Re: Bug#758116: Allow to select Blends selection during installation - just "DE", "Web server", "Mail server" is NOT enough

[Ole Streicher]

Hi Cyril,

Am 21.05.2016 um 23:11 schrieb Cyril Brulebois:
> so it would be nice to support all desc files shipped in tasksel-data
> rather than hardcoding debian-tasks.desc when the --internal-tasks-only
> flag is passed.

If you want to do it in the way it was proposed some days ago (move the
blends and the desktop choice into separate pages):

You could use a "Section" keyword in the tasks header: this is already
there for the structuration of tasks. Then the "main" task would just
display everything without a section, and one option for each section
(currently "Desktop Environment" and "Debian Pure Blends"). Enabling
these options leads to follow-up screens showing their content.

Aside from keeping the initial tasksel screen clean, this would also
naturally remove the confusing checkboxes that are currently on the
sections headers.

Best regards

Ole

Re: Bug#758116: Allow to select Blends selection during installation - just "DE", "Web server", "Mail server" is NOT enough

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Cyril Brulebois]
> Please explain how you came to that conclusion.

I'm sorry, but the thread so far do not make me believe you are not
really want to understand what I mean, but instead look for a way to
push your view and any explanation I come up with would be brushed away.

I believe it is best for me to not get involved in d-i.  To me, based on
the current and earlier email and IRC exchanges, d-i development seem
like a toxic environment and I believe my effort is better spent
elsewhere.  Thus I do not see the point of spending the time to try to
explain why and how my view is fundamentally different from yours, as I
am conviced the effort will be wasted.  It make me sad, but I just do
not have the energy to try to do something about it.

I was hoping to work on hw-detect and isenkram integration, but have not
been able to muster the motivation to do it so far.  I will probably
limit myself to adding an udeb for isenkram and leave the d-i part to
others, even if it probably mean automatic firmware setup will not
become part of the official installer.

I suspect the cause is just a question of incompatible personalities
involved, and either that the culture was different back when we ran the
d-i project at the start or that I changed so much the culture is no
longer friendly to me.

-- 
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

Re: Bug#758116: Allow to select Blends selection during installation - just "DE", "Web server", "Mail server" is NOT enough

[Cyril Brulebois]

Petter Reinholdtsen  (2016-05-22):
> [Cyril Brulebois]
> > There's no udebs involved in what I summarized for Blends.
> 
> Exactly.

Thanks for confirming that your “Being able to add extra tasks using
udebs is a feature, not a bug.” wasn't really on topic then.

> I suspect using udebs to enable blends is be a better idea than
> making the Blends tasksel tasks priority standard.

Having this kind of move forced on us doesn't seem reasonable to me,
which has been exactly my point over the past few mails.

Let me reiterate: I don't want this to happen ever again.


> > Also: If pkgsel changes the way it calls tasksel, debian-edu udebs can
> > certainly interact with it so that it behaves as desired.
> 
> You misunderstand the role of the udebs.

Please explain how you came to that conclusion.

> The Debian Edu udeb ask for education-tasks to be installed, and
> then the normal d-i take care of the rest to get the correct Debian
> Edu tasks installed using tests and the locale settings.  Sure, we
> can come up with a new way to do it, but my point is that we are
> using this feature of tasksel today, and there is no alternative I
> know of that is equally robust and well integrated into the
> installer.

What? I'm talking about a future evolution. I can't see why something
using a pre-pkgsel.d hook to prepare things for d-i couldn't be
updated to create e.g. an extra file to get pkgsel to behave as
intended. I don't see why such implementation details would be
important in this discussion, and that's why I mentioned “debian-edu
udebs can certainly interact with it so that it behaves as desired”.

Pretty sure I'm not the one “misunderstanding” anything here.


KiBi.


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Re: Bug#758116: Allow to select Blends selection during installation - just "DE", "Web server", "Mail server" is NOT enough

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Cyril Brulebois]
> There's no udebs involved in what I summarized for Blends.

Exactly.  I suspect using udebs to enable blends is be a better idea
than making the Blends tasksel tasks priority standard.

> Also: If pkgsel changes the way it calls tasksel, debian-edu udebs can
> certainly interact with it so that it behaves as desired.

You misunderstand the role of the udebs.  The Debian Edu udeb ask for
education-tasks to be installed, and then the normal d-i take care of
the rest to get the correct Debian Edu tasks installed using tests and
the locale settings.  Sure, we can come up with a new way to do it, but
my point is that we are using this feature of tasksel today, and there
is no alternative I know of that is equally robust and well integrated
into the installer.

-- 
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

Re: Bug#758116: Allow to select Blends selection during installation - just "DE", "Web server", "Mail server" is NOT enough

[Petter Reinholdtsen]

[Cyril Brulebois]
> I'm very much not happy with tasksel's picking up whatever people have
> managed to get into a basic system, and I would very much prefer if it
> would only look at its own debian-tasks.desc when running from the
> installer. Any objections?

Yes.

Debian Edu uses the current behaviour to install its tasks during
installation, but we do not use standard priority tasks to get into the
installer, we use udebs to trigger the installation of education-tasks.

Being able to add extra tasks using udebs is a feature, not a bug.

-- 
Happy hacking
Petter Reinholdtsen

Re: Bug#758116: Allow to select Blends selection during installation - just "DE", "Web server", "Mail server" is NOT enough

[Cyril Brulebois]

Petter Reinholdtsen  (2016-05-21):
> [Cyril Brulebois]
> > I'm very much not happy with tasksel's picking up whatever people have
> > managed to get into a basic system, and I would very much prefer if it
> > would only look at its own debian-tasks.desc when running from the
> > installer. Any objections?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Debian Edu uses the current behaviour to install its tasks during
> installation, but we do not use standard priority tasks to get into the
> installer, we use udebs to trigger the installation of education-tasks.
> 
> Being able to add extra tasks using udebs is a feature, not a bug.

There's no udebs involved in what I summarized for Blends.


Also: If pkgsel changes the way it calls tasksel, debian-edu udebs can
certainly interact with it so that it behaves as desired.


KiBi.


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Re: Bug#758116: Allow to select Blends selection during installation - just "DE", "Web server", "Mail server" is NOT enough

[Cyril Brulebois]

Cyril Brulebois  (2016-05-21):
> I'm very much not happy with tasksel's picking up whatever people have
> managed to get into a basic system, and I would very much prefer if it
> would only look at its own debian-tasks.desc when running from the
> installer. Any objections?

As a side note, pkgsel calls tasksel with --new-install, but maybe
others are using this flag outside d-i contexts. So I'd probably add
a --internal-tasks-only there.

As another side note, tasksel-data in Debian only has:
  /usr/share/tasksel/descs/debian-tasks.desc

while latest Ubuntu has:
  /usr/share/tasksel/descs/debian-tasks.desc
  /usr/share/tasksel/descs/ubuntu-tasks.desc

so it would be nice to support all desc files shipped in tasksel-data
rather than hardcoding debian-tasks.desc when the --internal-tasks-only
flag is passed.

Martin, I think this would go along the lines of the idea you mentioned
briefly on IRC?


KiBi.


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