Bug#340298: www.debian.org/ports unclear about ia64
Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote: Package: www.debian.org Severity: important www.debian.org/ports says about ia64: This is a port to Intel's 64-bit architecture. Without further any warning/information about that other 64bit architecture intel, amd etc are producing: amd64. A *lot* of people try to use ia64 installation media to install Debian on their Opteron's etc, and then mail (for example) debian-cd that the cd is broken and doesn't boot. heh, if people can't figure that out, just how far do you expect them to get with Debian once they *do* get it installed? Look, I'm all for user-friendliness and idiot-proofing as much as the next guy but this is really pushing it. The paragraph in question could and IMHO should be more elaborate, like, saying it's Intel *alpha* 64, aka Itanium, and mention it's a high-end processor that's not available in consumer's computer shops at all, and also mention there exists another 64-bit processer made by Intel and others, that is *not* ia64, but rather 'amd64'. IMHO there are two sane options: - refer to architectures by their historical names, i.e. the first popular names for architectures: IA-32 is x86, amd64 is x86-64 (note that this is what AMD called it for the first few years of its life) and Itanium/IPF/whatver is IA-64. - refer to architectures by whatever companies currently call them; here you run into problems because the PR droids in these places are battling it out, so the names change once in a while and different companies give the same thing different names: Intel *today* call x86 IA-32 but AMD call it x86, however Intel call x86-64 EM64T (stupid, IMO) while AMD call it AMD64 (equally stupid, with an added element of desperation). (filed at important due to the huge amount of confusion this and maybe some other debian.org pages cause in this regard). If this is really causing such a huge amount of confusion, may I suggest the following: a great big NO CLUE? YOU WANT THIS ONE icon taking people to the x86 installer, and a little l337 hax0r/I actually know what that is under my desk icon taking people to all the others. my $0.02, Duraid -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#340298: www.debian.org/ports unclear about ia64
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:10:49PM +0900, Duraid Madina wrote: Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote: www.debian.org/ports says about ia64: This is a port to Intel's 64-bit architecture. Without further any warning/information about that other 64bit architecture intel, amd etc are producing: amd64. A *lot* of people try to use ia64 installation media to install Debian on their Opteron's etc, and then mail (for example) debian-cd that the cd is broken and doesn't boot. heh, if people can't figure that out, just how far do you expect them to get with Debian once they *do* get it installed? Look, I'm all for user-friendliness and idiot-proofing as much as the next guy but this is really pushing it. Whether users should know the difference or not, since they don't in practice, it's hurting both us and them not to clarify the situation. The paragraph in question could and IMHO should be more elaborate, like, saying it's Intel *alpha* 64, aka Itanium, and mention it's a high-end processor that's not available in consumer's computer shops at all, and also mention there exists another 64-bit processer made by Intel and others, that is *not* ia64, but rather 'amd64'. IMHO there are two sane options: - refer to architectures by their historical names, i.e. the first popular names for architectures: IA-32 is x86, amd64 is x86-64 (note that this is what AMD called it for the first few years of its life) and Itanium/IPF/whatver is IA-64. - refer to architectures by whatever companies currently call them; here you run into problems because the PR droids in these places are battling it out, so the names change once in a while and different companies give the same thing different names: Intel *today* call x86 IA-32 but AMD call it x86, however Intel call x86-64 EM64T (stupid, IMO) while AMD call it AMD64 (equally stupid, with an added element of desperation). Or, as Jeroen requests, provide an explanation that helps users who don't know or care what the architecture is called. (filed at important due to the huge amount of confusion this and maybe some other debian.org pages cause in this regard). If this is really causing such a huge amount of confusion, may I suggest the following: a great big NO CLUE? YOU WANT THIS ONE icon taking people to the x86 installer, and a little l337 hax0r/I actually know what that is under my desk icon taking people to all the others. I've empathize with your frustration with uninformed users, but we need to educate rather than insult them. -- Matt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#340298: www.debian.org/ports unclear about ia64
Without further any warning/information about that other 64bit architecture intel, amd etc are producing: amd64. A *lot* of people try to use ia64 installation media to install Debian on their Opteron's etc, and then mail (for example) debian-cd that the cd is broken and doesn't boot. I am not disputing that the wording can be improved, but please note: The paragraph in question could and IMHO should be more elaborate, like, saying it's Intel *alpha* 64, aka Itanium, What is Intel alpha 64? I've never heard of such a thing :-) ia64 != Itanium, just as Linux != RedHat. The fact that i386 is also called ia32 above, without any introduction to what ia32 means, isn't helping at all of course. If it doesn't serve anything, I strongly suggest to drop the name of 'ia-32', I've never heard of it before, while eh, I've been an i386 users for quite some time. Well, ia32 is a very common name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA-32 randolph -- Randolph Chung Debian GNU/Linux Developer, hppa/ia64 ports http://www.tausq.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#340298: www.debian.org/ports unclear about ia64
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 06:00:48PM +0800, Randolph Chung wrote: Without further any warning/information about that other 64bit architecture intel, amd etc are producing: amd64. A *lot* of people try to use ia64 installation media to install Debian on their Opteron's etc, and then mail (for example) debian-cd that the cd is broken and doesn't boot. I am not disputing that the wording can be improved, but please note: The paragraph in question could and IMHO should be more elaborate, like, saying it's Intel *alpha* 64, aka Itanium, What is Intel alpha 64? I've never heard of such a thing :-) ia64 != Itanium, just as Linux != RedHat. That's why I put debian-ia64 in the loop, because I don't much more than the bare minimum about the architecture in question. It also makes it hard for me to provide a factually correct patch. Please suggest some wording that *is* correct, then. I don't know how to do it. The fact that i386 is also called ia32 above, without any introduction to what ia32 means, isn't helping at all of course. If it doesn't serve anything, I strongly suggest to drop the name of 'ia-32', I've never heard of it before, while eh, I've been an i386 users for quite some time. Well, ia32 is a very common name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA-32 Among Computer Hardware Engineers, maybe, but I surely never heard of it (I know, statistical sample of one, but still. And I *am* thoroughly familiar with Linux). And a quick poll amongst a handful of computer-savy people (computer science students and physics students) at my university suggests I'm not the only one who doesn't know what a ia32 is, despite having lots of them (and the Physics department's main shell server being an ia64 even). --Jeroen -- Jeroen van Wolffelaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber MSN; ICQ: 33944357) http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#340298: www.debian.org/ports unclear about ia64
Package: www.debian.org Severity: important www.debian.org/ports says about ia64: This is a port to Intel's 64-bit architecture. Without further any warning/information about that other 64bit architecture intel, amd etc are producing: amd64. A *lot* of people try to use ia64 installation media to install Debian on their Opteron's etc, and then mail (for example) debian-cd that the cd is broken and doesn't boot. The paragraph in question could and IMHO should be more elaborate, like, saying it's Intel *alpha* 64, aka Itanium, and mention it's a high-end processor that's not available in consumer's computer shops at all, and also mention there exists another 64-bit processer made by Intel and others, that is *not* ia64, but rather 'amd64'. The fact that i386 is also called ia32 above, without any introduction to what ia32 means, isn't helping at all of course. If it doesn't serve anything, I strongly suggest to drop the name of 'ia-32', I've never heard of it before, while eh, I've been an i386 users for quite some time. Mentioning 'Pentium', 'Sempron' etc would seem more useful to me, as that's much more likely to be known to people than ia32 and even i386. Generally, having a bit of availability info in the summary so that people can more easily find which one's they need to look at. The m68k entry is a good example of this. I've X-Debbugs-Cc'd debian-ia64, who can maybe elaborate on this, or correct me where I've been wrong (I know very little about ia64 myself). (filed at important due to the huge amount of confusion this and maybe some other debian.org pages cause in this regard). Thanks, --Jeroen -- System Information: Debian Release: 3.1 Architecture: i386 (i686) Kernel: Linux 2.6.8-2-k7 Locale: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) -- Jeroen van Wolffelaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#340298: www.debian.org/ports unclear about ia64
On Tue, Nov 22, 2005 at 03:25:53PM +0100, Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote: www.debian.org/ports says about ia64: This is a port to Intel's 64-bit architecture. Without further any warning/information about that other 64bit architecture intel, amd etc are producing: amd64. A *lot* of people try to use ia64 installation media to install Debian on their Opteron's etc, and then mail (for example) debian-cd that the cd is broken and doesn't boot. The paragraph in question could and IMHO should be more elaborate, like, saying it's Intel *alpha* 64, aka Itanium, and mention it's a high-end processor that's not available in consumer's computer shops at all, and also mention there exists another 64-bit processer made by Intel and others, that is *not* ia64, but rather 'amd64'. The fact that i386 is also called ia32 above, without any introduction to what ia32 means, isn't helping at all of course. If it doesn't serve anything, I strongly suggest to drop the name of 'ia-32', I've never heard of it before, while eh, I've been an i386 users for quite some time. Mentioning 'Pentium', 'Sempron' etc would seem more useful to me, as that's much more likely to be known to people than ia32 and even i386. Generally, having a bit of availability info in the summary so that people can more easily find which one's they need to look at. The m68k entry is a good example of this. I've X-Debbugs-Cc'd debian-ia64, who can maybe elaborate on this, or correct me where I've been wrong (I know very little about ia64 myself). Would you please prepare a patch? -- Matt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
