Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 02:06:25AM +0200, Guillem Jover wrote: Also if udeb:s are going to be using xz then it makes even more sense to use it for everything. µdebs won't use the xz default, though. (The compression for them will be handled in debhelper.) With the compression scheme I posted to -boot it doesn't need more memory than gzip while still compressing better. I don't see any trouble in activating xz for amd64/i386 immediately before the release, if the problem with the core packages is solved. (I.e. debootstrap avoiding any ties to xz or avoiding the compression of core packages.) Kind regards Philipp Kern signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [DRAFT] Debian Installer Wheezy Alpha1 release
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 21:50:44 +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: * Linux kernel installation fails on old x86 processors (earlier than 686, or 686 without PAE) (#672611). Should just be 686 without PAE I think, older CPUs would get the 486 flavour, not 686. Cheers, Julien signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Steve McIntyre wrote: Hey folks, Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of supporting the following single-CD installations: * Gnome desktop from CD#1 * KDE desktop from KDE CD#1 * XFCE desktop from light CD#1 * LXDE desktop from light CD#1 * base system only from netinst CD At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to work acceptably with Wheezy. If that's the case, then we should warn people that they will need to use at least one of: * more CDs * a DVD * a network mirror to get a useful/useable installation. What about supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments (maybe even making one of the the default environment)? Then there wouldn't be the need for multiple CD #1's. Anyone that wants gnome/kde after installation will need to grab those from the mirrors (or use DVD or greater media). Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-cd-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=mp7zmd16g325awdxrxvdzfetz_zxjfwhqg+zviqj2j...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
On Sun, 13 May 2012 18:36:09 -0400 Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org wrote: On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Steve McIntyre wrote: Hey folks, Remembering the fun that we had during the Squeeze release with trying to make single-CD installations work well, it's time to consider what we're going to *claim* to support in Wheezy. We've had a history of supporting the following single-CD installations: * Gnome desktop from CD#1 * KDE desktop from KDE CD#1 * XFCE desktop from light CD#1 * LXDE desktop from light CD#1 * base system only from netinst CD At this point, I'm skeptical that either of the first two are going to work acceptably with Wheezy. If that's the case, then we should warn people that they will need to use at least one of: * more CDs * a DVD * a network mirror to get a useful/useable installation. What about supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments (maybe even making one of the the default environment)? Then there wouldn't be the need for multiple CD #1's. Anyone that wants gnome/kde after installation will need to grab those from the mirrors (or use DVD or greater media). supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments is exactly what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable. There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release. I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options. That way, GNOME and KDE (as explicit options) should only show up in the list if using a medium which can provide that amount of packages. -- Neil Williams = http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/ pgpxJTgFClwV0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
Neil Williams wrote: supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments is exactly what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable. There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release. I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options. That way, GNOME and KDE (as explicit options) should only show up in the list if using a medium which can provide that amount of packages. While I have started putting XFCE on systems I install for family etc, I am not sure if it's really suitable yes to be the default desktop environment. There are probably quite a lot of fit and finish issues. Here are two major problems: * Currently the XFCE taks uses wicd, which has a much less polished UI than network-manager. For example, when wicd needs a password, it opens a rather complex configuration panel, rather than just prompting for the password. Probably some users also use network-manager for things like cell connections, that wicd doesn't support. * There does not seem to be much accessability support in XFCE. With gnome, we have a fully accessible system from the login manager on. Accessability improvements are on the XFCE roadmap; this should improve with time. http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.10/roadmap/accessibility I hope that we can avoid the CD size forcing the desktop for at least one more release. Note that we had the same trouble the last two releases, and managed to make it fit in the end both times. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
On May 14, Neil Williams codeh...@debian.org wrote: I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options. What is the point of providing a default which is not what people usually want? Just document that a normal desktop install will require two CDs. Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop systems with only a CD and no networking, and why? What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for over 10 years now. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió: [snip] Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop systems with only a CD and no networking, and why? What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for over 10 years now. Actually, I was going to ask exactly that. To the best of my knowledge, CDROM players have been out of stock for a while (more than two years?) Normally people will buy a DVDROM player. Well, at least here in Argentina :-/ Could it be reasonable to drop graphical desktops environments for one-CD installs? If you want a GDE, get the DVD. Or two or more CDs. Kinds regards, Lisandro. -- http://xkcd.com/150/ Personas como ésta no se encuentran todos los días. Y cuando uno las encuentra, suelen no estar disponibles. Si encontrás una, no la pierdas. Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer http://perezmeyer.com.ar/ http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
Hello, Joey Hess, le Sun 13 May 2012 20:39:20 -0400, a écrit : Neil Williams wrote: supporting only the smaller/lighter desktop environments is exactly what comes out of accepting that the first two options just won't be acceptable. Changing compression is only putting off the inevitable. There's *no* reason to think that GNOME or KDE are going to get back below the 1 CD limit at the next Debian stable release. I'd support XFCE4 as the default Graphical Desktop Environment and possibly putting GNOME (and KDE) as alternative options. That way, GNOME and KDE (as explicit options) should only show up in the list if using a medium which can provide that amount of packages. While I have started putting XFCE on systems I install for family etc, I am not sure if it's really suitable yes to be the default desktop environment. There are probably quite a lot of fit and finish issues. Here are two major problems: [...] * There does not seem to be much accessability support in XFCE. With gnome, we have a fully accessible system from the login manager on. Accessability improvements are on the XFCE roadmap; this should improve with time. http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.10/roadmap/accessibility Well, things are not so clear. With gnome, we *used* to have a fully accessible system from the login manager on. The gnome3 transition has brought a lot of regressions, and using XFCE as a base for an accessible desktop makes a lot of sense; at least as much it does with gnome3. Quoting the abovementioned page: “but there are a lot of parts of the interface (custom widgets, buttons without label) that are hard to access with a screen reader.” I haven't tried myself, but gnome3 most probably introduced non-accessible custom widgets, buttons without labels, etc. For instance, the alt-F2 widget, used a lot by blind people, is currently inaccessible... I hope that we can avoid the CD size forcing the desktop for at least one more release. Note that we had the same trouble the last two releases, and managed to make it fit in the end both times. It looked to me like it was harder and harder each time. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-cd-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120514012958.gv4...@type.famille.thibault.fr
Re: Wheezy release: CDs are not big enough any more...
On 12-05-13 at 10:26pm, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote: On Dom 13 May 2012 21:40:10 Marco d'Itri escribió: [snip] Does anybody actually know that people routinely try to install desktop systems with only a CD and no networking, and why? What is the use case for this? Cheap DVD readers have been around for over 10 years now. Actually, I was going to ask exactly that. To the best of my knowledge, CDROM players have been out of stock for a while (more than two years?) Normally people will buy a DVDROM player. Well, at least here in Argentina :-/ It is my impression from my visits in the Fall (although I do not have any hard data to support it) that in India and Indonesia network access is generally so slow that even if computers have DVD drives the common media downloaded and used is CD. Could it be reasonable to drop graphical desktops environments for one-CD installs? If you want a GDE, get the DVD. Or two or more CDs. If those interested in the big desktop environments are ok using DVD, what is then the problem in putting light desktop environment on CD1? - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature
