Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-02-24 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 2/21/20 9:10 PM, Niko Tyni wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > on IRC recently you said: > > 23:24 < zigo> If you're just answering about update-alternatives, then you > haven't paid attention to what I >wrote in the bug report. > 23:25 < zigo> And IMO, missing the point ... > > As I

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-02-21 Thread Niko Tyni
(Sorry for the extensive quoting, see the end.) On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:18:53AM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > On 1/25/20 5:05 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: > > Control: tags -1 + wontfix > > > > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 17:29:29 +0100 Thomas Goirand wrote: > >> Package: systemd > >> Version: 244-3 >

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-31 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 1/30/20 8:18 PM, Anthony DeRobertis wrote: > On 1/30/20 7:02 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: >> This is normally solved if using pre-depends, which ensure that a >> package is configured before using it (and not just unpacked). > > Having everything using sysusers have versioned Pre-Depends on

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-30 Thread Josh Triplett
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 06:16:14PM +0100, Svante Signell wrote: > It is as simple as: > if ps -p1|grep -q "systemd"; then This is not the correct way to detect whether systemd is the current init system. You want: if test -d /run/systemd/system; then See

Re: Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-30 Thread Anthony DeRobertis
On 1/30/20 7:02 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote: This is normally solved if using pre-depends, which ensure that a package is configured before using it (and not just unpacked). Having everything using sysusers have versioned Pre-Depends on systemd | opensysusers would probably minimize the problem,

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-30 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud
Le jeudi, 30 janvier 2020, 00.28:36 h CET Thomas Goirand a écrit : > On 1/29/20 4:31 PM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > > Software installed as /bin/systemd-* , created within the systemd project, > > to fulfill systemd's view of the world, takes a reasonable hit on the > > binaries' namespace:

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-30 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 1/30/20 7:16 AM, Anthony DeRobertis wrote: > There are some more that come to mind: > >  * if we convert the exiting name to an alternative, there is the >    somewhat interesting work of actually changing a file over from an >    executable shipped in the package to an alternative, which

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-30 Thread Philip Hands
Svante Signell writes: > On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 12:23 -0800, Moritz Mühlenhoff wrote: >> Simon McVittie wrote: >> > I think we have a fairly good picture of the costs that would be >> > incurred from using alternatives: >> >> Plus in the case of opentmpfiles; a pile of security issues: systemd-

Re: Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Anthony DeRobertis
On 1/29/20 2:19 PM, Simon McVittie wrote: I think we have a fairly good picture of the costs that would be incurred from using alternatives: more interacting code paths to test, potentially more configurations that are technically possible but are not considered supported, and packages with

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 1/29/20 8:19 PM, Simon McVittie wrote: > - Linux systems not booted with systemd > (either no init system at all, like a typical schroot or Docker > container, or a non-systemd init system like sysvinit) This is very much one type of systems I have in mind, yes, and open{sysusers,tmpfiles}

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 1/29/20 4:49 PM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Le mercredi, 29 janvier 2020, 16.07:21 h CET Thomas Goirand a écrit : >> This reasoning can make sense, if we agree that we should use something >> else than /bin/systemd-sysusers and standardize on something else like >> /bin/sysusers. Then we

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Thomas Goirand
Hi Didier! Thanks for taking the time to reply. On 1/29/20 4:31 PM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Software installed as /bin/systemd-* , created within the systemd project, to > fulfill systemd's view of the world, takes a reasonable hit on the binaries' > namespace: "systemd-*". Really, we

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Svante Signell
On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 12:23 -0800, Moritz Mühlenhoff wrote: > Simon McVittie wrote: > > I think we have a fairly good picture of the costs that would be > > incurred from using alternatives: > > Plus in the case of opentmpfiles; a pile of security issues: systemd- > tmpfiles addresses a number of

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Moritz Mühlenhoff
Simon McVittie wrote: > I think we have a fairly good picture of the costs that would be > incurred from using alternatives: Plus in the case of opentmpfiles; a pile of security issues: systemd-tmpfiles addresses a number of complex races using low level primitives like openat() et al. or O_PATH,

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Matthias Klumpp
Am Mi., 29. Jan. 2020 um 20:39 Uhr schrieb Simon McVittie : > [...] > I think there are three categories of systems that it might make sense > to consider separately here. In ascending order of "amount of systemd": > > - non-Linux ports to which systemd does not intend to be portable (and > I

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Gunnar Wolf
Svante Signell dijo [Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 08:15:36PM +0100]: > > It's not like having two competing implementations causes much > > harm here.we technically _can_ allow any /bin/systemd-* to be > > provided by another implementation, that we should (actually, I think > > we should clearly _not_).

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Simon McVittie
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 11:18:53 +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > you don't seem to agree that it'd be ok for one to use > opensysuser instead of the systemd implementation if systemd is running. > I do not agree with this, and I believe it is up to the users to decide > what to do, even if we, as an

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Svante Signell
On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 12:24 -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > It's not like having two competing implementations causes much > harm here.we technically _can_ allow any /bin/systemd-* to be > provided by another implementation, that we should (actually, I think > we should clearly _not_). Of course

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Gunnar Wolf
Thomas Goirand dijo [Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 04:07:21PM +0100]: > This reasoning can make sense, if we agree that we should use something > else than /bin/systemd-sysusers and standardize on something else like > /bin/sysusers. Then we modify the Debian policy that /bin/sysusers is > *the* way to do

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Gunnar Wolf
I just want to subscribe with a very big +1 to what OdyX has said here: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud dijo [Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 04:31:09PM +0100]: > (...) > > So I am in the opinion that "as long as it's properly hooked in the > > packaging system and boot sequence" simply doesn't work in this case, as >

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud
Le mercredi, 29 janvier 2020, 16.07:21 h CET Thomas Goirand a écrit : > This reasoning can make sense, if we agree that we should use something > else than /bin/systemd-sysusers and standardize on something else like > /bin/sysusers. Then we modify the Debian policy that /bin/sysusers is > *the*

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Didier 'OdyX' Raboud
Le mercredi, 29 janvier 2020, 12.41:52 h CET Thomas Goirand a écrit : > I'm replying to you, but it goes also for Phillip Kern too, which had a > similar answer. Only words, I know, but let's try to answer technical points, not address people. "Talk to the space, not to individuals" > My idea

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-29 Thread Raphael Hertzog
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020, Thomas Goirand wrote: > This is exactly what should be avoided. It's perfectly fine to try to > use opensysusers with systemd if one wants. In fact, that's exactly the > best way we could do to be able to test it. Also, dpkg-divert is really > ugly, and something you use as

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-28 Thread Philipp Kern
On 1/28/2020 1:33 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: >> It'd need to be a script that the systemd maintainers feel reasonably >> confident will always run systemd's implementation when systemd is >> running, to avoid the mixed implementations issue. > > Not at all. Systemd maintainers have no say if

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-28 Thread Thomas Goirand
Anthony DeRobertis > It's different than awk because the decision the admin is making > ("which init system do I want to run"?) isn't done through > alternatives. So you can't use the alternatives system to coordinate > swapping all the different bits together. You are mixing things here. We

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-27 Thread Michael Biebl
Am 27.01.20 um 14:19 schrieb Michael Biebl: > Am 27.01.20 um 11:18 schrieb Thomas Goirand: > >> It is my view that what you're proposing would be a lot more work for on >> valid reason. > > opensysusers as implementation will always lag behind systemd-sysusers > and/or be incomplete, it might

Bug#947847: [Fwd: Re: Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives]

2020-01-27 Thread Svante Signell
--- Begin Message --- On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 11:01 -0500, Anthony DeRobertis wrote: > > Strikes me as there is a possible solution, though: have opensysusers > dpkg-divert it and put a shell script in its place that checks which > init system is running, and exec's the right sysusers based on

Re: Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-27 Thread Svante Signell
On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 11:01 -0500, Anthony DeRobertis wrote: > > Strikes me as there is a possible solution, though: have opensysusers > dpkg-divert it and put a shell script in its place that checks which > init system is running, and exec's the right sysusers based on that. It is as simple

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-27 Thread Michael Biebl
Am 27.01.20 um 11:18 schrieb Thomas Goirand: > It is my view that what you're proposing would be a lot more work for on > valid reason. opensysusers as implementation will always lag behind systemd-sysusers and/or be incomplete, it might even be incompatible. This has the potential to

Bug#947847: please install systemd-sysusers using update-alternatives

2020-01-27 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 1/25/20 5:05 PM, Michael Biebl wrote: > Control: tags -1 + wontfix > > Hi Thomas > > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 17:29:29 +0100 Thomas Goirand wrote: >> Package: systemd >> Version: 244-3 >> Severity: important >> >> Hi, >> >> As I'm packaging opensysusers (see ITP: #947846), I would like my >>