❦ 8 janvier 2017 10:49 -0500, Tom H :
>> The BSD ifconfig can do this with ease, and since ages, too. Why is
>> the Linux ifconfig _so_ different? Forking for the sake of it?
>
> Is there any relationship between current ifconfig on Linux and the
> BSDs, other than the name? I don't think so. T
❦ 8 janvier 2017 23:14 +0700, Alexey Salmin :
> I realize that net-tools version is long gone, but what about the GNU
> inetutils one? It's supported and is not Linux-specific. Maybe a new
> default implementation of ifconfig should be provided rather than
> simply discarding one from a basic i
On Sun, Jan 08, 2017 at 11:14:52PM +0700, Alexey Salmin wrote:
> At this time ifconfig seems to be the answer, no ip is visible on the BSDs
> horizon.
There's a patch set to add netlink to FreeBSD (I don't know how complete or
likely to be merged it is).
It even has in the public headers :)
Me
On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 08, 2017 at 10:49:23AM -0500, Tom H wrote:
>>
>> You can use
>>
>> ip a sh lo (if you have bash-completion installed, "a" will
>> complete to "addr" and "sh" will complete to "show")
>>
>> instead of "ip a show dev lo" above
On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 10:49 PM, Tom H wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Toni Mueller wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 09:01:51PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
>>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:30:26AM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>
>
Ifconfig has been deprecated; you should probably
On Sun, Jan 08, 2017 at 10:49:23AM -0500, Tom H wrote:
> You can use
>
> ip a sh lo (if you have bash-completion installed, "a" will
> complete to "addr" and "sh" will complete to "show")
>
> instead of "ip a show dev lo" above (still longer than "ifc though).
OTOH "ip a" is not longer than that.
On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Toni Mueller wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 09:01:51PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:30:26AM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>>> Ifconfig has been deprecated; you should probably use "ip a show
>>> dev lo" instad of the shorter and m
Hi,
I'm confused...
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 09:01:51PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:30:26AM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> >Ifconfig has been deprecated; you should probably use "ip a show
> >dev lo" instad of the shorter and more convenient "ifconfig lo"
On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 03:05:27PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Geert Stappers writes ("Re: Can we kill net-tools, please? (and this
> thread)"):
> > This e-mail is to request to leave this thread in the year 2016.
Happy New Year
> > We have concencus that the i
On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 03:24:40PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> The UI for ip(8) is absolutely appalling. I'd like Debian to continue to carry
> net-tools in parallel to iproute2 until such time as a third tool (with a
> decent UI) comes along and obsoletes iproute2.
...
> I have no problem wit
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 02:50:50PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> Recently the net-tools maintainer has forked the abandoned net-tools
> code base and started developing it again, after 15 years of stasis.
...
> Can we stop shipping two network configuration CLI tools in the default
> install?
The
Geert Stappers writes ("Re: Can we kill net-tools, please? (and this thread)"):
> This e-mail is to request to leave this thread in the year 2016.
> We have concencus that the install priority of net-tools should be lowered.
That has been done.
> It doesn't matter wha
On 31/12/16 09:23, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> On 14533 March 1977, Marco d'Itri wrote:
>
> dak override net-tools net optional
> I: Will change priority from important to optional
> Continue (y/N)? y
Thanks!
--
Martín Ferrari (Tincho)
On 14533 March 1977, Marco d'Itri wrote:
dak override net-tools net optional
I: Will change priority from important to optional
Continue (y/N)? y
dak override iproute2
iproute2 is in section 'net' at priority 'important'
Whoever wants net-tools can have it by simply installing it - or getting
it
On Fri, 2016-12-30 at 16:09 +0100, Bjørn Mork wrote:
> Fix it instead :)
I have submitted patches for kernel the network stack to improve QoS
for ADSL (ie where ATM cells are the link layer carrier). I'm not
terribly forgiving of the long drawn out initiation rites the kernel
dev's seem to demand
On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 12:13:54AM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> newsmas...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes ("(bogus mailing list message)"):
> > In my opinion ip provides all the things you are mentioning - what are
> > you missing? with -o as option the output is rather easy to parse.
>
> OK then, I
newsmas...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes ("(bogus mailing list message)"):
> In my opinion ip provides all the things you are mentioning - what are
> you missing? with -o as option the output is rather easy to parse.
OK then, I'll bite. I just got my `ip -o addr show' on my laptop to
produce, amo
Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Can we kill net-tools, please?"):
> I find ip's output hard to read. I have to take time to visually parse
> it every time, I can't just skim it. The ip -o output seems parseable,
> but no easily extensible (I'd prefer something l
Russell Stuart writes:
> On Thu, 2016-12-29 at 11:38 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> It certainly doesn't provide a man page that doesn't start with a BNF
>> syntax description. The iproute2 documentation is awful.
>>
>> Also, this is not at all easy to parse:
>>
>> # ip -o address
>> 1: loine
On Fri, 2016-12-30 at 10:42 +0100, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> > I bet the bash authors use that argument when they add another
> > feature. In reality all code has a cost.
>
> The only additional cost is the cost to check if the routing entry is
> a blackhole (while the check for anything else alrea
Andrey Rahmatullin writes:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:09:35PM +, Wookey wrote:
>> Yeah I think that mess is why I've never felt any need to move away
>> from ifconfig. I ran ip something a few times, went 'huh?' at the cryptic
>> output and stayed with the rather more civilised /sbin/ifconf
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 2:32 AM, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
>
> Do you really think that
>
> wlp3s0: flags=4163 mtu 1500
> inet 192.168.** netmask 255.255.255.0 broadcast 192.168.**
> inet6 fe80::** prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x20
> ether e4:**:ca txqueuelen 1000 (Ethernet)
❦ 30 décembre 2016 18:55 +1000, Russell Stuart :
>> When you need to decide how to route the packet, you need to do a
>> route lookup. If the route entry you find happens to be a blackhole
>> route, you drop the packet. You didn't do any additional work.
>
> I bet the bash authors use that argum
On Fri, 2016-12-30 at 07:51 +0100, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> The same work is not repeated over and over again. The kernel keeps
> the needed information in a structure to avoid parsing the packet
> several times.
Yes, it does indeed keep the offset of the headers for the various
protocol layers (li
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:09:35PM +, Wookey wrote:
> Yeah I think that mess is why I've never felt any need to move away
> from ifconfig. I ran ip something a few times, went 'huh?' at the cryptic
> output and stayed with the rather more civilised /sbin/ifconfig.
>
> So it seem that the outpu
❦ 29 décembre 2016 23:09 GMT, Wookey :
> I still don't know what a qdisc is or a default group, but it's a lot
> easier to find things I do recognise. Before this discussion I just
> saw it as a mysterious jumble of 10 things (after a set of things in
> CAPITALS that were somewhat mysterious too
❦ 30 décembre 2016 09:47 +1000, Russell Stuart :
> [0] Now I've started, the Linux kernel's networking stack is a mess.
> From the outside it looks like a mob of warning tribes, each
> developing with their own way of doing the same thing. To people
> not familiar with it this wil
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 09:01:51PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> > OK, you can remove the last half, but keep in mind there are plenty of
> > people who aren't using the exotic features provided by iproute2
> ... like two IPs on one iface.
Actually, that is only a problem if you re-use label
Russell Stuart writes:
> To me this thread looks like a bunch of old men grumbling that the
> young'ins have taken over what they created and turned the tools they
> were comfortable with into something unrecognisable. It's true - they
> did do that, and it's true it was unnecessary. They could
On Thu, 2016-12-29 at 11:38 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> It certainly doesn't provide a man page that doesn't start with a BNF
> syntax description. The iproute2 documentation is awful.
>
> Also, this is not at all easy to parse:
>
> # ip -o address
> 1: loinet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo\ vali
On 2016-12-29 11:38 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Bernd Zeimetz writes:
> > On 12/29/2016 07:04 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>
> Also, this is not at all easy to parse:
>
> # ip -o address
> 1: loinet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo\ valid_lft forever
> preferred_lft forever
> 1: loinet6 ::
Russ Allbery writes:
> Christian Seiler writes:
>> On 12/29/2016 08:38 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
>>> ip address also has one of the worst output UI decisions I've ever seen,
>>> namely this line:
>>>
>>> inet 192.168.0.195/24 brd 192.168.0.255 scope global dynamic wlan0
>>>
>>> specifically
Bjørn Mork writes:
> I believe that is a mis-interpretation of that RFC. The examples are
> all network addresses, but I don't think there is anything there that
> restricts the CIDR notation only to that class of IPv4 addresses.
> FWIW, the notation is much older and has been used for IPv4 add
Tollef Fog Heen writes:
> ]] Russ Allbery
>> It's possible that some other tool has abused CIDR notation in this way,
>> but ip is still the only place I ever see it. It's definitely not common.
> I picked a few arbitrary networking platforms:
Meh. Okay, thanks, I'm apparently just not well-
[Russ Allbery]
> ip address also has one of the worst output UI decisions I've ever seen,
> namely this line:
>
> inet 192.168.0.195/24 brd 192.168.0.255 scope global dynamic wlan0
>
> specifically "192.168.0.195/24", which is notation (IIRC) invented by this
> command, used nowhere else in
]] Russ Allbery
> It's possible that some other tool has abused CIDR notation in this way,
> but ip is still the only place I ever see it. It's definitely not common.
I picked a few arbitrary networking platforms:
From
http://www.juniper.net/techpubs/software/junos-es/junos-es93/junos-es-jseri
❦ 29 décembre 2016 12:24 -0800, Russ Allbery :
> No, I'm not talking about CIDR notation, which of course is long-standing
> and familiar. I'm talking about randomly appending a CIDR suffix to
> something that is obviously *not* the base for that CIDR block.
>
> In other words, 192.168.0.0/24 i
Russ Allbery, on Thu 29 Dec 2016 12:24:28 -0800, wrote:
> >> specifically "192.168.0.195/24", which is notation (IIRC) invented by this
> >> command,
>
> It's possible that some other tool has abused CIDR notation in this way,
> but ip is still the only place I ever see it. It's definitely not co
Christian Seiler writes:
> On 12/29/2016 08:38 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> ip address also has one of the worst output UI decisions I've ever seen,
>> namely this line:
>>
>> inet 192.168.0.195/24 brd 192.168.0.255 scope global dynamic wlan0
>>
>> specifically "192.168.0.195/24", which is no
On 12/29/2016 08:38 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> It certainly doesn't provide a man page that doesn't start with a BNF
> syntax description. The iproute2 documentation is awful.
Ack.
> Also, this is not at all easy to parse:
>
> # ip -o address
> 1: loinet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo\ vali
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Also, this is not at all easy to parse:
>
> # ip -o address
> 1: loinet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo\ valid_lft forever
> preferred_lft forever
> 1: loinet6 ::1/128 scope host \ valid_lft forever preferred_lft
> forever
> 3:
Bernd Zeimetz writes:
> On 12/29/2016 07:04 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>> For stretch+1, what I'd like to see is a tool that a) works b) has
>> output that's nice for a human to read and c) has output that can be
>> easily processed by programs. None of the current tools comes anywhere
>> near. Bo
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 08:17:01PM +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> In my opinion ip provides all the things you are mentioning - what are
> you missing? with -o as option the output is rather easy to parse.
I find ip's output hard to read. I have to take time to visually parse
it every time, I can't
On 12/29/2016 07:04 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> For stretch+1, what I'd like to see is a tool that a) works b) has
> output that's nice for a human to read and c) has output that can be
> easily processed by programs. None of the current tools comes anywhere
> near. Bonus points if the command line
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:30:26AM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> OK, you can remove the last half, but keep in mind there are plenty of
> people who aren't using the exotic features provided by iproute2, and
> are very happy using the more convenient and shorter BSD-style
> commands. If you're goi
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:30:26AM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>Ifconfig has been deprecated; you should probably use "ip a show
>dev lo" instad of the shorter and more convenient "ifconfig lo"
... and often wrong
> OK, you can remove the last half, but keep in mind there are plenty of
> p
On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 01:38:48PM +1000, Russell Stuart wrote:
> I don't know whether "crap" is the right word, but it is certainly
> baggage from a bygone era. "Baggage" here means that if we are nice to
> our users (ie, Debian sysadmins), we should not force them to know two
> tools. We only h
On Dec 26, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> I am currently the Debian maintainer for net-tools, but note that I have
> not forked, nor I am developing net-tools. Upstream got active again,
> somehow.
Thank you for your clarification.
I think that we have a consensus about this: can you switch to optional
Hi,
On 29.12.2016 12:49, Marco d'Itri wrote:
>> As long as there is still a way to have working "netstat" and "ifconfig"
>> commands, that is fine.
> I do not think that anybody sane wants to remove the package from the
> archive: the idea is to stop using it in script in other packages since
On Dec 29, Simon Richter wrote:
> As long as there is still a way to have working "netstat" and "ifconfig"
> commands, that is fine.
I do not think that anybody sane wants to remove the package from the
archive: the idea is to stop using it in script in other packages since
iproute is a) better
Hi,
On 28.12.2016 12:08, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>> Does iproute work on Non-Linux kernels?
> No, but net-tools doesn't work on non-Linux either :)
> inetutils tools do, however.
As long as there is still a way to have working "netstat" and "ifconfig"
commands, that is fine.
I often work in mi
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 9:08 PM, Wookey wrote:
I am (vaguely) aware of
> something caled 'ip' which does a similar job but have no idea how to
> use it.
Here are the few sub-commands I use regularly. Their abbreviated form
and unabridged form, and the legacy command:
ip a
ip address show
ifconf
On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 12:08:06 +0100, Samuel Thibault
wrote:
>Marc Haber, on Wed 28 Dec 2016 11:33:13 +0100, wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 14:50:50 +0100, m...@linux.it (Marco d'Itri) wrote:
>> >With this post I want to encourage fellow maintainers to stop depending
>> >on net-tools, which is obsol
Marc Haber, on Wed 28 Dec 2016 11:33:13 +0100, wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 14:50:50 +0100, m...@linux.it (Marco d'Itri) wrote:
> >With this post I want to encourage fellow maintainers to stop depending
> >on net-tools, which is obsolete software and has been replaced long ago
> >by iproute.
>
>
On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 14:50:50 +0100, m...@linux.it (Marco d'Itri) wrote:
>With this post I want to encourage fellow maintainers to stop depending
>on net-tools, which is obsolete software and has been replaced long ago
>by iproute.
Does iproute work on Non-Linux kernels?
Greetings
Marc
--
-
On 2016-12-26.14:50, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> Can we stop shipping two network configuration CLI tools in the default
> install?
> net-tools has long been deprecated and should not have important
> priority, for a start.
Yes, please!
FWIW, Red Hat did this in 2014 for RHEL7. Discussion here:
https
On Wed, 2016-12-28 at 03:08 +, Wookey wrote:
> If we are supposed to change to something newer these days
We've been discussing doing that for 8 years now:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/03/msg00780.html
> a pointer to a 'conversion' document would be nice.
https://wiki.
On 2016-12-27 09:15 +0100, Andrew Shadura wrote:
> While I can certainly agree parsing net-tools output isn't a good idea, please
> stop suggesting we should remove the package from Debian. It is still useful
> and many people myself included use it.
Right, I use it most days. For those of us of a
Russell Stuart wrote:
> On Tue, 2016-12-27 at 01:02 -0800, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > The rest of net-tools aside (which have sensible replacements), what
> > replaces netstat in the absence of net-tools?
>
> /bin/ss, which is part of iproute2
Thanks, that looks perfect, and it even accepts many of
On Tue, 2016-12-27 at 01:02 -0800, Josh Triplett wrote:
> The rest of net-tools aside (which have sensible replacements), what
> replaces netstat in the absence of net-tools?
/bin/ss, which is part of iproute2
It's probably wise to 'dpkg -L iproute2 | grep bin/'. They are the
tools provided by t
Josh Triplett writes:
> Geert Stappers wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 02:50:50PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
>> > ifconfig, route, etc...
>>
>> From https://packages.debian.org/stretch/arm64/net-tools/filelist
>>
>> * /bin/netstat
>
> The rest of net-tools aside (which have sensible replacemen
Geert Stappers wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 02:50:50PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > ifconfig, route, etc...
>
> From https://packages.debian.org/stretch/arm64/net-tools/filelist
>
> * /bin/netstat
The rest of net-tools aside (which have sensible replacements), what
replaces netstat in the
On 27 Dec 2016 08:40, "Andreas Henriksson" wrote:
Hello,
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 09:55:14PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:
> Thing what Andreas Henriksson is doing
> in https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/12/msg00619.html
> providing patches how to get rit of net-tools,
> is what will make
Hello,
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 09:55:14PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:
> Thing what Andreas Henriksson is doing
> in https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/12/msg00619.html
> providing patches how to get rit of net-tools,
> is what will make the killing of net-tools more easy.
I personally do
On Mon, 2016-12-26 at 19:31 +0100, Andreas Henriksson wrote:
[bind9.patch]
> --- bind9-9.10.3.dfsg.P4/debian/bind9.init2016-05-04 01:40:36.0
> +0200
> +++ bind9-9.10.3.dfsg.P4.new/debian/bind9.init2016-12-26
> 16:38:27.153860242 +0100
> @@ -33,7 +33,7 @@
> else
> IF
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 02:50:50PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> ifconfig, route, etc...
From https://packages.debian.org/stretch/arm64/net-tools/filelist
* /bin/netstat
* /sbin/ifconfig
* /sbin/ipmaddr
* /sbin/iptunnel
* /sbin/mii-tool
* /sbin/nameif
* /sbin/plipconfig
* /sbin/rarp
* /s
* Andreas Henriksson [2016-12-26 19:31]:
> bitlbee-common.config uses netstat.
>
> Dependency is thus valid. Could be ported to 'ss' from iproute2.
Already discussed here:
https://github.com/bitlbee/bitlbee/pull/91
Cheers Jochen
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 06:57:26PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> # Broken Depends:
> ifupdown: ifupdown [kfreebsd-amd64 kfreebsd-i386]
Indeed, it's necessary for kFreeBSD where there's no iproute2. Luckily
it doesn't parse the output, but I guess I have to check carefully that
everything sti
Hello,
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 06:57:26PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> For the record:
[...]
There's quite alot of cruft around still. I went through the
depends list and my notes/patches are attached.
(Can also be browsed at https://fatal.se/tmp/rm-net-tools/ for now.)
Help with filing bu
On 26/12/16 11:43, Steve Cotton wrote:
> Given that the transition-freeze for Stretch was on Nov 5th, I think this
> update should be kept out of Testing until Stretch has been released.
Actually, I made this update in September 2015. Yesterday I added a
debian/NEWS file to warn users about the p
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 10:57:11AM -0300, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> I agree wholeheartedly, and thought about retiring it in the past, but
> it proved impossible at the time.
>
> Maybe the output format change will make people finally switch to
> something less awful.
Given that the transition-free
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 03:32:18PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > For the record:
> >
> > # Broken Depends:
> [...]
> > # Broken Build-Depends:
>
> If by "broken" you wanted to list all packages that would be broken if
> net-tools was dropped, then the lists are incomplete
It's output of `da
Quoting Jonas Smedegaard (2016-12-26 15:32:18)
> Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin (2016-12-26 14:57:26)
> > For the record:
> >
> > # Broken Depends:
> [...]
> > # Broken Build-Depends:
>
> If by "broken" you wanted to list all packages that would be broken if
> net-tools was dropped, then the lists a
Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin (2016-12-26 14:57:26)
> For the record:
>
> # Broken Depends:
[...]
> # Broken Build-Depends:
If by "broken" you wanted to list all packages that would be broken if
net-tools was dropped, then the lists are incomplete: At least
sugar-presence-service (different from s
On 26/12/16 10:50, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> ifconfig, route, etc...
>
> Recently the net-tools maintainer has forked the abandoned net-tools
> code base and started developing it again, after 15 years of stasis.
I am currently the Debian maintainer for net-tools, but note that I have
not forked, no
For the record:
# Broken Depends:
argus: argus-server [amd64 arm64 armel armhf hurd-i386 i386 mips mips64el
mipsel powerpc ppc64el s390x]
bind9: bind9
bitlbee: bitlbee-common
chkrootkit: chkrootkit [amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 kfreebsd-amd64
kfreebsd-i386 mips mips64el mipsel powerpc ppc64el s3
ifconfig, route, etc...
Recently the net-tools maintainer has forked the abandoned net-tools
code base and started developing it again, after 15 years of stasis.
As a design choice he has changed the output of most commands, hence
breaking many scripts parsing their output.
With this post I wa
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