Bug#835533: dasher: Please package Dasher 5.0 beta
(Cc-ing ftpmaster, debian-devel) On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 07:05:09PM +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote: > (Cc-ing debian-a11y) > > Hi, Hi Emilio, > On 30/09/16 13:03, Andreas Henriksson wrote: > > While the patch would solve the RC bug and get dasher back into > > testing, I'm hesitant to assist in uploading it because the > > question "Do we *want* to ship dasher in it current state?" is > > not something your patch addresses. If we do get dasher back > > into testing we'll likely have to also support it for the > > lifetime of stretch. If we're struggling now to find people > > willing to invest any time into dasher maintenance how will > > we be able to make any guarantees about being able to support > > it for the lifetime of stretch? > > > > Until we have a somewhat enthusiastic maintainer it's probably > > better to make dasher available "on the side" rather than in > > the main distribution IMHO. Could you tell me your view on > > this and what your motivation for posting the patch was to better > > help me understand your situation? > > dasher is a critical piece of software for some people who couldn't use their > computer without it. Other than this FTBFS, I don't think it's in a bad state > (unless I missed something). So I'd say we should fix this bug and ship it, or > let the accessibility team (co-)maintain this (as they do with Orca) and give > us > a hand with it, if they want to do that. you are too late. Andreas did not apply my trivial patch to fix the RC bug.[1] Even though Andreas was worried about noone being available to maintain dasher,[2] he did not follow my suggestion to send a WNPP bug.[3] Andreas succeeded in getting dasher removed from Debian,[4] conveniently not mentioning that he could have fixed the "has not been part of testing" by applying my trivial fix. Andreas claiming "there's noone willing to commit to actually taking care of the package" in the removal request is also quite at odds with him being completely silent on my suggestion to file a WNPP bug. The ftp admins were fast enough to not give anyone a realistic chance to react to the removal request. It is a problem for users when software that is in one stable release disappears in the next stable release, and I guess dasher can forever serve as a good example of critical software having been removed from unstable without a single good reason. I am also personally unhappy that creating a patch for the RC bug triggered removal from unstable instead of getting the fix applied. > Cheers, > Emilio cu Adrian [1] https://bugs.debian.org/811640#24 [2] https://bugs.debian.org/835533#15 [3] https://bugs.debian.org/835533#25 [4] https://bugs.debian.org/839735 -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Bug#835533: dasher: Please package Dasher 5.0 beta
(Cc-ing debian-a11y) Hi, On 30/09/16 13:03, Andreas Henriksson wrote: > While the patch would solve the RC bug and get dasher back into > testing, I'm hesitant to assist in uploading it because the > question "Do we *want* to ship dasher in it current state?" is > not something your patch addresses. If we do get dasher back > into testing we'll likely have to also support it for the > lifetime of stretch. If we're struggling now to find people > willing to invest any time into dasher maintenance how will > we be able to make any guarantees about being able to support > it for the lifetime of stretch? > > Until we have a somewhat enthusiastic maintainer it's probably > better to make dasher available "on the side" rather than in > the main distribution IMHO. Could you tell me your view on > this and what your motivation for posting the patch was to better > help me understand your situation? dasher is a critical piece of software for some people who couldn't use their computer without it. Other than this FTBFS, I don't think it's in a bad state (unless I missed something). So I'd say we should fix this bug and ship it, or let the accessibility team (co-)maintain this (as they do with Orca) and give us a hand with it, if they want to do that. Cheers, Emilio
Bug#835533: dasher: Please package Dasher 5.0 beta
On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 04:34:44PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: >... > The available options for dasher are: > - apply my patch, giving users the latest non-beta release of dasher > with 3 (or 5 with LTS) years of security support in stretch > - not providing dasher in stretch > > I am not saying that either is a perfect solution. >... After sleeping a night over it, I realize that I missed an obvious solution for the non-maintainance issue you are worried about: Send an RFA or O bug against wnpp. You as maintainer stating in some random bug that you are not actually maintaining the package only hides the problem. Giving away packages you are not able to maintain makes it visible to everyone that a new maintainer is needed. cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Bug#835533: dasher: Please package Dasher 5.0 beta
On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 01:03:46PM +0200, Andreas Henriksson wrote: > Hello Adrian Bunk. > > On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 12:58:44AM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > > I just attached the trivial upstream fix for the FTBFS to the RC bug. > > Thanks for your patch. > > > This should be sufficient for getting dasher back into testing, > > I have no opinions whether 5.0-beta is better or worse than the > > current git snapshot. > > While the patch would solve the RC bug and get dasher back into > testing, I'm hesitant to assist in uploading it because the > question "Do we *want* to ship dasher in it current state?" is > not something your patch addresses. If we do get dasher back > into testing we'll likely have to also support it for the > lifetime of stretch. If we're struggling now to find people > willing to invest any time into dasher maintenance how will > we be able to make any guarantees about being able to support > it for the lifetime of stretch? What kind of guarantees are you talking about? What kind of support are you talking about? In practice the only "support" Debian provides for stable are CVE fixes. Section 5.5.1. of the Debian Developer's Reference does strongly discourage doing any other changes to packages in stable. If the security team does not veto providing security support for dasher in stable, then all maintenance that is allowed for dasher during the lifetime of stretch is guaranteed. > Until we have a somewhat enthusiastic maintainer it's probably > better to make dasher available "on the side" rather than in > the main distribution IMHO. Could you tell me your view on > this and what your motivation for posting the patch was to better > help me understand your situation? I am not using dasher myself, but a user stated in #835533 that he needs dasher. Derived distributions are special users, but the vast majority of users won't even have a chance to notice that dasher was removed before they upgrade when stretch is stable. Not shipping a package in the next stable that was in the previous stable without a good reason does needlessly create troubles for users. You have agreed that you will place the interests of users first in your priorities.[1] The available options for dasher are: - apply my patch, giving users the latest non-beta release of dasher with 3 (or 5 with LTS) years of security support in stretch - not providing dasher in stretch I am not saying that either is a perfect solution. But reality is that "latest upstream version and no RC bugs" is pretty much all you can expect on maintainance from an average Debian package. And this includes packages that you (co)maintain. As an example, if a user reports a normal bug against the version in stable of Evolution package that you co-maintain today, do you Andreas personally guarantee that this bug will be handled by you (or any other of the GNOME maintainers)? If you do not, you should either immediately send an RC bug against evolution to prevent releasing it in a stable [2], or stop setting unrealistic expectations for random other packages. > Regards, > Andreas Henriksson cu Adrian [1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract [2] The situation of evolution in jessie is actually much worse than the situation of dasher in jessie or stretch - I assume that you as maintainer are aware that one of the most security-critical parts of evolution is explicitely excluded from security support in jessie. -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Bug#835533: dasher: Please package Dasher 5.0 beta
Hello Adrian Bunk. On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 12:58:44AM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: > I just attached the trivial upstream fix for the FTBFS to the RC bug. Thanks for your patch. > > This should be sufficient for getting dasher back into testing, > I have no opinions whether 5.0-beta is better or worse than the > current git snapshot. While the patch would solve the RC bug and get dasher back into testing, I'm hesitant to assist in uploading it because the question "Do we *want* to ship dasher in it current state?" is not something your patch addresses. If we do get dasher back into testing we'll likely have to also support it for the lifetime of stretch. If we're struggling now to find people willing to invest any time into dasher maintenance how will we be able to make any guarantees about being able to support it for the lifetime of stretch? Until we have a somewhat enthusiastic maintainer it's probably better to make dasher available "on the side" rather than in the main distribution IMHO. Could you tell me your view on this and what your motivation for posting the patch was to better help me understand your situation? Regards, Andreas Henriksson
Bug#835533: dasher: Please package Dasher 5.0 beta
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 07:38:44PM +0200, intrig...@debian.org wrote: > Source: dasher > Severity: wishlist > > Hi! > > I've been looking at the state of dasher in Debian, since we are > shipping it in Tails 2.x (Jessie), but it's been removed from testing > so there are chances that it does not make it into Tails 3.x > (Stretch). > > I could find no Free Software alternative to dasher. > > Thankfully, upstream announced 5.0 beta a few months ago: > http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/WhatsNew.html > > This is great news: it means that the software is not abandoned > upstream, contrary to what I was starting to believe :) > > Perhaps it would fix the RC bug that got the package removed > from testing? I just attached the trivial upstream fix for the FTBFS to the RC bug. This should be sufficient for getting dasher back into testing, I have no opinions whether 5.0-beta is better or worse than the current git snapshot. > Cheers, cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
Bug#835533: dasher: Please package Dasher 5.0 beta
Source: dasher Severity: wishlist Hi! I've been looking at the state of dasher in Debian, since we are shipping it in Tails 2.x (Jessie), but it's been removed from testing so there are chances that it does not make it into Tails 3.x (Stretch). I could find no Free Software alternative to dasher. Thankfully, upstream announced 5.0 beta a few months ago: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/WhatsNew.html This is great news: it means that the software is not abandoned upstream, contrary to what I was starting to believe :) Perhaps it would fix the RC bug that got the package removed from testing? Cheers, -- intrigeri
