Bug#831726: Opinion on bug 831726 Very confusing prompt regarding administrative database passwords

[Iustin Pop]

On 2016-08-15 21:37:31, Justin B Rye wrote:
> Paul Gevers wrote:
> > Thanks, looks good to me.
> > 
> > But how about:
> > By default, these passwords are not stored, so you will be prompted for
> > them each time.
> >  ^
> 
> Good idea, I think we can afford the extra 11 bytes.

:)

Thanks all for the fast response on this, much appreciated.

iustin

Bug#831726: Opinion on bug 831726 Very confusing prompt regarding administrative database passwords

[Justin B Rye]

Paul Gevers wrote:
> Thanks, looks good to me.
> 
> But how about:
> By default, these passwords are not stored, so you will be prompted for
> them each time.
>  ^

Good idea, I think we can afford the extra 11 bytes.
-- 
JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package

Bug#831726: Opinion on bug 831726 Very confusing prompt regarding administrative database passwords

[Paul Gevers]

Hi Justin,

On 14-08-16 01:21, Justin B Rye wrote:



Thanks, looks good to me.

But how about:
By default, these passwords are not stored, so you will be prompted for
them each time.
 ^
(you configure, update or remove)... Even if the passwords were stored,
you would still be prompted the first time... The line isn't extremely
clear, but still feels better.

Paul



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Bug#831726: Opinion on bug 831726 Very confusing prompt regarding administrative database passwords

[Justin B Rye]

Paul Gevers wrote:
> Hi d-l10n-english,
> 
> I recently got the bug report against my package dbconfig-common (which
> you reviewed multiple times the last couple of years) below. What do you
> think, should we improve the template (as suggested)?
> 
> Paul
> PS: no need to reply to me directly, I read the bug.

(I'll Cc Iustin, though.  Revised version and patch attached.)
 
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:39:01 +0200 Iustin Pop  wrote:
>> I'm installing db-common for the first time, so I'm not familiar with
>> its configuration or even what is its purpose (installing as a
>> dependency).
>> 
>> During installation, I'm presented with a debconf prompt, which says:
>> 
(De-mangling the unicode ellipses:)
>> "By default [...] These passwords will be stored in debconf's
>> configuration database only for as long as they are needed.
>> 
>> This behavior can be disabled, in which case the passwords will remain
>> in the debconf database [...] though this is less secure and thus not the
>> default setting.".
>> 
>> Then the prompt follows: "Keep "administrative" database passwords?
>> Yes/No".
>> 
>> This is very confusing. The prompt talks about default setting vs.
>> non-default, but then follows with a 'yes/no'. Is yes the default? or
>> No?

It is true that it can take some effort to work out what the question
means.  Let's see: if the default is that the passwords will be kept
only briefly, and the question is whether they should be kept
(permanently) that means the default is a "no".

>> The prompt is also confusing as it asks about "keeping" the passwords,
>> but the initial explanation says that both options keep the password,
>> just for different amounts of time.

Actually the first paragraph already avoids the word "keep", perhaps
for this very reason, but the final prompt could certainly be clearer
about the fact that it means "permanently retained".
 
>> I would suggest asking "keep passwords in debconf (unsecure) yes/no" or
>> something similar.

Hang on, let me look at it without the ellipses.

# Template: dbconfig-common/remember-admin-pass

"Remember" might actually be a useful word.

# Type: boolean
# Default: false
# _Description: Keep "administrative" database passwords?

You know, I always forget that this synopsis turns up as the final
prompt line.  I'll come back to this.

# By default, you will be prompted for all administrator-level database
# passwords when you configure, upgrade, or remove applications with
# dbconfig-common. These passwords will be stored in debconf's configuration
# database only for as long as they are needed.

So by default I'll be prompted?  And it's asking me whether I want to
choose the nondefault option of *not* being prompted?  Oh, because if
it's remembered them I won't need to enter them again... but maybe it
would be clearer if it started with some context:
  
  When you configure, upgrade, or remove applications with dbconfig-common,
  administrator-level database passwords are needed. [...]

Now, if I was writing this in conversational English for native
speakers I'd expect the "only" in the next sentence to be differently
positioned:

   These passwords will only be stored in debconf's
  configuration database for as long as they are needed.

which gives clearer advance warning that it's focussing on a
*restriction* on the storage.  Unfortunately non-native-speakers often
find this placement of "only" illogical and confusing.

Wait, though; do we need to go into technical details about what
*isn't* being done?  Isn't that covered in the next paragraph where it
gives that option?  So we could simplify it down to:
  
  When you configure, upgrade, or remove applications with dbconfig-common,
  administrator-level database passwords are needed. By default, these
  passwords are not stored, so you will be prompted for them.

# .
# This behavior can be disabled, in which case the passwords will
# remain in the debconf database. This database is protected by Unix file
# permissions, though this is less secure and thus not the default
# setting.

The "behaviour" being the forgetting, not the storing; maybe that can
be avoided.  It's also a bit unclear to say that "this is [...] not
the default" when "this" seems at first glance to be talking about the
standard Unix permission system.  How about:

  Alternatively the passwords can be permanently remembered in the debconf
  database (which is protected by Unix file permissions), though this is 
  less secure and thus not the default setting.

# .
# If you would rather not be bothered for an administrative password
# every time you upgrade a database application with dbconfig-common,
# you should choose this option. Otherwise, you should refuse this
# option.

"If you're confident and/or lazy you should answer yes to accept the
nondefault option" (but we never quite say that because for a start
we don't know if the UI in use is the one that features a "Yes/No").

And then the prompt 

Bug#831726: Opinion on bug 831726 Very confusing prompt regarding administrative database passwords

[Paul Gevers]

Hi d-l10n-english,

I recently got the bug report against my package dbconfig-common (which
you reviewed multiple times the last couple of years) below. What do you
think, should we improve the template (as suggested)?

Paul
PS: no need to reply to me directly, I read the bug.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:39:01 +0200 Iustin Pop  wrote:
> I'm installing db-common for the first time, so I'm not familiar with
> its configuration or even what is its purpose (installing as a
> dependency).
> 
> During installation, I'm presented with a debconf prompt, which says:
> 
> "By default […] These passwords will be stored in debconf's
> configuration database only for as long as they are needed.
> 
> This behavior can be disabled, in which case the passwords will remain
> in the debconf database […] though this is less secure and thus not the
> default setting.".
> 
> Then the prompt follows: "Keep "administrative" database passwords?
> Yes/No".
> 
> This is very confusing. The prompt talks about default setting vs.
> non-default, but then follows with a 'yes/no'. Is yes the default? or
> No?
> 
> The prompt is also confusing as it asks about "keeping" the passwords,
> but the initial explanation says that both options keep the password,
> just for different amounts of time.
> 
> I would suggest asking "keep passwords in debconf (unsecure) yes/no" or
> something similar.




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Bug#831726: Very confusing prompt regarding administrative database passwords

[Iustin Pop]

Source: dbconfig-common
Severity: normal

Hi,

I'm installing db-common for the first time, so I'm not familiar with
its configuration or even what is its purpose (installing as a
dependency).

During installation, I'm presented with a debconf prompt, which says:

"By default […] These passwords will be stored in debconf's
configuration database only for as long as they are needed.

This behavior can be disabled, in which case the passwords will remain
in the debconf database […] though this is less secure and thus not the
default setting.".

Then the prompt follows: "Keep "administrative" database passwords?
Yes/No".

This is very confusing. The prompt talks about default setting vs.
non-default, but then follows with a 'yes/no'. Is yes the default? or
No?

The prompt is also confusing as it asks about "keeping" the passwords,
but the initial explanation says that both options keep the password,
just for different amounts of time.

I would suggest asking "keep passwords in debconf (unsecure) yes/no" or
something similar.

regards,
iustin


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