Re: Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Anthony DeRobertis
On 1/29/20 2:19 PM, Simon McVittie wrote: I think we have a fairly good picture of the costs that would be incurred from using alternatives: more interacting code paths to test, potentially more configurations that are technically possible but are not considered supported, and packages with

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 1/29/20 8:19 PM, Simon McVittie wrote: > - Linux systems not booted with systemd > (either no init system at all, like a typical schroot or Docker > container, or a non-systemd init system like sysvinit) This is very much one type of systems I have in mind, yes, and open{sysusers,tmpfiles}

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 1/29/20 4:49 PM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Le mercredi, 29 janvier 2020, 16.07:21 h CET Thomas Goirand a écrit : >> This reasoning can make sense, if we agree that we should use something >> else than /bin/systemd-sysusers and standardize on something else like >> /bin/sysusers. Then we

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Thomas Goirand
Hi Didier! Thanks for taking the time to reply. On 1/29/20 4:31 PM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Software installed as /bin/systemd-* , created within the systemd project, to > fulfill systemd's view of the world, takes a reasonable hit on the binaries' > namespace: "systemd-*". Really, we

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Svante Signell
On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 12:23 -0800, Moritz Mühlenhoff wrote: > Simon McVittie wrote: > > I think we have a fairly good picture of the costs that would be > > incurred from using alternatives: > > Plus in the case of opentmpfiles; a pile of security issues: systemd- > tmpfiles addresses a number of

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Moritz Mühlenhoff
Simon McVittie wrote: > I think we have a fairly good picture of the costs that would be > incurred from using alternatives: Plus in the case of opentmpfiles; a pile of security issues: systemd-tmpfiles addresses a number of complex races using low level primitives like openat() et al. or O_PATH,

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Matthias Klumpp
Am Mi., 29. Jan. 2020 um 20:39 Uhr schrieb Simon McVittie : > [...] > I think there are three categories of systems that it might make sense > to consider separately here. In ascending order of "amount of systemd": > > - non-Linux ports to which systemd does not intend to be portable (and > I

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Gunnar Wolf
Svante Signell dijo [Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 08:15:36PM +0100]: > > It's not like having two competing implementations causes much > > harm here.we technically _can_ allow any /bin/systemd-* to be > > provided by another implementation, that we should (actually, I think > > we should clearly _not_).

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Simon McVittie
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 11:18:53 +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > you don't seem to agree that it'd be ok for one to use > opensysuser instead of the systemd implementation if systemd is running. > I do not agree with this, and I believe it is up to the users to decide > what to do, even if we, as an

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Svante Signell
On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 12:24 -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > It's not like having two competing implementations causes much > harm here.we technically _can_ allow any /bin/systemd-* to be > provided by another implementation, that we should (actually, I think > we should clearly _not_). Of course

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Gunnar Wolf
Thomas Goirand dijo [Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 04:07:21PM +0100]: > This reasoning can make sense, if we agree that we should use something > else than /bin/systemd-sysusers and standardize on something else like > /bin/sysusers. Then we modify the Debian policy that /bin/sysusers is > *the* way to do

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Gunnar Wolf
I just want to subscribe with a very big +1 to what OdyX has said here: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud dijo [Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 04:31:09PM +0100]: > (...) > > So I am in the opinion that "as long as it's properly hooked in the > > packaging system and boot sequence" simply doesn't work in this case, as >

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud
Le mercredi, 29 janvier 2020, 16.07:21 h CET Thomas Goirand a écrit : > This reasoning can make sense, if we agree that we should use something > else than /bin/systemd-sysusers and standardize on something else like > /bin/sysusers. Then we modify the Debian policy that /bin/sysusers is > *the*

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud
Le mercredi, 29 janvier 2020, 12.41:52 h CET Thomas Goirand a écrit : > I'm replying to you, but it goes also for Phillip Kern too, which had a > similar answer. Only words, I know, but let's try to answer technical points, not address people. "Talk to the space, not to individuals" > My idea

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Raphael Hertzog
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020, Thomas Goirand wrote: > This is exactly what should be avoided. It's perfectly fine to try to > use opensysusers with systemd if one wants. In fact, that's exactly the > best way we could do to be able to test it. Also, dpkg-divert is really > ugly, and something you use as