Re: Dispute resolution in Debian
Hi Sean, On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Sean Whitton wrote: > > So what you are proposing would correspond to the last of our > proposals -- try to remove the meditation role the TC presently has? I am sorry you read my proposal as curtailing TC's "territory". I merely meant to write that mediating between people and making good long-term technical decisions for the project are probably two different things. Your original email stated as much when you wrote that "[often] the conflict is not at the technical side." Kind regards Felix Lechner
Re: Dispute resolution in Debian
Hello, On Wed 29 Jul 2020 at 03:26AM -07, Felix Lechner wrote: > As a computer project, Debian's highest decision making body should > probably be a Technical Committee. Current committee members who like > to adjudicate more along human lines, under my proposal, may wish to > join the Community Team. So what you are proposing would correspond to the last of our proposals -- try to remove the meditation role the TC presently has? -- Sean Whitton signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Dispute resolution in Debian
Felix Lechner dijo [Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 03:26:00AM -0700]: > > Do you think it shouldn't have those other roles, maybe? That would > > correspond to the last of our proposals, I think. > > As a computer project, Debian's highest decision making body should > probably be a Technical Committee. Current committee members who like > to adjudicate more along human lines, under my proposal, may wish to > join the Community Team. However, most issues that come to the TC have a _strong_ human/social component. We cannot dissociate technical decisions with the emotional meaning they carry to project members. If technical excellence was the sole, or even main, requisite to become part of the Technical Committee, I would not have joined. Purely technical decisions are far from the norm; Debian as a project has quite good inner coherence (which means, project members have a quite compatible view of where they want to drive the project to), and when the TC is asked to participate, the divergence is usually very minor; we do deal with technical issues, but more than that, we deal with what does each decision ultimately mean. I don't think we can keep TC work 100% technical, or separate the inter-human part from the TC's work. > Debian needs more empathy. People are not logical like machines. They > are burdened by ideas and have fears and hopes. Plus, some do not > lightheartedly express how they feel. Solving conflicts in a unified > system brings all that out in one place, and makes peace. On my first reading and when I started replying, I had got your message basically upside down. So, basically - Yes, I (now) completely agree with you :-]
Re: Dispute resolution in Debian
Hi folks, On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 07:01:23PM -0700, Sean Whitton wrote: >On Sun 26 Jul 2020 at 07:59PM -07, Felix Lechner wrote: >> >> Like any court, the Community Team and Technical Committee should be >> able provide independent solutions of their own design. Ideally, the >> judges at the lower level, i.e. the Community Team, would be elected. > >I think we think of the community team as mostly about the CoC -- not >just strict violations but conformance with its spirit -- whereas the TC >is about disagreements which do not involve (or do not primarily >involve) CoC issues. In which case, the relationship between the two >would not really fit the model you suggest. Correct - we're *mostly* targeting very different areas. There *can* be some overlap, but I don't see this working as Felix suggests. No harm in proposing new ideas, though! -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -- James D. Nicoll
Re: Dispute resolution in Debian
Hi Sean, I hoped respected members like Sam would send additional ideas first, but then did not wish to keep you waiting. On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 7:01 PM Sean Whitton wrote: > > Do you think it shouldn't have those other roles, maybe? That would > correspond to the last of our proposals, I think. As a computer project, Debian's highest decision making body should probably be a Technical Committee. Current committee members who like to adjudicate more along human lines, under my proposal, may wish to join the Community Team. > I think we think of the community team as mostly about the CoC Please keep an open mind. The Community Team would quickly shed its image of a pronoun-wielding social reformer and become a universally respected arbiter of justice—especially when elected. They have the human touch. Debian needs more empathy. People are not logical like machines. They are burdened by ideas and have fears and hopes. Plus, some do not lightheartedly express how they feel. Solving conflicts in a unified system brings all that out in one place, and makes peace. Kind regards Felix Lechner
Re: Dispute resolution in Debian
Hello Felix, On Sun 26 Jul 2020 at 07:59PM -07, Felix Lechner wrote: > I would model access to conflict resolution on the US courts. There > should be two levels of jurisprudence: One is quick and easily like > small claims, the other is for appeals. Both can issue rulings that > bind everyone, including delegates and the DPL. > > Private side conversations should remain off-limits. They create an > incurable attack surface that lowers credibility. Decision makers who > expressed an opinion outside the official process must recuse > themselves. To seek their opinion, please file a case. Well, the TC is the closest thing we have to a court of last resort indeed, but I think its members hope that it could be other things as well -- most disputes in Debian do not require a court of last resort-style response. Do you think it shouldn't have those other roles, maybe? That would correspond to the last of our proposals, I think. > As Sean wrote, many problems at Debian are social in nature, I would The text it from the whole committee, I was just the messenger :) (and marga did most of the work) > make the Community Team the first legal instance before a party can > appeal to the Technical Committee. Cases at Community Team level > should be heard before a single member unless someone requests a > hearing en banc. That effectively makes the Technical Committee > Debian's Supreme Court (which hears all cases). In some way, this > resembles Sean's Proposal 2. > > Like any court, the Community Team and Technical Committee should be > able provide independent solutions of their own design. Ideally, the > judges at the lower level, i.e. the Community Team, would be elected. I think we think of the community team as mostly about the CoC -- not just strict violations but conformance with its spirit -- whereas the TC is about disagreements which do not involve (or do not primarily involve) CoC issues. In which case, the relationship between the two would not really fit the model you suggest. -- Sean Whitton signature.asc Description: PGP signature
