash the dishes. -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 07:37:13AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote: On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 09:10:27PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 04:57:17PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: I am not sure, but in the graphical installer, we could add a clock widget somewhere from the start, and do clock setting pretty early one (we probably only need hwclock and a little menu thingy), it can even be done before base-install and partman, since there are no extra dependencies. There has been such kind of suggestion last weeks but it has been ruled out. I guess that the rationale is mostly avoiding features that are only available in some D-I flavours. Personally, I find this a pity. I'd think that the graphical installer could benefit from some changes to improve usability, some of which would not make any sense in the textual interface. As an example, one place where I personally feel that the graphical version of the installer does not work very well, is in the partitioner; using different graphical paradigms to display the partitioning being in progress would most likely allow for a more usable interface. However, such an interface would need information that is not necessarily available in the text-based version of the installer. (No, I'm not willing to suggest how to do this, simply because I'm not a graphical guy; but the above is my opinion on the subject) The work started by Xavier Oswald was to address just this, but sadly, we lost month in the no-C++ dogma war, and as a consequence, the resulting C reimplementation is naturally less mature than the original gparted we were wanting to use. The code is there though, in the parted alioth repository, for anyone to continue with Xavier's work, as a previous post was saying here. I still believe that going with the C++ gparted would have been more productive, since the upstream gparted maintainer is both active and cooperative. Again a case where too much conservatism in the d-i leadership and active oposition to newer ideas and experiments did stop what may have been. Ruled out ? Oh well. ... Which explains the rather harsh reply of this question only being 'noise'. So, if a method to set the clock is offerred, it has to work for all interfaces. Well, the .udeb could be common to everything, and the clock button could only be a shortcut to it. ... with a main menu option to allow for invoking it from the text version, if there is interest. Indeed, would be pretty enough, we just need to add a new set of graphic-only hooks or whatever to the package who can make use of it. That being said, of course, it should be so that no important feature must ever be implemented that can only be accessed from one particular interface; as important, I would classify anything which cannot be enabled and/or fixed after the installation has been finished. Thus, I personally would not see any harm in having the ability to set the clock from the graphical installer, but not from the text-based one; of course, YMMV. Well, once the rest of the stuff is there, adding the ability to set the clock from the text-based installer is trivial. A few debconf dialog boxes and that's it. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
Indeed. I do believe it is a small-minded ruling lacknig vision and temerity. I am bitter about this whole issue, and this may reflect and color my attitude over this, but since it has been ruled out, i will not insist further, because i know what it is going to cost me once frans is back. It has been écarté, put as low priority, not critical stuff.if someone comes up with a nice working patch, I see no reason for us to reconsider that question, whoever the patch come from. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
That information has no value ( it is noise ) It is not noise, it is very valuable information, because with it, you can immediately check that your clock is set correctly or not, and if it is set to UTC or not. Ideally, we could even have a clock setting dialog here or something. Yes, right. This is currently the answer to this please show current hour wishlist bug. We should *first* offer some way to set the clock before we display the current hour. So, indeed, what we need is someone working on a way to implement this (probably in clock-setup, of course). That would indeed be a very valuable stuff to add, especially for installing brand new machines where the HW clock is usually wrongly set when it is shipped by the manufacturer. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 09:33:26AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: That information has no value ( it is noise ) It is not noise, it is very valuable information, because with it, you can immediately check that your clock is set correctly or not, and if it is set to UTC or not. Ideally, we could even have a clock setting dialog here or something. Yes, right. This is currently the answer to this please show current hour wishlist bug. We should *first* offer some way to set the clock before we display the current hour. So, indeed, what we need is someone working on a way to implement this (probably in clock-setup, of course). That would indeed be a very valuable stuff to add, especially for installing brand new machines where the HW clock is usually wrongly set when it is shipped by the manufacturer. I am not sure, but in the graphical installer, we could add a clock widget somewhere from the start, and do clock setting pretty early one (we probably only need hwclock and a little menu thingy), it can even be done before base-install and partman, since there are no extra dependencies. The interest of doing it before the installation, is that it get rides of all those funny 'installation in the future' tar warnings. Not sure if they are interesting or not. The graphical version could be trigered by clicking on the menu at any time or something, this would be pretty cool. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
I am not sure, but in the graphical installer, we could add a clock widget somewhere from the start, and do clock setting pretty early one (we probably only need hwclock and a little menu thingy), it can even be done before base-install and partman, since there are no extra dependencies. There has been such kind of suggestion last weeks but it has been ruled out. I guess that the rationale is mostly avoiding features that are only available in some D-I flavours. So, if a method to set the clock is offerred, it has to work for all interfaces. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Aug 25, 2006, at 10:57 AM, Christian Perrier wrote: I am not sure, but in the graphical installer, we could add a clock widget somewhere from the start, and do clock setting pretty early one (we probably only need hwclock and a little menu thingy), it can even be done before base-install and partman, since there are no extra dependencies. There has been such kind of suggestion last weeks but it has been ruled out. I guess that the rationale is mostly avoiding features that are only available in some D-I flavours. So, if a method to set the clock is offerred, it has to work for all interfaces. In some cases it's not possible (e.g. no hardware clock.) In some cases it's possible but not desirable (e.g. hardware clock exists but is known to be wrong and porters have decided to ignore it during system initialization until access to an external clock is available.) But it seems a shame to ban a useful tool just because some people can't or won't use it... My two cents worth, Rick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 04:57:17PM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: I am not sure, but in the graphical installer, we could add a clock widget somewhere from the start, and do clock setting pretty early one (we probably only need hwclock and a little menu thingy), it can even be done before base-install and partman, since there are no extra dependencies. There has been such kind of suggestion last weeks but it has been ruled out. I guess that the rationale is mostly avoiding features that are only available in some D-I flavours. Ruled out ? Oh well. ... Which explains the rather harsh reply of this question only being 'noise'. So, if a method to set the clock is offerred, it has to work for all interfaces. Well, the .udeb could be common to everything, and the clock button could only be a shortcut to it. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
Rewording, in case this patch is accepted: System clocks are generally set to Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). The operating system uses your time zone to convert system time into - local time. This is recommended unless you also use another operating - system that expects the clock to be set to local time. + local time. This is recommended and default. This is the recommended behaviour (or behavior, whichever is the US spelling) + . + If this computer also runs another operating system that expects + the hardware clock to be set to local time, then change the default. You should change this setting only if this computer also runs another operating system that expects the hardware clock to be set to local time. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Thu, August 24, 2006 9:52, Christian Perrier said: You should change this setting only if this computer also runs another operating system that expects the hardware clock to be set to local time. Can we expect inexperienced users to know if their other OS want the hardware clock to be set to local time? Since most of those users would realistically be dual-booting with Windows, how about: You should change this setting only if this computer also runs another operating system that expects the hardware clock to be set to local time (e.g. all versions of Microsoft Windows). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
Quoting David Härdeman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On Thu, August 24, 2006 9:52, Christian Perrier said: You should change this setting only if this computer also runs another operating system that expects the hardware clock to be set to local time. Can we expect inexperienced users to know if their other OS want the hardware clock to be set to local time? Since most of those users would realistically be dual-booting with Windows, how about: You should change this setting only if this computer also runs another operating system that expects the hardware clock to be set to local time (e.g. all versions of Microsoft Windows). Please note that the UTC prompt will *not* be seen by inexperienced users who run installs at high priority (the default). While thinking about this BR, I was mostly sure that we indeed have something in D-I to NOT default to UTC for HW clock when there's a dual boot with Windows. But indeed, I find nothing in the code...and nothing in the BTS. The main problem here is that tzsetup is run before os-prober and thus, at the moment we run tzsetup (and actually ask this UTC question), we don't know whether Windows is installed or not. Joey, as main clock stuff maintainer, do you have an idea about this? signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:15:23AM +0200, David Härdeman wrote: Can we expect inexperienced users to know if their other OS want the hardware clock to be set to local time? Since most of those users would realistically be dual-booting with Windows, how about: You should change this setting only if this computer also runs another operating system that expects the hardware clock to be set to local time (e.g. all versions of Microsoft Windows). Debian-installer is also for hardware that never will nor never could run a Microsoft operating system. Referering to Microsoft doesn't make sense ( even spitting on Microsoft is wasted energy ). GSt
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Thu, August 24, 2006 12:41, Geert Stappers said: On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:15:23AM +0200, David Härdeman wrote: You should change this setting only if this computer also runs another operating system that expects the hardware clock to be set to local time (e.g. all versions of Microsoft Windows). Debian-installer is also for hardware that never will nor never could run a Microsoft operating system. I'm very well aware of that. Referering to Microsoft doesn't make sense Don't be silly, even though the information is irrelevant to e.g. a mips installation, it still makes sense for a large number of i386 installations. However, it seems that an even better solution would be to do something intelligent based on the results from os-prober as suggested by Christian. Regards, David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
Christian Perrier wrote: While thinking about this BR, I was mostly sure that we indeed have something in D-I to NOT default to UTC for HW clock when there's a dual boot with Windows. But indeed, I find nothing in the code...and nothing in the BTS. probed=$(os-prober) if echo $probed | os_needs_local_clock; then # default to localtime for some OSes db_set clock-setup/utc false pri=low fi .. in clock-setup's postinst. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
probed=$(os-prober) if echo $probed | os_needs_local_clock; then # default to localtime for some OSes db_set clock-setup/utc false pri=low fi .. in clock-setup's postinst. Hmmm, /me begins to think about finding a good optician Indeed, that question came as a side discussion in the original bug report which should probably be marked wontfix given Frans comment. Thanks for opening my eyes, Joey. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 02:19:46PM +0200, Geert Stappers wrote: On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:52:17PM -0300, Gleidson Echeli Leopoldo wrote: [ wishlist bugreport opened ] After Time-Zone option, it would be interesting to show the current hour where is ask for if the hardware clock is as UTC or not. That information has no value ( it is noise ) It is not noise, it is very valuable information, because with it, you can immediately check that your clock is set correctly or not, and if it is set to UTC or not. Ideally, we could even have a clock setting dialog here or something. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
tags 380105 + patch
thanks
This untested patch should solve this issue. I'm not sure where in
the template it is best to place the value, and hope someone else can
have a look before commit it.
* Display current system time when asking if it should use UTC or
not. (Closes: #380105)
Index: debian/clock-setup.postinst
===
--- debian/clock-setup.postinst (revisjon 40086)
+++ debian/clock-setup.postinst (arbeidskopi)
@@ -42,6 +42,7 @@
db_progress STEP 1
db_input $pri clock-setup/utc || true
+db_subst clock-setup/utc CURRENT_TIME `date`
if ! db_go; then
exit 10 # back to main menu
fi
Index: debian/clock-setup.templates
===
--- debian/clock-setup.templates(revisjon 40086)
+++ debian/clock-setup.templates(arbeidskopi)
@@ -8,6 +8,10 @@
Default: true
_Description: Is the system clock set to UTC?
System clocks are generally set to Coordinated Universal Time (UTC).
+ The current system time is now
+ .
+${CURRENT_TIME}
+ .
The operating system uses your time zone to convert system time into
local time. This is recommended unless you also use another operating
system that expects the clock to be set to local time.
--
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Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
This untested patch should solve this issue. I'm not sure where in
the template it is best to place the value, and hope someone else can
have a look before commit it.
* Display current system time when asking if it should use UTC or
not. (Closes: #380105)
It can be enhanced a little to avoid marking a string a translatable
while it contains only a variable. This will avoid many translators errors:
--- debian/clock-setup.templates(revisjon 40086)
+++ debian/clock-setup.templates(arbeidskopi)
@@ -8,6 +8,10 @@
Default: true
#flag:translate!:3
_Description: Is the system clock set to UTC?
System clocks are generally set to Coordinated Universal Time (UTC).
+ The current system time is now
+ .
+${CURRENT_TIME}
+ .
The operating system uses your time zone to convert system time into
local time. This is recommended unless you also use another operating
system that expects the clock to be set to local time.
This indeed uses a recent new feature of po-debconf which is *very*
convenient. See po-debconf(7) for details.
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Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Wednesday 23 August 2006 09:16, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: This untested patch should solve this issue. I'm not sure where in the template it is best to place the value, and hope someone else can have a look before commit it. This has been discussed a few times in the past and the decision has been that it is illogical to show the date/time while we cannot/don't offer a way to set the time during the installation. pgpUuGQ6YkAzR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:52:17PM -0300, Gleidson Echeli Leopoldo wrote: [ wishlist bugreport opened ] After Time-Zone option, it would be interesting to show the current hour where is ask for if the hardware clock is as UTC or not. That information has no value ( it is noise ) The question 'Is the system clock set to UTC?' is about what is _wanted_ during the use of the computer. I think that --- packages/clock-setup/debian/clock-setup.templates (revision 40174) +++ packages/clock-setup/debian/clock-setup.templates (working copy) @@ -9,8 +9,10 @@ _Description: Is the system clock set to UTC? System clocks are generally set to Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). The operating system uses your time zone to convert system time into - local time. This is recommended unless you also use another operating - system that expects the clock to be set to local time. + local time. This is recommended and default. + . + If this computer also runs another operating system that expects + the hardware clock to be set to local time, then change the default. Template: clock-setup/progress/title Type: text is an improvement. Cheers Geert Stappers signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#380105: Show current hour in hardware clock question
Package: installation Severity: wishlist Hi, today i installed Debian Etch amd64 through an netinst iso image. After Time-Zone option, it would be interesting to show the current hour where is ask for if the hardware clock is as UTC or not. Gleidson signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
