On Mon, 8 Sep 2014, Simon McVittie wrote:
systemd is compatible with LSB (i.e. sysvinit) init scripts. So is Upstart.
If LSB were == sysvinit, and not just a subset of it, we’d
have had *much* less troubles at work during the forced move
to insserv even with file-rc.
(Spoiler: cow-orkers,
On Sun, Sep 07, 2014 at 11:12:01PM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
Surely, it should be an OPT-IN choice, not an OPT-OUT one? I'm talking
upgrades here, not new installs.
I have no clue why we are continuing to discuss this. The ctte
resolution says that the default init system for Linux
Adam Borowski wrote:
Noel Torres env...@rolamasao.org writes:
So, in your POV, forcing millions of sysadmins out there to take
extra pain to
keep their systems running as they expect is the way to go?
I think it's fair to expect the few hundred
* Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org, 2014-09-08, 10:58:
Excuse me? Are you trying to use the fact that you and your stupid
friends are trolling about systemd all day long in order to justify
your own rants?
And I thought you couldn’t get any lower. You have a very good shovel.
OTOH, a
On Sun, Sep 07, 2014 at 02:02:33PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
On the other hand, a non-GNOME wheezy user SHALL not
be upgraded to systemd, true.
That is contadicted by:
https://lists.debian.org/20140907151102.go21...@smurf.noris.de
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On 09/08/2014 at 02:05 AM, Helmut Grohne wrote:
On Sun, Sep 07, 2014 at 11:12:01PM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
Surely, it should be an OPT-IN choice, not an OPT-OUT one? I'm
talking upgrades here, not new installs.
I have no clue why we
On Sunday, 7 de September de 2014 16:11:02 Matthias Urlichs escribió:
Hi,
Chris Bannister:
If technically feasible, that would be a far better safety net (just
tell people to boot with init=/sbin/sysvinit if they run into a
problem) than an oh dear, it's so dangerous that we don't
On 08/09/14 14:44, Noel Torres wrote:
Example: having EMC Networker server softare for backups in a sysvinit
machine
is (relatively) easy, because the scripts for starting and stopping the
services are (quite) standard (but very complicated) sysv scripts.
systemd is compatible with LSB
On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 02:33:04PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
Ok, so let's quantify the view of sysadmins somehow.
This is a complete waste of time and I expect better of you in particular.
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On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 09:39:05AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Note also that a few of those things (udev, adduser, and
libdevmapper1.02.1 for example) are likely to be on any non-chroot system
already since they're either dependencies of other things (such as grub
for libdevmapper1.02.1) or
On Sun, Sep 07, 2014 at 02:02:33PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
On the other hand, a non-GNOME wheezy user SHALL not
be upgraded to systemd, true.
SHOULD not, but currently is:
.--==[ dist-upgrade from a bare wheezy deboostrap ]
The following NEW packages will be installed:
acl
Am 09.09.2014 01:37, schrieb Adam Borowski:
This is easily fixable by adding such a dependency, or making things simpler
by dropping the sysvinit-core package at all, returning its contents back to
sysvinit. In fact, this whole split was done in a NMU by a systemd
maintainer, so no wonders
On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 02:05:52AM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
Am 09.09.2014 01:37, schrieb Adam Borowski:
This is easily fixable by adding such a dependency, or making things simpler
by dropping the sysvinit-core package at all, returning its contents back to
sysvinit. In fact, this whole
Zack Weinberg za...@panix.com wrote:
Matthias Urlichs wrote:
I also expect the Jessie upgrade to switch to systemd. Because,
frankly and strictly IMHO, doing anything else makes no sense
whatsoever.
This is exactly the thing I don't agree with.
I think _new installs_ of Jessie should use
On Sat, 6 Sep 2014 15:56:23 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
Marc Haber:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:12:50 +0200, Svante Signell
svante.sign...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude}
Hi,
Zack Weinberg:
I think this strategy is positively _necessary_ in order to ensure
that systems currently running Wheezy can safely be upgraded to
Jessie. There are simply too many wacky configurations out there; it
If we do decide that a default switch is unsafe for too many systems,
On Sun, Sep 07, 2014 at 12:18:08PM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Hi,
Zack Weinberg:
I think this strategy is positively _necessary_ in order to ensure
that systems currently running Wheezy can safely be upgraded to
Jessie. There are simply too many wacky configurations out there; it
On Sun, 7 Sep 2014, Andreas Metzler wrote:
I think that is terrible idea, because it makes us release a system
that is lot less tested than it should be. If only fresh installs were
Nonsense. sysvinit must continue to work anyway, for various
reasons (upgrades, kfreebsd, the TC decision).
On 2014-09-07, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
Surely, it should be an OPT-IN choice, not an OPT-OUT one? I'm talking
upgrades here, not new installs.
I had my systems painfully and transparantly upgraded to systemd. And
I'm happy it happens. Please keep it this way.
I do
On 2014-09-07, Sune Vuorela nos...@vuorela.dk wrote:
I had my systems painfully and transparantly upgraded to systemd. And
I'm happy it happens. Please keep it this way.
I apparantly like pain. or maybe s/ful/less/ is the appropriate reading.
/Sune
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]] Marc Haber
On Sat, 6 Sep 2014 15:56:23 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
Marc Haber:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:12:50 +0200, Svante Signell
svante.sign...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Thus, unless the user explicitly
Hi,
On Samstag, 6. September 2014, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
No. I expect them all to continue running just peachy fine and seamlessly.
I also expect the Jessie upgrade to switch to systemd. Because, frankly and
strictly IMHO, doing anything else makes no sense whatsoever.
On the other hand,
Hi,
Chris Bannister:
If technically feasible, that would be a far better safety net (just tell
people to boot with init=/sbin/sysvinit if they run into a problem) than
an oh dear, it's so dangerous that we don't even install it by default
message. :-/
Surely, it should be an OPT-IN
On Sun, 07 Sep 2014 15:30:11 +0200, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no
wrote:
You make the assumption that there's not been an tries to resolve this,
which is wrong. As for security, well, I have a keyscript that unlocks
my boot drive just fine, but handled through initramfs, not systemd.
Those tries
On Friday, 5 de September de 2014 21:36:43 Ansgar Burchardt escribió:
Nothing prevents you from a, installing systemd-shim from Jessie before
running apt-get dist-upgrade or b, using apt-get dist-upgrade upstart.
I'm fairly sure I saw this question also answered on -user@ once or
twice times
On Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:12:50 +0200, Svante Signell
svante.sign...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude} subsystem not
to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the details of which I personally
am
On 2014-09-05 23:50 +0200, Russ Allbery wrote:
Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl writes:
systemd also pulls in a large amount of bloat (IIRC someone mentioned
100ish packages in wheezy vs 146 in current jessie). Purging those is
nontrivial, as some had their priority bumped up.
That seems
Noel Torres env...@rolamasao.org writes:
On Friday, 5 de September de 2014 21:36:43 Ansgar Burchardt escribió:
Nothing prevents you from a, installing systemd-shim from Jessie before
running apt-get dist-upgrade or b, using apt-get dist-upgrade upstart.
I'm fairly sure I saw this question
On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 11:12:35AM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
Noel Torres env...@rolamasao.org writes:
So, in your POV, forcing millions of sysadmins out there to take extra pain
to
keep their systems running as they expect is the way to go?
I think it's fair to expect the few
Hi,
Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl writes:
Ok, so let's quantify the view of sysadmins somehow. This can actually
be done in a meaningful way: let's count posts on places where
technically-minded folks gather.
No, this is absolutely not meaningful. To deduce anything from this, you
would
On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 03:02:06PM +0200, Axel Wagner wrote:
Moreover, you would need to not count posts, but unique posters, which
will be a very hard to get, because in a lot of flames there are people
who get one spam-address after the other, when they get blocked, which
would further skew
Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl writes:
Ok, so let's quantify the view of sysadmins somehow. This can actually
be done in a meaningful way: let's count posts on places where
technically-minded folks gather. There's plenty of minor blogs that are
biased, but let's choose big sites where we
Hi,
Marc Haber:
On Fri, 05 Sep 2014 15:12:50 +0200, Svante Signell
svante.sign...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude} subsystem not
to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the details of
Hi,
Adam Borowski:
Thus, Slashdot post count is more meaningful than, say, counting posts
here on unmoderated debian-devel.
That doesn't change the fact that most people who are OK with systemd have,
to put it mildly, better things to do these days than to participate in yet
another
Hi,
Noel Torres:
Do you think it is realistic to expect them all reading some obscure
documentation _before_ upgrading?
No. I expect them all to continue running just peachy fine and seamlessly.
I also expect the Jessie upgrade to switch to systemd. Because, frankly and
strictly IMHO, doing
Most people who are not OK with systemd have better things to than try to persuade debian-devel that the debian prject's
transition to it is problematic, and at more than just the implementation level.
See how much fun it is to belittle? See how good it feels?
More important than numbers is
Matthias Urlichs wrote:
I also expect the Jessie upgrade to switch to systemd. Because,
frankly and strictly IMHO, doing anything else makes no sense
whatsoever.
This is exactly the thing I don't agree with.
I think _new installs_ of Jessie should use systemd as init (by
default, anyway),
Hi,
h...@shaw.ca:
Most people who are not OK with systemd have better things to than try to
persuade debian-devel that the debian prject's transition to it is
problematic, and at more than just the implementation level.
By now, I would sure hope so.
More important than numbers is content.
Sven Joachim svenj...@gmx.de writes:
On 2014-09-05 23:50 +0200, Russ Allbery wrote:
That seems much higher than I believe is the case. Wasn't there a
detailed analysis of this posted a while back? My vague recollection
was a number more on the order of a quarter of that, and with most of
On Sep 06, Sven Joachim svenj...@gmx.de wrote:
Here's what I get when replacing sysvinit-core with systemd-sysv in my
pbuilder chroot:
To be fair, most of these packages (adduser, kmod, udev and their
dependencies, for a start) would be installed anyway on a normal system
which is not a
On Sun, 07 Sep 2014 00:03:29 +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
On Sep 06, Sven Joachim svenj...@gmx.de wrote:
Here's what I get when replacing sysvinit-core with systemd-sysv in my
pbuilder chroot:
To be fair, most of these packages (adduser, kmod, udev and their
dependencies, for a start) would
Hi,
Noel Torres:
* superior: plain no
Your opinion. Mine is hell yes. Both opinions are completely worthless,
absent any reasoning.
Could we please stop the systemd is good vs. systemd is bad bashing?
In any case, IMHO a system that's been installed with wheezy, and
then upgraded to jessie,
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Hi,
Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude} subsystem not
to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the details of which I personally
am not at all interested in), a dist-upgrade should do so.
How? All efforts so
2014-09-05 15:12 GMT+02:00 Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com:
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
Hi,
Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude} subsystem not
to switch to systemd (by whatever means, the details of which I personally
am not at all
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 16:07 +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
2014-09-05 15:12 GMT+02:00 Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com:
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
How? All efforts so far and bugs reported are being brought down
actively.
Install systemd-shim +
Matthias Urlichs wrote:
In any case, IMHO a system that's been installed with wheezy, and
then upgraded to jessie, should be identical to a system installed with
jessie in the first place.
That is nothing but wrong. A system upgraded will (very probably) have a
different configuration - because
2014-09-05 17:23 GMT+02:00 Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com:
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 16:07 +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
2014-09-05 15:12 GMT+02:00 Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com:
On Fri, 2014-09-05 at 14:20 +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
How? All efforts so far and bugs
On Fri, Sep 05, 2014 at 07:25:13PM +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
And proposing a solution for a systemd-free (advanced) menu item in the
installer will be accepted too?
If someone stands up and does the work, I guess so - but doing that is
a non-trivial task, since systemd is seeded by
Hi,
Daniel Leidert:
Matthias Urlichs wrote:
In any case, IMHO a system that's been installed with wheezy, and
then upgraded to jessie, should be identical to a system installed with
jessie in the first place.
That is nothing but wrong. [...]
Your argument is only reasonable for a plain
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
Hi,
Noel Torres:
* superior: plain no
Your opinion. Mine is hell yes. Both opinions are completely worthless,
absent any reasoning.
Could we please stop the systemd is good vs. systemd is bad bashing?
In any
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On 09/05/2014 at 03:44 PM, Cameron Norman wrote:
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, Matthias Urlichs
matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
Thus, unless the user explicitly tells the apt{-get,itude}
subsystem not to switch to systemd (by whatever means,
Cameron Norman camerontnor...@gmail.com writes:
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
In any case, IMHO a system that's been installed with wheezy, and
then upgraded to jessie, should be identical to a system installed with
jessie in the first place.
Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl writes:
systemd also pulls in a large amount of bloat (IIRC someone mentioned
100ish packages in wheezy vs 146 in current jessie). Purging those is
nontrivial, as some had their priority bumped up.
That seems much higher than I believe is the case. Wasn't
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