Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes:
Yeah, this is a good point. Since systemd uses the daemon-written PID
file for tracking forking daemons, it doesn't have the same issues as
the upstart expect fork or expect daemon protocols. Obviously, an
external
Simon McVittie s...@debian.org writes:
On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 at 16:45:38 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
The second supported option is DAEMON_OPTS, which sets additional flags
to add to the process. For as long as we need to support multiple init
systems, this option needs to stay in /etc/default
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes (Bug#727708: loose ends for init system decision):
These requirements, on the other hand, I find completely baffling.
This approach seems completely contrary to Debian best practices. Our
standard practice with all
possible approach would be to just define them all to -ENOSYS, since
they generally wouldn't be called when sd_listen_fds isn't available,
although that would be a problem if any package ever used those APIs
outside of a systemd context. (But I'm not sure why one would do that.)
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goal truly both warrants it and requires it, and with the full
understanding that this will often mean that the current maintainers will
step down and someone else will need to do the actual work.
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an environment
variable, though, as long as it's unset afterwards so that it's not
inherited by children.
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Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes:
On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 02:48:52PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
I have never seen a gratuitous incompatibility caused by this. Do you
have any examples?
I would argue that every single result returned by 'ls -l /usr/sbin/
/usr/bin|grep /bin
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes:
* Red Hat adopted upstart but never did a wholescale conversion, and then
abandoned upstart in favor of systemd. Obviously, one should not put
too much weight on this; Red Hat is a commercial company that has a
wealth of reasons for its actions
systems I considered.
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Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes (Bug#727708: loose ends for init system decision):
6. Debian's non-Linux ports should either use the same init system as
Debian's Linux ports or agree on an init system that they're both going
to use. The porting
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes (Bug#727708: init system other points, and conclusion):
First, other choices besides systemd and upstart.
I agree with your comments here; it appears you've investigated OpenRC
in more detail than I have but I'm happy
asked to consider. But I think we should
be mindful of the restriction on the TC not doing design work and let
Policy for packaging support of upstart and/or systemd be hashed out
through the regular Policy process.
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Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
]] Russ Allbery
Given that, I don't believe a Technical Committee choice of a default
init system is going to make either the systemd or the upstart
maintainers want to stop maintaining their packages.
Given what you're basically deciding between
, sysvinit is capable of most of what the
typical user needs); there isn't the same driving force of user preference
that leads users to switch between desktop environments, and quite a bit
more integration support is required for the init system.
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if they want GNOME to
continue working.
I don't see what you're saying here as substantively different than what I
said in my writeup about the ecosystem. I feel like we're both presenting
the same facts through different lenses.
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 11:56:33AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
One can
Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org writes:
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
I believe that we have enough information to make an informed choice
already, and that the sides are fairly well-defined and hardened in
their opinions. That means that this dispute falls under
to Hurd and kFreeBSD. As I
mentioned but probably not explicitly enough, the existence of those ports
would, for me, turn the whole second part of my analysis into a dead heat
between systemd and upstart as opposed to a general advantage for upstart
in terms of ecosystem integration.
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still think it's less likely to be
done by accident) that waits for the network to be configured, but
implements a timeout to ensure that you don't stall forever.
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services binding to particular configured IP
addresses to use IP_FREEBIND because IPv6 network setup can take an
unpredictable amount of time.
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because I didn't have that setting. I can confirm that adding Requires=
now does the right thing: if the socket is explicitly stopped, the service
is stopped as well, and if the service is then started, the socket is also
started first.
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would always
start the service without a socket otherwise.
Yes, that matches my experience. Adding Requires= fixed that case.
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Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
]] Russ Allbery
It would, however, be nice if this were more clearly stated, since the
guidance to the author of the unit file about what dependencies one should
or should not explicitly add is a bit sparse. In particular, I wonder
took).
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or both of the synchronization protocols.
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instead of
init-system-helpers.
It's worth noting that the systemd support in update-rc.d is substantially
better than the upstart support. (There's more about this in my other
message that's being temporarily blocked.)
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Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes:
For comparison purposes, the *total* burden, from my upstream
perspective, of the two options was:
* systemd: 14 lines (8 lines of code, 6 lines of build system)
* upstart: 12 lines (6 lines of code, 6 lines of documentation)
Since upstart
(-R), set the desired flags
# in DAEMON_OPTS in /etc/default/lbcd.
exec /usr/sbin/lbcd -f -l -Z $DAEMON_OPTS
This seems to work and is what I will be uploading.
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systemd[1]: Starting responder for load balancing...
Dec 28 17:18:11 wanderer lbcd[3465]: ready to accept requests
Dec 28 17:18:11 wanderer lbcd[3465]: request from ::1 (version 3)
Dec 28 17:18:11 wanderer systemd[1]: Started responder for load balancing.
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Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes:
I have now uploaded lbcd 3.5.0-1 to the archive.
And now lbcd 3.5.0-2, because I completely forgot to add the stanzas to
the systemd unit and upstart configuration file to run lbcd as a non-root
user. Whoops. (And, of course, I noticed one more problem
starting a service. I ran into several things with both
upstart and systemd that would need Policy documentation to ensure that we
did them consistently.
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about both be objections to fundamental design decisions and places where
upstream felt that implementing his approach would make the system more
fragile. In one case, I agree with them. Rejecting such requests does
not make for a bad upstream. I would argue that's upstream's job.
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in Debian. systemd's support looks ready for widespread
production use right now. I intend to configure my package in the next
upload to use socket activation with systemd if available.
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,
MANGLE_GLOB = 1
};
and then at the call site:
n = unit_name_mangle(e, MANGLE_NOGLOB);
which makes the meaning of that argument immediately obvious.
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dpkg perhaps?
I would hold off until we decide which init system we're going with, and
I'm not sure where this belongs. It may make more sense to put it into
dh-systemd and/or dh_installinit.
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Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
]] Russ Allbery
It looks like both upstart and systemd don't provide direct mechanisms
to manage all instances. The upstart cookbook recommends getting a
list of all active services and extracting the list of instances of a
particular service from
configuration (which is quite nice
to do, since it isolates Java applications that may require different
override JARs), you want to restart all of them when you upgrade the
packaged Tomcat.
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, but it's possible to find bugs in just about anything.
Updating numerous copies of that code is not appealing.
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Good point. Anything that's using socket activation probably doesn't
really need additional synchronization.
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Andreas Barth a...@ayous.org writes:
* Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) [131219 04:09]:
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
systemd supports the non-forking daemon too. Only, instead of
raise(SIGSTOP) the daemon has to fetch an AF_UNIX socket name from an
environment variable
as upstream for my Debian
packages and try fairly hard to embed everything into the upstream release
with necessary conditionals where needed, but that's just a philosophical
approach and neither approach is inherently superior.
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Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes:
I'd like to see both of them support systemd's method, since it's
extensible and provides more general functionality. I think the
benefit of support for SIGSTOP is marginal; adding sd_notify calls is
not that much
.
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that it's ready, so this is only an issue if you try to
attach during the early startup stage. That's not an entirely impossible
situation, but less likely and not one of the cases where I've done this
as an administrator before.
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versions for backwards-compatibility reasons.
This is not difficult to handle at the packaging layer if we need to do
it.
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Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes:
* Lots of really interesting defense-in-depth security features. I
particularly liked ReadWriteDirectories, ReadOnlyDirectories,
InaccessibleDirectories, PrivateNetwork, and NoNewPrivileges, which
provide a sort
kdbus in this; if it's included
in the kernel, I highly doubt Debian will refuse to use it in the long
run) are pretty much the same components that people are concerned about
being unstable.
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will be managed given the event-driven kernel, and how proper
daemon management at least at the level common to upstart, systemd, and
OpenRC will be added.
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, it
would just stop itself and never start again.
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the process
would have already been reparented by init before the SIGSTOP signal is
sent. So it does rely on the special properties of PID 1, namely its
adoption of all processes that have abandoned their parent process.
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, PrivateNetwork, and NoNewPrivileges, which
provide a sort of lightweight process containment that would be much
easier to use than a full-blown chroot, and in some ways more powerful.
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understand the plumbing of this stuff well enough to know where the
dependencies could surface.
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is not going to accept
new systemd versions from that point on, so systemd should only support
a kernel that's 3 years old.
Right, exactly.
It's a real concern, but we should be clear about what our time horizon of
concern is.
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is the former udev problems on steroids.
I see no evidence to support this contention apart from a bunch of
speculation on your part about what *might* happen four years in the
future if particular features missed a release window.
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position. I hope we don't need to do that, but sometimes
when enough of the rest of the world disagrees with you, you need to
move on.
+1 to all of this.
Sam expresses here roughly what I've been trying to express, but much
better than I have managed to express it.
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quite good. This is more the code-level,
helping the programmer sort of documentation, which is a bit lower-level.
Both upstart and systemd seem to have excellent manuals and high-level
design and interface documentation.
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of a nicely-written
and readable code base, although that's partly because much of it is
written the way I would have written that code.
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Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes:
On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 11:24:41AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
They're fairly trivial ones, though, no? Maintaining a local patch to
change the paths in a systemd unit is certainly way less effort than
maintaining the whole unit. It's akin to changing
to have to deal
with those components *anyway*. Choosing a different init system than
systemd is not going to let us ignore logind, since it's going to be a
required component for a modern desktop. (Although it would still be good
to know if this is the case.)
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. And it sounds
like that's what you're saying can happen. I'm trying to feel out how
plausible that outcome is.
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. (I've
probably read too much Knuth, although I don't think Knuth's method of
doing this worked.)
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that we're having, at
least in the comparison between systemd and upstart's init components.
The question is more whether there are sufficient resources in the upstart
community that such development is likely.
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Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
Just a reminder that there is a Debian CTTE IRC meeting on #debian-ctte
on irc.debian.org tomorrow (date -d 'Thu Nov 22 18:00:00 GMT 2013').
I don't think that's the correct date.
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on everyone nominated would be more ideal for
openness and for public feedback, but also riskier, and possibly
uncomfortable.
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put forward lots of names -- right now, I
feel like that would be undermining a process that we sort of agreed on,
and I don't want to do that without conensus.
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Bdale Garbee bd...@gag.com writes:
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes:
So, I think it's safe to say that this process has, so far, not worked.
Only two candidates have been put forward, one by Ian and one by
myself.
Why do you equate this to not working?
The candidate I intend to rank
,
or do you expect to add more substantial points
- the status of their rebuttals: subject of course, to any future
changes by the other camps, how close are you to having what
you consider a good answer to the other camps' points ?
I think this would still be a good idea.
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Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes:
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
3. We propose to the DPL that Keith Packard should be appointed
to the TC. (Constitution 6.2(2))
4. We propose to the DPL that Philipp Kern should
Thijs Kinkhorst th...@debian.org writes:
On Wed, November 6, 2013 01:16, Russ Allbery wrote:
We'll want to look at both sides of that question, and try to
understand how much work like that is potentially on the horizon with
the various choices.
Do you? In the past Debian has not shied away
we're looking at in any given case is largely
determined by whether there *are* any other implementations of that
particular service.
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systemd as a project contains
considerably more subsystems than upstart or OpenRC do.
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you're concerned,
but I just don't see this as critical compared to other issues under
discussion.
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, but that
doesn't help if the problem you're trying to get a system call trace for
is during the daemon startup.
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3. Give all of the position drafters an opportunity to further revise
their positions based on feedback from that discussion
4. Have a vote based on those final position papers
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that
upstart lets me inline trivial shell fragments without worrying about
that while still keeping them readable.
I personally don't find any of your other arguments persuasive (maybe I'm
too used to writing portable /bin/sh scripts), but I do see where you're
coming from.
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Theodore Ts'o ty...@mit.edu writes:
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 06:21:27PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Well, I've said this before, but I think it's worth reiterating.
Either upstart or systemd configurations are *radically better* than
init scripts on basically every axis. They're more robust
Theodore Ts'o ty...@mit.edu writes:
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 06:18:29PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
I suspect you and I have a root disagreement over the utility of
exposing some of those degrees of freedom to every init script author,
but if you have some more specific examples of policy
), or there needs to be some sort of plan for
how equivalent functionality to systemd will be provided.
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of
init scripts is not the whole point, but it's a huge part of it.
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if there are plans that Lennart isn't aware
of for how that functionality will be provided.
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that's the eventual project direction or not as
soon as possible so that I have as much time as possible to decide on my
next steps.
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Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
The next Debian CTTE meeting will be in #debian-ctte on irc.debian.org
(OFTC) at date -d 'Thu Jul 25 17:00:00 GMT 2013'
I sadly won't be able to make it. I have work emergencies.
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to help with dma,
This might be a good opportunity to take a few things off your plate (and
get rid of some of the psychic weight that I know comes with having lots
of things pending that you don't have time to work on).
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on.
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. This is an internal
governance group for project technical decisions.
I believe the best place to send your question would be to
debian-u...@lists.debian.org, which is intended for questions about using
(including installing) Debian.
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policy that makes
each individual packager unhappy. (And which prompts arguments that
*their* individual package won't cause an *immediate* problem, which have
indeed predictably been raised in every discussion I've seen of this
particular problem.)
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).
I am on the side of Russ Allbery here. Ideally, as a developer, I
shouldn't have to worry about this, too much, and here is IMHO too much.
The infrastructure problems which Debian runs into shouldn't clash with
the convenience users either, to the point where Debian would be a very
special
have been rejected for the same reason in the past.
This has always felt to me like a technical flaw -- it would be nice to
make adding new packages cheap and find some way of not worrying so much
about metadata bloat -- but I have no technical solution.
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the maintainer
uploads an revert faster.
3. Asks the release team to allow the fixed package to move to
testing for the next stable release.
Calling for Votes on this resolution (as A) and the default resolution
(further discussion as F).
I vote A F.
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Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
Just a reminder that the next CTTE meeting is at
date -d 'Thu Feb 28 2013 18:00 +' in #debian-ctte on
irc.debian.org
I unfortunately won't be able to make it. I have a work meeting that
conflicts.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org
Andreas Barth a...@ayous.org writes:
Drafting a resolution on this:
[...]
Comments?
Yup, looks right to me.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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discuss this over on the Policy list, I suppose.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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packages. If such breakage is necessary to move forward, it
should only occur after obtaining rough consensus amongst the
relevant contributors or the project as a whole.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
pgpYPENixMTK2.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
How about this for a disposal:
Works for me. Thank you!
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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know how to do better
and get releases out faster because there's a truly intimidating amount of
work that has to get done to do the release and all the alternatives seem
to make the work even worse.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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be
great, but it's a hard problem, and there's no way that we're going to
come up with a solution to it right now in the middle of the wheezy
freeze.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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think we actually do require that in some cases. OpenSSH, the X server,
and GDM come immediately to mind.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
I'd like to call for votes to resolve #688772 with the following
options, with F as further discussion. Both options A and B require a
3:1 majority, as they overrule the gnome maintainers; Option C does not.
I vote CBFA.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org
consequences for not getting
that fix done in time that I'm not comfortable with.
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Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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