full ecosystem of packaging tools fits together. I
think the only way out for the /usr-merge transition specifically is
through, and until we finish that we're probably not in a good position to
absorb those lessons in a more comprehensive way, but I hope we don't skip
that step.
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s, not the full changelog. Any new
NEWS.Debian file entry for a package that you have installed is generally
worth reading, and this is the supported way (other than the Release Notes
for the full stable release) that Debian communicates major breaking
changes like this to users.
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m created by the maintainer and overriding the
maintainer will not help. Someone will have to do this work, and it is
very far from trivial.
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t for the TC bug to be resolved,
since there is a standing TC decision to make /bin a symlink to /usr/bin
and we can always change our wording later if that decision changes, but
we need to wait for the buildd /usr-merge anyway, so either way I don't
think we're ready to merge patches for this bug right n
on about how to talk about those paths in Policy. I
therefore don't think resolution of this bug blocks on the TC bug.
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Luca Boccassi writes:
> On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 02:26, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> (Also, no slight on the GUIX folks, but GUIX is not exactly an, uh,
>> major player in Linux distributions, and I'm not sure how much they
>> care about compatibility with anyone else.)
> T
why people who are familiar with the ABI process
are jumping in to say "please don't touch that, this is a big deal to us."
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es of our own creation with known
workarounds.
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Ansgar writes:
> On Wed, 2023-05-10 at 13:50 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Caring about them isn't the same thing as doing everything they want.
>> We can both try to make things as smooth for them as possible and still
>> make design decisions about Debian t
ng they want. We
can both try to make things as smooth for them as possible and still make
design decisions about Debian that they may disagree with or that may make
some property they want to maintain difficult or impossible. It's the
sort of decision we have to make on a case-by-case basis.
folks feel strongly that
we're doing this wrong. But more discussion, unless it's about truly new
approaches, often makes that kind of situation worse rather than better.
We may have to just uncomfortably sit with the disagreement for a while
and incrementally work our way out of it.
--
about within a single package.
Thanks, good catch. We've been dealing with this elsewhere as the other
replies pointed out, but we should update the wording in Policy to make
this explicit.
I'll open a separate bug for that.
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f a
Debian package, and a compatibility symlink at the old path is needed,
the symlink must be managed in a way that will not break when /path
and /usr/path are the same underlying directory due to symlinks or
other mechanisms.
We've had that rule in Policy since May of 2017
clear, that's not a great situation for those
systems to be in, since this mechanism is a bit fragile and probably not
as strong as one would like! But nonetheless we should be very careful
about taking any action that might break its historical properties.
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so we can err on the side of
convenience to let proposers rewrite the options to whatever they want.
If that makes previously acceptable options unacceptable, other TC members
can always propose new options or reinstate versions of the previous
options.)
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ed systems even if Debian itself will no
longer support such systems, and I don't think it would be *too*
challenging to do so. There's also just some super-minor stuff like tabs
vs. spaces, formatting of function signatures, etc., that I'm happy to
help clean up to smooth the path.)
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re, to start discussing and analyzing.
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ntation design that could get some consensus, and flush out the
remaining problems. (To be clear, others have been doing more of that
than I have, but I think it's a bit inaccurate to say that I've only been
complaining and not trying to help arrive at a proper fix.)
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Josh Triplett writes:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 10:35:10 -0700 Russ Allbery wrote:
>> That said, I personally am disappointed that the folks who have been
>> pushing merged-/usr forward are willing to leave dpkg in a known-buggy
>> state without attempting to patch it to fix
x
edge cases and maintain a high level of consistency and correctness.
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Sam Hartman writes:
>>>>>> "Russ" == Russ Allbery writes:
> Russ> Switching terminology to completely leave behind the terms
> Russ> with ambiguous meanings isn't a bad idea, but if so we really
> Russ> need a term that captures "
till possible?
If the relevant people required to implement a decision are willing to
tackle it that way, I am certainly willing to participate from the Policy
side.
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official declaration from Debian as
a project that their system configuration is unsupported, while
simultaneously this is the default installation mode for new systems and
something that we have elsewhere said is a correct system configuration.
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Felix Lechner writes:
> On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 9:33 PM Russ Allbery wrote:
>> We should define native and non-native packages in terms of version
>> numbers, and allow both native and non-native packages to use
>> single-tarball source package formats.
> I co-mai
(quilt) format that are unrelated to the native vs.
non-native package distinction. I have no useful opinions to add on that
topic.
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nt as
the replacement string, and thus will probably do nothing.
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upports the syntax of both.
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the same basic tool.
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/debian-vote/2021/10/msg00019.html
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tility and is interested
in handling bug reports and requests concerning it.
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project who are not at fault for any
of the historical init system hostility.
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ts or a conversion utility to satisfy that dependency.
That's where the "project supports the efforts of developers working on
such technologies" part of the GR result comes in.
Just to be extremely clear, the dependency structure for logind feels
different to me and I don't have an opinion on that.
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dation. In those cases, these words describe decisions that are
truly optional and at the maintainer's discretion.
This was intended to reflect the result of the GR.
The dependency structure for indicating a logind requirement is a more
complicated question and I don't personally have any opinion ab
on a lighter-weight machine than Firefox requires. And it's possible that
multi-core may be a reasonable requirement for that "heavy package" tier.
If we do go down that path, though, it would be nice to add a metadata
field so that maintainers can flag their packages as being "h
Martin Steigerwald <mar...@lichtvoll.de> writes:
> Russ Allbery - 28.10.17, 16:13:
>> There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.
> In my opinion this is a pretty bold statement.
> If everyone has been heard, noticed, felt and valued, if everything has
appellate
process, or conflict resolution mechanism known to humans fails at one or
more of those principles much of the time.
We should always try to do better.
We should avoid expecting ourselves to be superhuman.
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onal friendships.
There wasn't *anything* "left out" of that discussion.
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noting that I have a somewhat different approach
on how fast to commit changes. I'm a huge believer in lazy consensus and
in the power of reverts, so I tend towards committing things and reverting
them if needed, rather than waiting on the first commit.
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doesn't make me a
particularly unbiased judge of consensus.)
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it is, instead of focusing on the
disagreements and arguments.
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actually been one of the
least active members recently.
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this.
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be conveyed to the Release Team, after the change
is in unstable, by filing an unblock request in the usual way.
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pgpUNJ75KUCX6.pgp
Description: PGP signature
to interfere with systemd with the current version. In other words, I
think the existence of the package on the system should be a no-op if the
system is booted with systemd.
That makes this a minor bug, but not something that's too serious.
Am I wrong about this?
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in git. The result is below.
I intend to call for votes later today.
This looks great to me, Ian. Thank you!
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General Resolution option, whatever
that may be.
===
I vote: Y, FD
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Description: PGP signature
this to option A. (In other
words, omitting the statement of skepticism in favor of the more neutral
statement that we've been asked to rule on the topic.)
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to explain what harmful effect
this could have if they think it would have a harmful effect. My
understanding is that all of the possible harmful effects have been fixed
by various other changes.
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I think you got bit by the Mail-Followup-To and your messages didn't make
it to the CTTE bug.
Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
]] Russ Allbery
Thanks, Tollef! Okay, so there does appear to be a conflict here. It
sounds like your primary technical concern, not addressed by Martin's
of last February, and it's
not clear to me yet whether the TC even has actionable jurisdiction (in
that there may not even be a conflict).
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of #765803 all along. In which case I'm just confused, and
what I'm arguing about isn't even what you were intending. :)
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the
existing state. Did I get that wrong?
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Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes:
Thanks, Tollef! Okay, so there does appear to be a conflict here. It
sounds like your primary technical concern, not addressed by Martin's
mail, is that getting the dependencies right to install systemd on
initial
on.
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decision-making processes, so for this to be a TC
issue, I think we need some sign that process has failed in some way
before 2 becomes actionable for us.
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?
I would be particularly interested in your take on the analysis that Steve
Langasek posted to the debian-devel thread on why listing systemd-shim as
the first alternative dependency for libpam-systemd makes sense and should
not cause any negative effects for systemd users.
Thanks!
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deliberate and obvious method than pulling
systemd-sysv in via the dependency tree of some random package. The
partial upgrade UX for that is really bad, IMO.
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in package dependencies for
main
FD
I vote A, B, FD.
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and primarily useful for generating a template that
requires subsequent work?
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=741573#45
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inherently
support the XDG menu system.
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Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
Does anyone else on the CTTE use org mode?[1]
I do, although I read the documentation in a spike to get far enough to do
the one thing I wanted to do, and haven't really expanded my usage beyond
that.
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numeric
ties. It's used to select a winning option from the Schwartz set. Given
how Condorcet works, I don't believe there is a way to ensure the Schwartz
set always has only one member by manipulating the number of voters.
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to my categories above.
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and that we should stick with it.
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intended to be well into it by now.
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changes?
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.
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Jonathan Nieder jrnie...@gmail.com writes:
Russ Allbery wrote:
So, I think the questions before the TC are:
1. Should programs that make sense in the context of a typical DE (I
realize there's some fuzziness around this) all have desktop files?
Ah, I completely misread this before
the other should statements in Policy.
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package, or if you're just not interested in working
on it, you can ignore it, but you do need to merge patches if someone else
wants to work on it. That would probably be useful.
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of Policy that way. I do think that
is intended to say that the package maintainer should write one, and
that's the most common interpretation that I've seen in debian-mentors as
well. They're not *required*, no, but that's true of any should.
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than the traditional menu. (Personally, I think man pages are
more important than either, but man pages are also more work, and that's
to some extent personal preference.)
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Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Russ Allbery writes (Bug#741573: Two menu systems):
I do think that should in Policy is stronger than that, and I don't
think just weakening should for all of Policy is the right solution
to this bug. I also don't know if Bill would
packages. But I also really
*enjoy* that sort of exacting attention to detail, and while that's a nice
quality for us to encourage, it's not clear to me that we want to make
that the bar to entry. And that's how it's being perceived right now.
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that their
program appears in the menus, assume they're done, and move on, and the
menu quality in other integrations like fvwm will keep declining. I
believe this has been happening for the past couple of years, although
that's based on a gut feeling and I've not tried to acquire actual data.
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packages that
actually need a specific version to Build-Depend on that specific version,
while moving most of the archive to a new version by moving the Provides
and then scheduling binNMUs.
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As no one has replied, our next meeting will be next week on the 20th
at 17:00 UTC.
Just a reminder that the next meeting will start in under 40 minutes.
I unfortunately have a conflicting work meeting (that just got scheduled
this week) and won't be able to make it.
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between Bill and myself, so I don't think it's appropriate
for me to vote.
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that this outcome doesn't arise. Not to
try to write project rules to force other people who are less interested
in the work or who may not agree with the acceptability of the outcome to
do the work on our behalf.
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that I'm missing, but it may be best to respond there instead to
make it easier for those following the proposed GR discussion to see.
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Thorsten Glaser t...@mirbsd.de writes:
Russ Allbery dixit:
But when providing project-wide guidance, we have an obligation to
worry about the error conditions as well. If multiple logind
implementations do *not* materialize, or if they do materialize but
then people lose interest
I
what ballot to vote on.
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to be identical to mine, so
everything should be good.
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accept this amendment.
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at least now understand what
it means and what I would need to do with it as Policy Editor.
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today), I'll send that to this bug and
commit it to Git.
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!
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of issues and
decisions, and I fully expect that will apply to init systems as well once
we get through this rocky and controversial part.
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at this time on sysvinit
support beyond the jessie release. There are too many variables at
this point to know what the correct course of action will be.
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you to have to do that. I need to
produce an edited draft. I had company all weekend, social activity last
night, and work is on fire, so time and attention has been a bit short.
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Andreas Barth a...@ayous.org writes:
* Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) [140214 04:36]:
That's a much stronger statement than we've made about support for the
non-Linux ports in the past, where they're treated at most like another
release architecture, which means that packages that have never
from a security perspective to ship the version before that
change, and no one has done the work to reintroduce sysvinit support.
which is both rather a mouthful and only one of a variety of related
possible cases.
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Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com writes:
* Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) [140212 19:00]:
Packages should normally support the default Linux init system. There
I would drop the word Linux here - Packages should support our
default init systems.
If you do that then you have
take today to ensure
that it is an argument we don't have to have.
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contributors just damages our community without
accomplishing anything constructive.
I think you can make your point without referring to people with these
sorts of disparaging terms.
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like better.
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Andreas Barth a...@ayous.org writes:
* Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) [140212 19:00]:
Packages should normally support the default Linux init system. There
I would drop the word Linux here - Packages should support our default
init systems.
That's a much stronger statement than we've
our
advice since the current packaged logind doesn't require systemd as the
init system, and I see no reason for it to be.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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