Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
Colin Watson cjwat...@debian.org writes: I think this is fine except that you missed a couple of bits: Thanks! I'm going ahead and merging this, with those fixes, for the next Policy release. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 07:41:40PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Colin Watson cjwat...@debian.org writes: I'd say: The Debian Social Contract simply refers to areas. ... to emphasise the fact (as it seems to me) that the SC is non-specific. I don't think we should feel tied to the SC's vague choice of words. I strongly suspect that (a) the authors were more interested in getting across the principle than in clear nomenclature, and (b) the specific term components in our archive maintenance software postdates the SC. Since this is technical policy, it seems reasonable to me that we would generally prefer more specific terms. Here's an updated patch that includes this change and some other rewordings and which changes distribution area to archive area, which I think is more accurate and less ambiguous (no confusion with the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, for example). How does this look? I think this is fine except that you missed a couple of bits: list compact=compact item emsection/em if the package is in the - emmain/em category, + emmain/em distribution area, - emmain/em category, + emmain/em archive area, /item item - emsegment/section/em if the package is in + emarea/section/em if the package is in the emcontrib/em or emnon-free/em distribution areas. - distribution areas. + archive areas. Seconded with those modifications. -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@debian.org] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
Colin Watson cjwat...@debian.org writes: I'd say: The Debian Social Contract simply refers to areas. ... to emphasise the fact (as it seems to me) that the SC is non-specific. I don't think we should feel tied to the SC's vague choice of words. I strongly suspect that (a) the authors were more interested in getting across the principle than in clear nomenclature, and (b) the specific term components in our archive maintenance software postdates the SC. Since this is technical policy, it seems reasonable to me that we would generally prefer more specific terms. Here's an updated patch that includes this change and some other rewordings and which changes distribution area to archive area, which I think is more accurate and less ambiguous (no confusion with the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, for example). How does this look? diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml index 36f51aa..5ecda02 100644 --- a/policy.sgml +++ b/policy.sgml @@ -318,8 +318,12 @@ system, but not every package we want to make accessible is emfree/em in our sense (see the Debian Free Software Guidelines, below), or may be imported/exported without - restrictions. Thus, the archive is split into the distribution - areas or categories based on their licenses and other restrictions. + restrictions. Thus, the archive is split into areasfootnote + The Debian archive software uses the term component internally + and in the Release file format to refer to the division of an + archive. The Debian Social Contract simply refers to areas. + This document uses terminology similar to the Social Contract. + /footnote based on their licenses and other restrictions. /p p @@ -336,12 +340,12 @@ /p p - The emmain/em category forms the - emDebian GNU/Linux distribution/em. + The emmain/em archive area forms the emDebian GNU/Linux + distribution/em. /p p - Packages in the other distribution areas (ttcontrib/tt, + Packages in the other archive areas (ttcontrib/tt, ttnon-free/tt) are not considered to be part of the Debian distribution, although we support their use and provide infrastructure for them (such as our bug-tracking system and @@ -448,10 +452,10 @@ /sect sect id=sections - headingCategories/heading + headingArchive areas/heading sect1 id=main - headingThe main category/heading + headingThe main archive area/heading p Every package in emmain/em must comply with the DFSG @@ -482,7 +486,7 @@ /sect1 sect1 id=contrib - headingThe contrib category/heading + headingThe contrib archive area/heading p Every package in emcontrib/em must comply with the DFSG. @@ -522,7 +526,7 @@ /sect1 sect1 id=non-free - headingThe non-free category/heading + headingThe non-free archive area/heading p Packages must be placed in emnon-free/em if they are @@ -638,25 +642,25 @@ headingSections/heading p - The packages in the categories emmain/em, - emcontrib/em and emnon-free/em are grouped further - into emsections/em to simplify handling. + The packages in the archive areas emmain/em, + emcontrib/em and emnon-free/em are grouped further into + emsections/em to simplify handling. /p p - The category and section for each package should be - specified in the package's ttSection/tt control record - (see ref id=f-Section). However, the maintainer of the - Debian archive may override this selection to ensure the - consistency of the Debian distribution. The - ttSection/tt field should be of the form: + The archive area and section for each package should be + specified in the package's ttSection/tt control record (see + ref id=f-Section). However, the maintainer of the Debian + archive may override this selection to ensure the consistency of + the Debian distribution. The ttSection/tt field should be + of the form: list compact=compact item emsection/em if the package is in the - emmain/em category, + emmain/em distribution area, /item item - emsegment/section/em if the package is in + emarea/section/em if the package is in the emcontrib/em or emnon-free/em distribution areas. /item @@ -9006,9 +9010,10 @@ install-info --quiet --remove /usr/share/info/foobar.info /p p - Packages in the emcontrib/em or emnon-free/em categories - should state in the copyright file that the package is not part - of
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
On Sun, Feb 01, 2009 at 10:23:38AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be writes: On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 03:37:37PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml index 24c9072..16919b2 100644 --- a/policy.sgml +++ b/policy.sgml @@ -293,7 +293,13 @@ emfree/em in our sense (see the Debian Free Software Guidelines, below), or may be imported/exported without restrictions. Thus, the archive is split into the distribution -areas or categories based on their licenses and other restrictions. +areas or componentsfootnote + The Debian archive software uses the term component internally + and in the Release file format to refer to the division of an + archive. The Debian Social Contract refers to distribution + areas. This document uses the same terminology as the Social + Contract. +/footnote based on their licenses and other restrictions. The SC has this in it: We have created contrib and non-free areas in our archive [...] The packages in these areas are [...] packages in these areas [...] There is no combination with distribution. True. I added that because I thought it made the construct clearer, but perhaps it doesn't. I suppose we could use archive area instead, which is closer to the wording of the SC. Does that sound like a better idea? Or I could keep distribution area and just change the wording of the footnote to be more accurate, say: The Debian Social Contract refers to areas. (just removing the distribution word there). I'm happy with either choice. I mostly just want to close this old bug. :) I'd say: The Debian Social Contract simply refers to areas. ... to emphasise the fact (as it seems to me) that the SC is non-specific. I don't think we should feel tied to the SC's vague choice of words. I strongly suspect that (a) the authors were more interested in getting across the principle than in clear nomenclature, and (b) the specific term components in our archive maintenance software postdates the SC. Since this is technical policy, it seems reasonable to me that we would generally prefer more specific terms. -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@debian.org] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009, Russ Allbery wrote: True. I added that because I thought it made the construct clearer, but perhaps it doesn't. I suppose we could use archive area instead, which is closer to the wording of the SC. Does that sound like a better idea? To me it sounds better but maybe it's only a question of getting used to the wording. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Le best-seller français mis à jour pour Debian Etch : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
Russ Allbery wrote: Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: I did a bit more research based on Osamu Aoki's excellent work. Currently, these things are referred to using three different terms: * dak calls them components. * The current Debian Policy document calls them categories. * The Social Contract calls them areas: (...) The above was written in July of last year. The only reaction that I got to this proposal is a comment from Giacomo that didn't object but suggested standardizing more of the terminology while we're at it. But I don't think there's been much progress on that front. As mentioned, I'm not sure we need to match the terminology in dak as long as we're not confusing about it. dak is referring to technical capabilities which are used to implement certain features. I still think distribution area is a good name for this, better than categories. However, there doesn't appear to be any consensus on this right now. So this is a ping to see if we do have consensus and people just haven't said, or if we don't. If we don't have consensus, my inclination is to close this bug and continue using categories, since I don't think anything else uses category in a confusing way. I don't want to just leave the bug open; it doesn't seem likely that anything fundamental is going to change about this bug report in the future. During last DebConf, I've done some further research, but unfortunately I paused it (and I forgot about it). I think that dak is inconsistent with the meaning of component. I see component and distribution area as two different entities: component is build from distribution area and eventually prepended with some name (source, distributuion), e.g. the security sub-distribution have as components (e.g. in http://security.debian.org/dists/etch/updates/Release ) : : Components: updates/main updates/contrib updates/non-free OTOH, sometime we uses (sources.list(5)): : deb uri distribution [component1] [component2] [...] but in this case updates is attached to distribution, thus here componentN should be really areaN. So I agree we your patch, with only one remark: Here's the proposed patch: diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml index 24c9072..16919b2 100644 --- a/policy.sgml +++ b/policy.sgml @@ -293,7 +293,13 @@ emfree/em in our sense (see the Debian Free Software Guidelines, below), or may be imported/exported without restrictions. Thus, the archive is split into the distribution - areas or categories based on their licenses and other restrictions. + areas or componentsfootnote + The Debian archive software uses the term component internally + and in the Release file format to refer to the division of an + archive. The Debian Social Contract refers to distribution + areas. This document uses the same terminology as the Social + Contract. + /footnote based on their licenses and other restrictions. /p I would replace with: + areasfootnote + The Debian archive software uses the term component internally + and in the Release file format to refer to the division of an + archive, which is usually the same as the distribution area. + /footnote based on their licenses and other restrictions. ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be writes: On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 03:37:37PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml index 24c9072..16919b2 100644 --- a/policy.sgml +++ b/policy.sgml @@ -293,7 +293,13 @@ emfree/em in our sense (see the Debian Free Software Guidelines, below), or may be imported/exported without restrictions. Thus, the archive is split into the distribution - areas or categories based on their licenses and other restrictions. + areas or componentsfootnote +The Debian archive software uses the term component internally +and in the Release file format to refer to the division of an +archive. The Debian Social Contract refers to distribution +areas. This document uses the same terminology as the Social +Contract. + /footnote based on their licenses and other restrictions. The SC has this in it: We have created contrib and non-free areas in our archive [...] The packages in these areas are [...] packages in these areas [...] There is no combination with distribution. True. I added that because I thought it made the construct clearer, but perhaps it doesn't. I suppose we could use archive area instead, which is closer to the wording of the SC. Does that sound like a better idea? Or I could keep distribution area and just change the wording of the footnote to be more accurate, say: The Debian Social Contract refers to areas. (just removing the distribution word there). I'm happy with either choice. I mostly just want to close this old bug. :) -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 03:37:37PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: I did a bit more research based on Osamu Aoki's excellent work. Currently, these things are referred to using three different terms: [...] As mentioned, I'm not sure we need to match the terminology in dak as long as we're not confusing about it. dak is referring to technical capabilities which are used to implement certain features. I still think distribution area is a good name for this, better than categories. [...] Here's the proposed patch: diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml index 24c9072..16919b2 100644 --- a/policy.sgml +++ b/policy.sgml @@ -293,7 +293,13 @@ emfree/em in our sense (see the Debian Free Software Guidelines, below), or may be imported/exported without restrictions. Thus, the archive is split into the distribution - areas or categories based on their licenses and other restrictions. + areas or componentsfootnote + The Debian archive software uses the term component internally + and in the Release file format to refer to the division of an + archive. The Debian Social Contract refers to distribution + areas. This document uses the same terminology as the Social + Contract. + /footnote based on their licenses and other restrictions. /p p @@ -310,8 +316,8 @@ /p p - The emmain/em category forms the - emDebian GNU/Linux distribution/em. + The emmain/em distribution area forms the emDebian GNU/Linux + distribution/em. /p p @@ -422,10 +428,10 @@ /sect sect id=sections - headingCategories/heading + headingDistribution areas/heading sect1 id=main - headingThe main category/heading + headingThe main distribution area/heading p Every package in emmain/em must comply with the DFSG @@ -456,7 +462,7 @@ /sect1 sect1 id=contrib - headingThe contrib category/heading + headingThe contrib distribution area/heading p Every package in emcontrib/em must comply with the DFSG. @@ -496,7 +502,7 @@ /sect1 sect1 id=non-free - headingThe non-free category/heading + headingThe non-free distribution area/heading p Packages must be placed in emnon-free/em if they are @@ -612,13 +618,13 @@ headingSections/heading p - The packages in the categories emmain/em, + The packages in the distribution areas emmain/em, emcontrib/em and emnon-free/em are grouped further into emsections/em to simplify handling. /p p - The category and section for each package should be + The distribution area and section for each package should be specified in the package's ttSection/tt control record (see ref id=f-Section). However, the maintainer of the Debian archive may override this selection to ensure the @@ -627,10 +633,10 @@ list compact=compact item emsection/em if the package is in the - emmain/em category, + emmain/em distribution area, /item item - emsegment/section/em if the package is in + emarea/section/em if the package is in the emcontrib/em or emnon-free/em distribution areas. /item @@ -8949,9 +8955,10 @@ install-info --quiet --remove /usr/share/info/foobar.info /p p - Packages in the emcontrib/em or emnon-free/em categories - should state in the copyright file that the package is not part - of the Debian GNU/Linux distribution and briefly explain why. + Packages in the emcontrib/em or emnon-free/em + distribution areas should state in the copyright file that the + package is not part of the Debian GNU/Linux distribution and + briefly explain why. /p p Seconded. Julian signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 03:37:37PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml index 24c9072..16919b2 100644 --- a/policy.sgml +++ b/policy.sgml @@ -293,7 +293,13 @@ emfree/em in our sense (see the Debian Free Software Guidelines, below), or may be imported/exported without restrictions. Thus, the archive is split into the distribution - areas or categories based on their licenses and other restrictions. + areas or componentsfootnote + The Debian archive software uses the term component internally + and in the Release file format to refer to the division of an + archive. The Debian Social Contract refers to distribution + areas. This document uses the same terminology as the Social + Contract. + /footnote based on their licenses and other restrictions. The SC has this in it: We have created contrib and non-free areas in our archive [...] The packages in these areas are [...] packages in these areas [...] There is no combination with distribution. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: I did a bit more research based on Osamu Aoki's excellent work. Currently, these things are referred to using three different terms: * dak calls them components. * The current Debian Policy document calls them categories. * The Social Contract calls them areas: We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of works that do not conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created contrib and non-free areas in our archive for these works. I think Policy should not attempt to make up its own terminology here, so I'd like to change it to match either dak or the Social Contract. After thinking about it for a bit, I favor going to the terminology of the Social Contract with a minor modification (distribution areas instead of just areas) in part because of Ian's point and in part because I think it's meaningful to suppose that component refers to a technical capability of dak whereas distribution area refers to a concept within Debian as a project. The above was written in July of last year. The only reaction that I got to this proposal is a comment from Giacomo that didn't object but suggested standardizing more of the terminology while we're at it. But I don't think there's been much progress on that front. As mentioned, I'm not sure we need to match the terminology in dak as long as we're not confusing about it. dak is referring to technical capabilities which are used to implement certain features. I still think distribution area is a good name for this, better than categories. However, there doesn't appear to be any consensus on this right now. So this is a ping to see if we do have consensus and people just haven't said, or if we don't. If we don't have consensus, my inclination is to close this bug and continue using categories, since I don't think anything else uses category in a confusing way. I don't want to just leave the bug open; it doesn't seem likely that anything fundamental is going to change about this bug report in the future. Here's the proposed patch: diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml index 24c9072..16919b2 100644 --- a/policy.sgml +++ b/policy.sgml @@ -293,7 +293,13 @@ emfree/em in our sense (see the Debian Free Software Guidelines, below), or may be imported/exported without restrictions. Thus, the archive is split into the distribution - areas or categories based on their licenses and other restrictions. + areas or componentsfootnote + The Debian archive software uses the term component internally + and in the Release file format to refer to the division of an + archive. The Debian Social Contract refers to distribution + areas. This document uses the same terminology as the Social + Contract. + /footnote based on their licenses and other restrictions. /p p @@ -310,8 +316,8 @@ /p p - The emmain/em category forms the - emDebian GNU/Linux distribution/em. + The emmain/em distribution area forms the emDebian GNU/Linux + distribution/em. /p p @@ -422,10 +428,10 @@ /sect sect id=sections - headingCategories/heading + headingDistribution areas/heading sect1 id=main - headingThe main category/heading + headingThe main distribution area/heading p Every package in emmain/em must comply with the DFSG @@ -456,7 +462,7 @@ /sect1 sect1 id=contrib - headingThe contrib category/heading + headingThe contrib distribution area/heading p Every package in emcontrib/em must comply with the DFSG. @@ -496,7 +502,7 @@ /sect1 sect1 id=non-free - headingThe non-free category/heading + headingThe non-free distribution area/heading p Packages must be placed in emnon-free/em if they are @@ -612,13 +618,13 @@ headingSections/heading p - The packages in the categories emmain/em, + The packages in the distribution areas emmain/em, emcontrib/em and emnon-free/em are grouped further into emsections/em to simplify handling. /p p - The category and section for each package should be + The distribution area and section for each package should be specified in the package's ttSection/tt control record (see ref id=f-Section). However, the maintainer of the Debian archive may override this selection to ensure the @@ -627,10 +633,10 @@ list compact=compact item emsection/em if the package is in the - emmain/em category, + emmain/em distribution area, /item item - emsegment/section/em if the package is in + emarea/section/em if the package is in
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009, Russ Allbery wrote: However, there doesn't appear to be any consensus on this right now. So this is a ping to see if we do have consensus and people just haven't said, or if we don't. If we don't have consensus, my inclination is to close this bug and continue using categories, since I don't think anything else uses category in a confusing way. I don't want to just leave the bug open; it doesn't seem likely that anything fundamental is going to change about this bug report in the future. I think silence mostly means I don't care in this particular case. At least I don't. I won't be upset by any choice you make. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Le best-seller français mis à jour pour Debian Etch : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
* Russ Allbery [Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:37:37 -0800]: I think Policy should not attempt to make up its own terminology here, so I'd like to change it to match either dak or the Social Contract. After thinking about it for a bit, I favor going to the terminology of the Social Contract with a minor modification (distribution areas instead of just areas) in part because of Ian's point and in part because I think it's meaningful to suppose that component refers to a technical capability of dak whereas distribution area refers to a concept within Debian as a project. The above was written in July of last year. The only reaction that I got to this proposal is a comment from Giacomo that didn't object but suggested standardizing more of the terminology while we're at it. But I don't think there's been much progress on that front. As mentioned, I'm not sure we need to match the terminology in dak as long as we're not confusing about it. dak is referring to technical capabilities which are used to implement certain features. I still think distribution area is a good name for this, better than categories. However, there doesn't appear to be any consensus on this right now. So this is a ping to see if we do have consensus and people just haven't said, or if we don't. If we don't have consensus, my inclination is to close this bug and continue using categories, since I don't think anything else uses category in a confusing way. I don't want to just leave the bug open; it doesn't seem likely that anything fundamental is going to change about this bug report in the future. Although I slightly favour component over area, I think your reasoning above is sound, and I'll happily take distribution area over category, particularly if the term component is mentioned in a footnote, as your patch does. Thanks, -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org Listening to: Pablo Milanés - Libertad -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#473439: pick consistent terminology for category/component/area
Note that things get a bit more complex if you consider debian-installer.
The control file for D-I packages has Section: debian-installer (or
{contrib,non-free}/debian-installer).
In the archive this translates to:
dists/suite/{main,contrib,non-free}/debian-installer/binary-arch
So in this special case the subsection translates to a separate physical
section in the archive (for the binary packages only!).
Cheers.
FJP
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