Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Hi, Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org wrote: Defaulting to a graphical (gtk) frontend on i386 and amd64 would mean that it becomes the regular frontend, unless it is desired to credit the newt frontend with some special status. From a global point of view, the graphical frontend is still something special, an exceptional case, since it's only available on 2 archs out of 8 in Jessie. So I would leave the text installer on 'regular' status IMO. Well, amd64+i386 is probably close to almost all installations… Hmm, we should change regular installer - text installer then and don't use regular installer anymore, as proposed by Brian? Might lead to several changes and several outdated translations... I globally changed regular installer into text-based installer in the manual now. Holger -- Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Didier 'OdyX' Raboud o...@debian.org (2014-08-19): While I don't have a definitive opinion on the ordering of the menu choices, I definitively think amd64 should be picked by default on amd64 architectures. Especially since multiarch, there's no good reason left for installing i386 on amd64-capable machines AFAIK. OK, ta. Now, the ideal would be to use syslinux' ifcpu/ifcpu64 c32 modules to determine the menu order depending on the machine (see [0]): no 64 bit option on 32 bit machines, hidden or down the menu 32 bit option on 64 bit-capable machines. I'd be happy to iron out some proposals during DebConf, if that idea seems interesting. I didn't mention this because my mails contained too many questions already, but yes, it would be nice to have a conditional behaviour, depending on the detected architecture. Maybe automatic selection of the default architecture in the multi- arch image; and displaying a warning on i386 if an amd64 image was booted? Probably to be tracked in a separate, wishlist bug report to avoid conflating everything, even if the topics are quite close, I admit. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
On Mon 18 Aug 2014 at 23:07:11 +0200, Holger Wansing wrote: I have prepared a patch for this (attached) and I would like to receive some thoughts on it. I have added Samuel Thibault in CC, since he has also some knowledge and interest on the d-i manual. Basically I moved the chapter Appendix D.6. The Graphical Installer to 5.1.8 (at the end of Booting the installer on 32-bit PC), leaving the content unchanged. Defaulting to a graphical (gtk) frontend on i386 and amd64 would mean that it becomes the regular frontend, unless it is desired to credit the newt frontend with some special status. In the context of Section 5.3.2. there is a difference between the text and newt frontends. But for many users the distinction is lost and the present regular frontend as presented in the user interface is a text one. And I moved chapter Appendix D.6.1. Using the graphical installer to 6.1.1 (at the end of How the Installer Works), leaving the content mostly unchanged (only the first line differs). Section 6.1 uses character-based instead of text. It would be nice to have some consistency in referring to the alternative to the default graphical installation. For a normal installation, select either the quoteInstall/quote or the quoteGraphical install/quote entry mdash; using either the arrow keys on your keyboard or by typing the first (highlighted) letter, the -quoteInstall/quote entry is already selected by default mdash; and press +quoteGraphical install/quote entry is already selected by default mdash; and press enterkey; to boot the installer. I'd restructure that to draw attention to the default highlighting and to have it read better. For a normal installation, select either the “Install” or the “Graphical install” entry — using either the arrow keys on your keyboard or by typing the first (highlighted) letter — and press Enter to boot the installer. The entry Graphical install is already selected by default. +The graphical version of the installer is only available for a limited +number of architectures, including arch-title;. The functionality of +the graphical installer is essentially the same as that of the regular +installer as it basically uses the same programs, but with a different +frontend. Replace regular with text? +Although the functionality is identical, the graphical installer still has +a few significant advantages. The main advantage is that it supports more +languages, namely those that use a character set that cannot be displayed +with the regular quotenewt/quote frontend. It also has a few usability +advantages such as the option to use a mouse, and in some cases several +questions can be displayed on a single screen. Replace regular newt frontend with text installer? +Just as with the regular installer it is possible to add boot parameters +when starting the graphical installer. Replace regular with text? +If the amount of memory in your system is below minimum-memory;, +the graphical installer may fail to boot at all while booting the +regular installer would still work. Using the regular installer is +recommended for systems with little available memory. Replace both regulars with texts? +The graphical installer basically works the same as +the regular installer and thus the rest of this manual can be used to guide +you through the installation process. Replace regular with text? +To switch to another console, you will also need to use the +keycapCtrl/keycap key, just as with the X Window System. For example, +to switch to VT2 (the first debug shell) you would use: keycombo +keycapCtrl/keycap keycapLeft Alt/keycap keycapF2/keycap +/keycombo. The graphical installer itself runs on VT5, so you can use +keycombo keycapLeft Alt/keycap keycapF5/keycap /keycombo +to switch back. I'm unsure whether a reference to the X Window System is useful, even for those who know what it is. In Section 6,1 the paragraph beginning For this architecture the would need the default user interface and the link altering. There are also a few other links in the manual to Sections D.6. and D.6.1.. In Section 5.3.2. should the default frontend reference become gtk? Regards, Brian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Hi, Brian Potkin claremont...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon 18 Aug 2014 at 23:07:11 +0200, Holger Wansing wrote: I have prepared a patch for this (attached) and I would like to receive some thoughts on it. I have added Samuel Thibault in CC, since he has also some knowledge and interest on the d-i manual. Basically I moved the chapter Appendix D.6. The Graphical Installer to 5.1.8 (at the end of Booting the installer on 32-bit PC), leaving the content unchanged. Defaulting to a graphical (gtk) frontend on i386 and amd64 would mean that it becomes the regular frontend, unless it is desired to credit the newt frontend with some special status. From a global point of view, the graphical frontend is still something special, an exceptional case, since it's only available on 2 archs out of 8 in Jessie. So I would leave the text installer on 'regular' status IMO. In the context of Section 5.3.2. there is a difference between the text and newt frontends. But for many users the distinction is lost and the present regular frontend as presented in the user interface is a text one. And I moved chapter Appendix D.6.1. Using the graphical installer to 6.1.1 (at the end of How the Installer Works), leaving the content mostly unchanged (only the first line differs). Section 6.1 uses character-based instead of text. It would be nice to have some consistency in referring to the alternative to the default graphical installation. Ok, I could take that into account. But not in the first step. At first I want (where possible) to move the paragraphs around without changing the content, to avoid unnecessary work for translators. There will be further changings needed later IMO, though (when Cyril shakes the order of boot entries around, for example :-) ). For a normal installation, select either the quoteInstall/quote or the quoteGraphical install/quote entry mdash; using either the arrow keys on your keyboard or by typing the first (highlighted) letter, the -quoteInstall/quote entry is already selected by default mdash; and press +quoteGraphical install/quote entry is already selected by default mdash; and press enterkey; to boot the installer. I'd restructure that to draw attention to the default highlighting and to have it read better. For a normal installation, select either the “Install” or the “Graphical install” entry — using either the arrow keys on your keyboard or by typing the first (highlighted) letter — and press Enter to boot the installer. The entry Graphical install is already selected by default. Yes, that's sounds better. But I would implement that later on in a second step, see above. +The graphical version of the installer is only available for a limited +number of architectures, including arch-title;. The functionality of +the graphical installer is essentially the same as that of the regular +installer as it basically uses the same programs, but with a different +frontend. Replace regular with text? As stated above, I personally would leave it at regular. I'm unsure whether a reference to the X Window System is useful, even for those who know what it is. For users who have worked with Debian in the past already, it would not hurt to leave that hint in place. And novice users don't get irritated too much by this IMO. In Section 6,1 the paragraph beginning For this architecture the would need the default user interface and the link altering. There are also a few other links in the manual to Sections D.6. and D.6.1.. In Section 5.3.2. should the default frontend reference become gtk? Not for all archs, so that would at least have to be conditioned. Will look into it. Thanks! Holger -- Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
On Tue 19 Aug 2014 at 17:39:18 +0200, Holger Wansing wrote: Brian Potkin claremont...@gmail.com wrote: Defaulting to a graphical (gtk) frontend on i386 and amd64 would mean that it becomes the regular frontend, unless it is desired to credit the newt frontend with some special status. From a global point of view, the graphical frontend is still something special, an exceptional case, since it's only available on 2 archs out of 8 in Jessie. So I would leave the text installer on 'regular' status IMO. That thought went through my mind too but I discounted it because it seemed we were looking at i386 and amd64 documentation. If -user had a question about the regular/normal/usual/default user interface for Jessie I would say it is definitely the graphical one. However, since you are doing the work it is your call. :) (I wonder whether using Debian makes either of us regular guys?). I'm unsure whether a reference to the X Window System is useful, even for those who know what it is. For users who have worked with Debian in the past already, it would not hurt to leave that hint in place. And novice users don't get irritated too much by this IMO. It was an aside. I'm sure you are correct. Thank you for considering. Regards, Brian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org (2014-08-19): Hi, Brian Potkin claremont...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon 18 Aug 2014 at 23:07:11 +0200, Holger Wansing wrote: I have prepared a patch for this (attached) and I would like to receive some thoughts on it. I have added Samuel Thibault in CC, since he has also some knowledge and interest on the d-i manual. Basically I moved the chapter Appendix D.6. The Graphical Installer to 5.1.8 (at the end of Booting the installer on 32-bit PC), leaving the content unchanged. Defaulting to a graphical (gtk) frontend on i386 and amd64 would mean that it becomes the regular frontend, unless it is desired to credit the newt frontend with some special status. From a global point of view, the graphical frontend is still something special, an exceptional case, since it's only available on 2 archs out of 8 in Jessie. So I would leave the text installer on 'regular' status IMO. Well, amd64+i386 is probably close to almost all installations… Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Hi, Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org wrote: Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org (2014-08-19): Hi, Brian Potkin claremont...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon 18 Aug 2014 at 23:07:11 +0200, Holger Wansing wrote: I have prepared a patch for this (attached) and I would like to receive some thoughts on it. I have added Samuel Thibault in CC, since he has also some knowledge and interest on the d-i manual. Basically I moved the chapter Appendix D.6. The Graphical Installer to 5.1.8 (at the end of Booting the installer on 32-bit PC), leaving the content unchanged. Defaulting to a graphical (gtk) frontend on i386 and amd64 would mean that it becomes the regular frontend, unless it is desired to credit the newt frontend with some special status. From a global point of view, the graphical frontend is still something special, an exceptional case, since it's only available on 2 archs out of 8 in Jessie. So I would leave the text installer on 'regular' status IMO. Well, amd64+i386 is probably close to almost all installations… Hmm, we should change regular installer - text installer then and don't use regular installer anymore, as proposed by Brian? Might lead to several changes and several outdated translations... Holger -- Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 01:17:02AM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: [ Adding -accessibility@ and -cd@ to the loop. ] Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com (2014-08-17): On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 01:25:28PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Control: tag -1 confirmed Another issue is that it requires much more memory, but that IMO is not a blocker. It does require careful documentation though. Holger's last reports reminded of this, which we finally didn't do for wheezy. Unless someone has an objection, I'll schedule this switch for the next d-i upload. Yay, definitely. We never did get round to this for Wheezy, so let's get it done now. On a related note: we have an amd64-i386 “multi-arch” netinst image. I'd be happy to take opinions on the following questions since that's the only image linked directly from www.debian.org, which leads some people to call it “_the_ default installation image”… Its boot menu reads right now (at least in Jessie Beta 1): Install 64 bit install Graphical install 64 bit graphical install Advanced options Help Install with speech synthesis 64 bit speech install FWIW, I'm tempted to modify it so that it becomes: Install Graphical install 64 bit install 64 bit graphical install Advanced options Help Install with speech synthesis 64 bit speech install This means swiching items #2 and #3, so that we have 32-bit and 64-bit entries together (which is what happens in the Advanced options sub-menu). Speech synthesis entries can be kept together separately (see below). = debian-boot/cd@: anyone against such a change? I'm more tempted to have: #if (amd64) via syslinux 64 bit Graphical install 64 bit Text install #endif 32 bit Graphical install 32 bit Text install Advanced options Help #if (amd64) via syslinux Install with speech synthesis (64 bit) #endif Install with speech synthesis (32 bit) or do we split things even more? That menu is already too long, and causes scrolling for people to see the lower options (if they realise such a thing is possible!). How about we split things up some more, assuming we can get the auto-detect to work: #if (amd64) via syslinux 64 bit Graphical install 64 bit Text install 32 bit install options Advanced options Help Install with speech synthesis (64 bit) #else 32 bit Graphical install 32 bit Text install Install with speech synthesis (32 bit) #endif It'll need some extra work to deal with different paths through for i386 and amd64 here, but meh. It's possibly worth separating them totally, and make sure each path is clear in terms of which arch. On the multi-arch CD and DVD, the deeper advanced options menus are a bit too spread I think, so splitting at the top level would be a good plan for simplicity maybe? The default is Install right now, which installs i386. The topic of this bug report is switching to Graphical install by default, but shouldn't we also promote amd64 by default while we're at it? This would mean having 64 bit graphical install as the default. = debian-boot/cd@: do we want amd64 by default? Definitely - see above! Since the menus can be confusing a bit, I'm also wondering whether we should be explicit about the non-64 bit items, and prefix them with 32 bit. = debian-boot/cd@: opinions? Definitely - see above! -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast. Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com (2014-08-19): or do we split things even more? That menu is already too long, and causes scrolling for people to see the lower options (if they realise such a thing is possible!). How about we split things up some more, assuming we can get the auto-detect to work: #if (amd64) via syslinux 64 bit Graphical install 64 bit Text install 32 bit install options Advanced options Help Install with speech synthesis (64 bit) #else 32 bit Graphical install 32 bit Text install Install with speech synthesis (32 bit) #endif That looks very nice (except the missing Advanced options in the #else part). It'll need some extra work to deal with different paths through for i386 and amd64 here, but meh. It's possibly worth separating them totally, and make sure each path is clear in terms of which arch. On the multi-arch CD and DVD, the deeper advanced options menus are a bit too spread I think, so splitting at the top level would be a good plan for simplicity maybe? Having the per-arch code to detangle the mess looks like a nice idea, thanks. That means Didier (or someone else) will have to get it to work as a first step. I'd prefer if we made the switch for all images at a single time (even if that happens through several commits), so that we only have a single documentation update. As Holger mentioned, it's going to have *some* impacts in various areas; I'd rather avoid too many steps if at all possible. (And of course: Thanks for your input.) Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 11:58:27PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com (2014-08-19): or do we split things even more? That menu is already too long, and causes scrolling for people to see the lower options (if they realise such a thing is possible!). How about we split things up some more, assuming we can get the auto-detect to work: #if (amd64) via syslinux 64 bit Graphical install 64 bit Text install 32 bit install options Advanced options Help Install with speech synthesis (64 bit) #else 32 bit Graphical install 32 bit Text install Install with speech synthesis (32 bit) #endif That looks very nice (except the missing Advanced options in the #else part). Doh, yes! It'll need some extra work to deal with different paths through for i386 and amd64 here, but meh. It's possibly worth separating them totally, and make sure each path is clear in terms of which arch. On the multi-arch CD and DVD, the deeper advanced options menus are a bit too spread I think, so splitting at the top level would be a good plan for simplicity maybe? Having the per-arch code to detangle the mess looks like a nice idea, thanks. That means Didier (or someone else) will have to get it to work as a first step. I'd prefer if we made the switch for all images at a single time (even if that happens through several commits), so that we only have a single documentation update. As Holger mentioned, it's going to have *some* impacts in various areas; I'd rather avoid too many steps if at all possible. Of course, Oh, and after I've thought about this a little more - I believe it will make the amd64 UEFI menus in grub slightly easier to make, as well. They're post-processed from the syslinux menus in debian-cd via a horrid perl script... -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com This dress doesn't reverse. -- Alden Spiess -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Hi, Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org wrote: Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org (2014-08-17): That would lead to more changes to the d-i manual IMO. Indeed, and since you were updating the manual already I thought it might make sense to batch everything together. At least: booting of the graphical installer is now only documented in an appendix. If Graphical install is the default, the info about it should be integrated into the regular boot-installer chapter. I could provide a first patch as a proposal, if wanted. I haven't taken the time to look at what's documented right now, but feel free to start updating the doc. As I see it, the needed modifications should only be about updating the menu entry getting selected by default, so that we move from text-mode install to graphical-mode install on amd64/i386 architectures. I have prepared a patch for this (attached) and I would like to receive some thoughts on it. I have added Samuel Thibault in CC, since he has also some knowledge and interest on the d-i manual. Basically I moved the chapter Appendix D.6. The Graphical Installer to 5.1.8 (at the end of Booting the installer on 32-bit PC), leaving the content unchanged. And I moved chapter Appendix D.6.1. Using the graphical installer to 6.1.1 (at the end of How the Installer Works), leaving the content mostly unchanged (only the first line differs). Holger -- Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org Index: en/boot-installer/x86.xml === --- en/boot-installer/x86.xml (Revision 69238) +++ en/boot-installer/x86.xml (Arbeitskopie) @@ -401,7 +401,7 @@ For a normal installation, select either the quoteInstall/quote or the quoteGraphical install/quote entry mdash; using either the arrow keys on your keyboard or by typing the first (highlighted) letter, the -quoteInstall/quote entry is already selected by default mdash; and press +quoteGraphical install/quote entry is already selected by default mdash; and press enterkey; to boot the installer. /parapara @@ -473,3 +473,83 @@ /para /sect2 + + sect2 condition=gtk id=graphical + titleThe Graphical Installer/title +para + +The graphical version of the installer is only available for a limited +number of architectures, including arch-title;. The functionality of +the graphical installer is essentially the same as that of the regular +installer as it basically uses the same programs, but with a different +frontend. + +/parapara + +Although the functionality is identical, the graphical installer still has +a few significant advantages. The main advantage is that it supports more +languages, namely those that use a character set that cannot be displayed +with the regular quotenewt/quote frontend. It also has a few usability +advantages such as the option to use a mouse, and in some cases several +questions can be displayed on a single screen. + +/parapara arch=any-x86 + +The graphical installer is available with all CD images and with the +hd-media installation method. To boot the graphical installer simply select +the relevant option from the boot menu. Expert and rescue mode for the +graphical installer can be selected from the quoteAdvanced options/quote +menu. The previously used boot methods userinputinstallgui/userinput, +userinputexpertgui/userinput and userinputrescuegui/userinput can +still be used from the boot prompt which is shown after selecting the +quoteHelp/quote option in the boot menu. + +/parapara arch=any-x86 + +There is also a graphical installer image that can be netbooted. And there +is a special quotemini/quote ISO imagefootnote id=gtk-miniiso + +para +The mini ISO image can be downloaded from a debian; mirror as described +in xref linkend=downloading-files/. +Look for filenamenetboot/gtk/mini.iso/filename. +/para + +/footnote, which is mainly useful for testing. + +/parapara arch=powerpc + +For arch-title;, currently only an experimental quotemini/quote ISO +image is availablefootnote id=gtk-miniiso + +para +The mini ISO image can be downloaded from a debian; mirror as described +in xref linkend=downloading-files/. +Look for filenamenetboot/gtk/mini.iso/filename. +/para + +/footnote. It should work on almost all PowerPC systems that have +an ATI graphical card, but is unlikely to work on other systems. + +/parapara + +Just as with the regular installer it is possible to add boot parameters +when starting the graphical installer. + +/para +notepara + +The graphical installer requires significantly more memory to run than +the regular installer: minimum-memory-gtk;. If insufficient memory is +available, it will automatically fall back to the regular +quotenewt/quote frontend. + +/parapara + +If the amount of memory in your system is below minimum-memory;, +the graphical installer may fail to boot at all while booting the +regular installer would still work. Using the regular installer is +recommended for systems with little available
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Hi Holger, and thanks for the proposed patch! Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org (2014-08-18): Index: en/boot-installer/x86.xml === --- en/boot-installer/x86.xml (Revision 69238) +++ en/boot-installer/x86.xml (Arbeitskopie) @@ -401,7 +401,7 @@ For a normal installation, select either the quoteInstall/quote or the quoteGraphical install/quote entry mdash; using either the arrow keys on your keyboard or by typing the first (highlighted) letter, the -quoteInstall/quote entry is already selected by default mdash; and press +quoteGraphical install/quote entry is already selected by default mdash; and press enterkey; to boot the installer. The x86 part is likely correct… at least I was considering defaulting to graphical on (Linux) amd64 and i386 only. From a quick look it seems we have a netboot-gtk target for: amd64 armel (kirkwood only) armhf hurd-i386 (not released, who cares) i386 kfreebsd-amd64 powerpc (both powerpc and powerpc64) Additionally we have a cdrom_gtk target for: amd64 hurd-i386 i386 kfreebsd-amd64 Now, hurd-i386 doesn't need caring about; kfreebsd-* architectures are looking quite badly already, so I won't change anything on those right now. I expect arm* people to tell us whether any change is needed for those, but since I see no menu anyway… This lefts us with powerpc which has no menu either. = This means amd64 + i386 only, unless I'm missing something? +/parapara arch=powerpc + +For arch-title;, currently only an experimental quotemini/quote ISO +image is availablefootnote id=gtk-miniiso + +para +The mini ISO image can be downloaded from a debian; mirror as described +in xref linkend=downloading-files/. +Look for filenamenetboot/gtk/mini.iso/filename. +/para + +/footnote. It should work on almost all PowerPC systems that have +an ATI graphical card, but is unlikely to work on other systems. = So no powerpc here I think. I'd have to check an actual installation image under emulation, maybe; but I'm a bit too lazy for this right now. Worst case we could ping debian-powerpc@ to make sure. +notepara + +The graphical installer requires significantly more memory to run than +the regular installer: minimum-memory-gtk;. If insufficient memory is +available, it will automatically fall back to the regular +quotenewt/quote frontend. + +/parapara + +If the amount of memory in your system is below minimum-memory;, +the graphical installer may fail to boot at all while booting the +regular installer would still work. Using the regular installer is +recommended for systems with little available memory. + +/para/note I'm not sure since I tend to use 1GB RAM every time, but I thought there was some fallback mechanism in place? This was just a cursory reading, but the rest looks fine. Hopefully you'll get some more review. At least Steve was interested in seeing this happen, and he's a native speaker as well. :-) Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Cyril Brulebois, le Mon 18 Aug 2014 23:36:03 +0200, a écrit : +notepara + +The graphical installer requires significantly more memory to run than +the regular installer: minimum-memory-gtk;. If insufficient memory is +available, it will automatically fall back to the regular +quotenewt/quote frontend. + +/parapara + +If the amount of memory in your system is below minimum-memory;, +the graphical installer may fail to boot at all while booting the +regular installer would still work. Using the regular installer is +recommended for systems with little available memory. + +/para/note I'm not sure since I tend to use 1GB RAM every time, but I thought there was some fallback mechanism in place? There is, but atm with 128MiB RAM it doesn't even boot, just because the initrd is so big that we don't even get to boot to the point of the fallback script. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Helloo, Holger Wansing, le Mon 18 Aug 2014 23:07:11 +0200, a écrit : Basically I moved the chapter Appendix D.6. The Graphical Installer to 5.1.8 (at the end of Booting the installer on 32-bit PC), leaving the content unchanged. And I moved chapter Appendix D.6.1. Using the graphical installer to 6.1.1 (at the end of How the Installer Works), leaving the content mostly unchanged (only the first line differs). That seems sensible indeed. It would be very convenient, whenever you commit this, to actually remove the old text, so it's really a move :) Also, please do the same move in all the .xml translations, so that translators don't have to do anything about it. The po translations shouldn't need any change. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org (2014-08-18): Now, hurd-i386 doesn't need caring about; kfreebsd-* architectures are looking quite badly already, so I won't change anything on those right now. I expect arm* people to tell us whether any change is needed for those, but since I see no menu anyway… This lefts us with powerpc which has no menu either. = This means amd64 + i386 only, unless I'm missing something? +/parapara arch=powerpc + +For arch-title;, currently only an experimental quotemini/quote ISO +image is availablefootnote id=gtk-miniiso + +para +The mini ISO image can be downloaded from a debian; mirror as described +in xref linkend=downloading-files/. +Look for filenamenetboot/gtk/mini.iso/filename. +/para + +/footnote. It should work on almost all PowerPC systems that have +an ATI graphical card, but is unlikely to work on other systems. = So no powerpc here I think. I'd have to check an actual installation image under emulation, maybe; but I'm a bit too lazy for this right now. Worst case we could ping debian-powerpc@ to make sure. I've now checked that indeed powerpc has had a graphical target for a long while but it hasn't been used/advertised through boot menus, at least from what I can tell by looking at the files under the build/boot/powerpc directory in the debian-installer source package. +notepara + +The graphical installer requires significantly more memory to run than +the regular installer: minimum-memory-gtk;. If insufficient memory is +available, it will automatically fall back to the regular +quotenewt/quote frontend. + +/parapara + +If the amount of memory in your system is below minimum-memory;, +the graphical installer may fail to boot at all while booting the +regular installer would still work. Using the regular installer is +recommended for systems with little available memory. + +/para/note I'm not sure since I tend to use 1GB RAM every time, but I thought there was some fallback mechanism in place? Except that I missed what Samuel mentioned. :-) Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
[ Adding -accessibility@ and -cd@ to the loop. ] Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com (2014-08-17): On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 01:25:28PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Control: tag -1 confirmed Another issue is that it requires much more memory, but that IMO is not a blocker. It does require careful documentation though. Holger's last reports reminded of this, which we finally didn't do for wheezy. Unless someone has an objection, I'll schedule this switch for the next d-i upload. Yay, definitely. We never did get round to this for Wheezy, so let's get it done now. On a related note: we have an amd64-i386 “multi-arch” netinst image. I'd be happy to take opinions on the following questions since that's the only image linked directly from www.debian.org, which leads some people to call it “_the_ default installation image”… Its boot menu reads right now (at least in Jessie Beta 1): Install 64 bit install Graphical install 64 bit graphical install Advanced options Help Install with speech synthesis 64 bit speech install FWIW, I'm tempted to modify it so that it becomes: Install Graphical install 64 bit install 64 bit graphical install Advanced options Help Install with speech synthesis 64 bit speech install This means swiching items #2 and #3, so that we have 32-bit and 64-bit entries together (which is what happens in the Advanced options sub-menu). Speech synthesis entries can be kept together separately (see below). = debian-boot/cd@: anyone against such a change? The default is Install right now, which installs i386. The topic of this bug report is switching to Graphical install by default, but shouldn't we also promote amd64 by default while we're at it? This would mean having 64 bit graphical install as the default. = debian-boot/cd@: do we want amd64 by default? Since the menus can be confusing a bit, I'm also wondering whether we should be explicit about the non-64 bit items, and prefix them with 32 bit. = debian-boot/cd@: opinions? If we were to switch to amd64 as the default architecture, we should probably point the s shortcut (for speech synthesis) from Install with speech synthesis to 64 bit speech install. = debian-accessibility@: if we go from i386 to amd64 by default, is there anything that needs to be done on your side (doc update etc.) that we should coordinate with you? As far as I can see, right now we have s = i386, s + down arrow = amd64. This change would mean s = amd64, s + up arrow = i386. I'm not sure that changing the shortcuts are a good thing, to be honest, but being consistent as far as the default architecture is concerned would probably be a good idea anyway. :/ Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Hoy, Le mardi, 19 août 2014, 01.17:02 Cyril Brulebois a écrit : The default is Install right now, which installs i386. The topic of this bug report is switching to Graphical install by default, but shouldn't we also promote amd64 by default while we're at it? This would mean having 64 bit graphical install as the default. = debian-boot/cd@: do we want amd64 by default? While I don't have a definitive opinion on the ordering of the menu choices, I definitively think amd64 should be picked by default on amd64 architectures. Especially since multiarch, there's no good reason left for installing i386 on amd64-capable machines AFAIK. Now, the ideal would be to use syslinux' ifcpu/ifcpu64 c32 modules to determine the menu order depending on the machine (see [0]): no 64 bit option on 32 bit machines, hidden or down the menu 32 bit option on 64 bit-capable machines. I'd be happy to iron out some proposals during DebConf, if that idea seems interesting. OdyX [0] https://bugs.debian.org/707844#45 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Control: tag -1 confirmed Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl (2008-06-10): On Tuesday 10 June 2008, Didier Raboud wrote: In my humble opinion, with the stability (and the beauty) of the graphical installer, the graphical menu (under i386 and amd64) should default to the graphical installer. Obviously, the change has to be done with care and only on arches where applicable, but would be a good step forward (with the classical text installer staying as fallback). We are considering this but there are still a few blocking issues before we can do that: - issues with keyboard support in some languages - missing support to start a shell from other components, which especially affects the rescue mode for the graphical installer - some dialogs, especially in the partitioner, still look too messy because of missing column alignment The last two issues are actively being worked on and may be solved in time for Lenny. The first is much more problematic and will likely require (upstream) help. Another issue is that it requires much more memory, but that IMO is not a blocker. It does require careful documentation though. Holger's last reports reminded of this, which we finally didn't do for wheezy. Unless someone has an objection, I'll schedule this switch for the next d-i upload. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 01:25:28PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Control: tag -1 confirmed Another issue is that it requires much more memory, but that IMO is not a blocker. It does require careful documentation though. Holger's last reports reminded of this, which we finally didn't do for wheezy. Unless someone has an objection, I'll schedule this switch for the next d-i upload. Yay, definitely. We never did get round to this for Wheezy, so let's get it done now. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com There's no sensation to compare with this Suspended animation, A state of bliss -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Hi, Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org wrote: Control: tag -1 confirmed Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl (2008-06-10): On Tuesday 10 June 2008, Didier Raboud wrote: In my humble opinion, with the stability (and the beauty) of the graphical installer, the graphical menu (under i386 and amd64) should default to the graphical installer. Obviously, the change has to be done with care and only on arches where applicable, but would be a good step forward (with the classical text installer staying as fallback). We are considering this but there are still a few blocking issues before we can do that: - issues with keyboard support in some languages - missing support to start a shell from other components, which especially affects the rescue mode for the graphical installer - some dialogs, especially in the partitioner, still look too messy because of missing column alignment The last two issues are actively being worked on and may be solved in time for Lenny. The first is much more problematic and will likely require (upstream) help. Another issue is that it requires much more memory, but that IMO is not a blocker. It does require careful documentation though. Holger's last reports reminded of this, which we finally didn't do for wheezy. Unless someone has an objection, I'll schedule this switch for the next d-i upload. Mraw, KiBi. That would lead to more changes to the d-i manual IMO. At least: booting of the graphical installer is now only documented in an appendix. If Graphical install is the default, the info about it should be integrated into the regular boot-installer chapter. I could provide a first patch as a proposal, if wanted. Holger -- Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Holger Wansing hwans...@mailbox.org (2014-08-17): That would lead to more changes to the d-i manual IMO. Indeed, and since you were updating the manual already I thought it might make sense to batch everything together. At least: booting of the graphical installer is now only documented in an appendix. If Graphical install is the default, the info about it should be integrated into the regular boot-installer chapter. I could provide a first patch as a proposal, if wanted. I haven't taken the time to look at what's documented right now, but feel free to start updating the doc. As I see it, the needed modifications should only be about updating the menu entry getting selected by default, so that we move from text-mode install to graphical-mode install on amd64/i386 architectures. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
Package: debian-installer Severity: wishlist Hi, In my humble opinion, with the stability (and the beauty) of the graphical installer, the graphical menu (under i386 and amd64) should default to the graphical installer. Obviously, the change has to be done with care and only on arches where applicable, but would be a good step forward (with the classical text installer staying as fallback). Regards, Didier -- System Information: Debian Release: lenny/sid APT prefers testing APT policy: (700, 'testing'), (700, 'stable'), (600, 'unstable'), (50, 'experimental'), (50, 'unstable'), (50, 'testing'), (50, 'stable') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-rc5-amd64 (SMP w/2 CPU cores) Locale: LANG=fr_CH.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=fr_CH.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#485586: debian-installer: Default to graphical install
On Tuesday 10 June 2008, Didier Raboud wrote: In my humble opinion, with the stability (and the beauty) of the graphical installer, the graphical menu (under i386 and amd64) should default to the graphical installer. Obviously, the change has to be done with care and only on arches where applicable, but would be a good step forward (with the classical text installer staying as fallback). We are considering this but there are still a few blocking issues before we can do that: - issues with keyboard support in some languages - missing support to start a shell from other components, which especially affects the rescue mode for the graphical installer - some dialogs, especially in the partitioner, still look too messy because of missing column alignment The last two issues are actively being worked on and may be solved in time for Lenny. The first is much more problematic and will likely require (upstream) help. Another issue is that it requires much more memory, but that IMO is not a blocker. It does require careful documentation though. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
