date:20061017

Salut fred,

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:09:42AM +0200, fred wrote:
 Je voudrais utiliser pour mes propres programmes, une lib en static du
^que
 paquet libvtk5. Seulement, ce paquet ne contient que des libs dynamiques.
 Quelle est la raison ?

La raison est que tu dois utiliser le paquet libvtk5-dev.

 Dois-je recontruire le paquet en (essayant) de préciser une option pour
 contruire cette lib en static ?
  ^que

C'est déjà fait dans libvtk5-dev.

Cheers,
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Re: libxml2 et libxslt

On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 11:08:08PM +0200, Aurélien GÉRÔME wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 09:22:25PM +0200, Laurent wrote:
  Comment récupérer le résultat du parsing d'un fichier XML via un fichier 
  XSL à 
  l'aide des deux bibliothèques mentionnées en objet ??
 
 Ce n'est pas la bonne liste pour poser ta question, cf. le post
 de Pierre.
 
 En outre, lorsque tu poseras à nouveau ta question, essaye d'être
 un peu plus précis, car il est difficile de comprendre ce que tu
 souhaites réaliser. Les deux bibliothèques que tu mentionnes sont
 écrites en C et ne présentent donc pas d'API objet comme tu le
 souhaites. Tu devras donc pour cela te tourner vers une abstraction
 sur lesdites bibliothèques en C++, en Python, en Ruby, en OCAML,
 ou que sais-je encore...

Il paraît que je n'ai pas compris ta question, objet = sujet du
mail d'après certains... Pour changer ma réponse, si tu veux des
exemples en C, regarde du côté de [1].

Cheers,

[1] http://www.xmlsoft.org/examples/index.html
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Re: lib static du paquet libvtk5

2006-10-17 Thread Pierre Habouzit

Le mar 17 octobre 2006 12:48, fred a écrit :
 Aurélien GÉRÔME [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
  Salut fred,
 
  On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:09:42AM +0200, fred wrote:
  Je voudrais utiliser pour mes propres programmes, une lib en
  static du
 
 
  ^que
 
  paquet libvtk5. Seulement, ce paquet ne contient que des libs
  dynamiques. Quelle est la raison ?
 
  La raison est que tu dois utiliser le paquet libvtk5-dev.

 Ce paquet est déjà installé sur ma babasse.
 La lib que je veux utiliser est libvtkIO.
 Or celle-ci n'existe qu'en dynamique, puisqu'il n'y a que libvtkIO.so
 et point de libvktIO.a.

 Où me goure-je ?

je pense que tu ne te trompes pas, la lib statique n'est pas buildée 
dans le paquet Debian visiblement. c'est la vie ;)
-- 
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Re: lib static du paquet libvtk5

2006-10-17 Thread Jérôme Marant

Le mardi 17 octobre 2006 12:48, fred a écrit :
 Aurélien GÉRÔME [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
 
  Salut fred,
 
  On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:09:42AM +0200, fred wrote:
  Je voudrais utiliser pour mes propres programmes, une lib en static du
  ^que
  paquet libvtk5. Seulement, ce paquet ne contient que des libs dynamiques.
  Quelle est la raison ?
 
  La raison est que tu dois utiliser le paquet libvtk5-dev.
 Ce paquet est déjà installé sur ma babasse.
 La lib que je veux utiliser est libvtkIO.
 Or celle-ci n'existe qu'en dynamique, puisqu'il n'y a que libvtkIO.so et
 point de libvktIO.a.
 
 Où me goure-je ?

En principe, les .a se trouvent dans le paquet -dev.
Dans le cas présent, ce n'est pas le cas. C'est même pour ça
qu'il peut se payer le luxe d'être Architecture: all.

Il faut recompiler libvtk5 toi-même, dans le cas où l'auteur
ait effectivement prévu de produire un .a .

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Jérôme Marant


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Re: lib static du paquet libvtk5

2006-10-17 Thread Thomas Clavier

fred a écrit :
 Je voudrais utiliser pour mes propres programmes, une lib en static du
 paquet libvtk5. Seulement, ce paquet ne contient que des libs dynamiques.
 Quelle est la raison ?

Si la lib est utilisé par plusieurs applications, et c'est quand même le
rôle d'une librairie, et que l'on découvre un bug voir une faille dans
la lib, il est préférable de ne recompilé que la lib et pas les
nombreuses applications.

Pourquoi vouloir compiler en static alors que debian fournit un outils
extrêmement simple de gestion des dépendances ?

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Lille Sans Fil  http://www.lillesansfil.org
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Re: lib static du paquet libvtk5

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 12:48:03PM +0200, fred wrote:
 Aurélien GÉRÔME [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
  La raison est que tu dois utiliser le paquet libvtk5-dev.
 Ce paquet est déjà installé sur ma babasse.
 La lib que je veux utiliser est libvtkIO.
 Or celle-ci n'existe qu'en dynamique, puisqu'il n'y a que libvtkIO.so et
 point de libvktIO.a.

OK, c'est déjà plus précis désormais...

 Où me goure-je ?

Visiblement, non. Je te suggère d'envoyer un rapport de bug sur
libvtk5-dev à ce propos. :)

Cheers,
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Re: lib static du paquet libvtk5

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 04:08:37PM +0200, Thomas Clavier wrote:
 Si la lib est utilisé par plusieurs applications, et c'est quand même le
 rôle d'une librairie, et que l'on découvre un bug voir une faille dans
 la lib, il est préférable de ne recompilé que la lib et pas les
 nombreuses applications.
 
 Pourquoi vouloir compiler en static alors que debian fournit un outils
 extrêmement simple de gestion des dépendances ?

Pour de l'embarqué, pour démarrer le binaire en environment hostile
sans les dépendances, etc...

Pourquoi les gens font des fautes d'orthographe, alors que c'est si
simple de faire des efforts ? ;P

Cheers,
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Re: lib static du paquet libvtk5

2006-10-17 Thread Pierre Habouzit

Le mar 17 octobre 2006 19:29, fred a écrit :
 Aurélien GÉRÔME [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
  On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 04:08:37PM +0200, Thomas Clavier wrote:
  Pourquoi vouloir compiler en static alors que debian fournit un
  outils extrêmement simple de gestion des dépendances ?
 
  Pour de l'embarqué, pour démarrer le binaire en environment
  hostile sans les dépendances, etc...
 
  Pourquoi les gens font des fautes d'orthographe, alors que c'est si
  simple de faire des efforts ? ;P

 J'en ai une autre.
 Je compile mes codes avec le compilo intel.
 Je n'ai pas envie de pourrir ma etch avec un LD_LIBRARY_PATH qui
 pointe dans des endroits peu recommandables (du point de vue Debian,
 j'entends ;-)

attention les yeux:

  -Wl,--rpath -Wl,$(TON_PATH_DEGUEU)

ça permet de pas avoir besoin de toucher au LD_LIBRARY_PATH, après bien 
sur, ça rend ton binaire pas très portable.

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Re: lib static du paquet libvtk5

2006-10-17 Thread Mike Hommey

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 08:09:26PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 attention les yeux:
 
   -Wl,--rpath -Wl,$(TON_PATH_DEGUEU)

-Wl,--rpath,$(LE_PATH_DEGUEU) devrait pouvoir marcher aussi

 ça permet de pas avoir besoin de toucher au LD_LIBRARY_PATH, après bien 
 sur, ça rend ton binaire pas très portable.

s/portable/déplaçable/ ;)


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Re: lib static du paquet libvtk5

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 08:35:31PM +0200, fred wrote:
 flags, et des libs statiques pour mes propres codes. Je ne vois donc
 qu'une façon pas jolie-jolie de le faire, à savoir les compiler dans mon
 coin, et les installer à la mano. À moins de demander au mainteneur de
 construire un paquet libvkt5-static. Ça se fait, ça ?

Dans un mail précédent, je t'ai dit ceci:

  Je te suggère d'envoyer un rapport de bug sur libvtk5-dev à
  ce propos.

Oui, ça se fait. Tu peux envoyer un rapport de bug sur le paquet
libvtk5-dev en sévérité wishlist en demandant l'inclusion des
bibliothèques statiques dans ledit paquet.

Cheers,
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seahorse (gnome, gpg) encryption error

2006-10-17 Thread Erle Pereira

Been having problems with Seahorse and encryption from gnome. (Nautilus,
Gedit, Evolution)

When I try to sign, I get the error Couldn't Load Keys

When I try to Encrypt, it loads the keys for selection and then exists
when I try to encrypt without and error. 

It was working before I upgraded from sarge to testing, Is anyone else
facing this same problem? I created a new user to test out any config
issues, but the very same problem persists.

In Evolution I get the message : Broken Pipe, you might need to select
different options, when I try to send mail, but it verifies signed
mails.

Logs reveal this:

kernel: seahorse-tool[6411] general protection rip:2b8efb68db3a
rsp:7fffaec24200 error:0


If this is indeed a bug, someone should be seeing something similar.

Closest  is this, but filed against vesion seahorse 0.90.2 (unsure)
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=363528


(I should mention that I can use gpg  from the command line without
errors)

--
Running on testing, AMD64, Kernel 2.6.17-2
Seahorse : 0.9.5-2


any ideas?


with best regards,
Erle Pereira, Systems Consultant
web: http://www.erlepereira.com


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Re: safe halt/reboot/shutdown


On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, martin f krafft wrote:


Yes and no. From the bug report I think your approach was more
complex (esp. since it involved sudo). Mine's really just a hack
that will only do some silly check if it's called over an SSH
connection and a terminal is connected. Otherwise it just passes
through.


Sudo was involved in my case but not the reason for the problem.
The reason wath the fact that there was a command halt different
from /sbin/halt found in the $PATH (because the sequence in the
directories in $PATH was changed).  So you might also call it
initscripts fault to change the path or the fault of init not
to call /sbin/halt explicitely but I was convinced that providing
another halt executable is not really a good idea.


Especially if this method were standardised (as in packaged in the
Debian archive), I doubt it would be a trap to fall in.


Well, this would really make a difference because in this case
you could write a bug report against initscripts to care for calling
the right halt which was not possible for my local solution.

Kind regards

Andreas.

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Re: Bug#393411: Source package contains non-free IETF RFC/I-D's

Simon Josefsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The second problem seems to be generic.  The reason I looked at
 packages in testing was that they are the packages that are going to
 be released, and if I look at what's in unstable, it seems that I
 might miss what's going to be in etch (e.g., e2fsprogs seems to be
 frozen, and the version in unstable now doesn't seem to be going into
 etch).

 Should I look at packages in unstable, and only if the package is
 frozen, look at the one in testing, instead?

You should check the packages in testing. Then check the packages in
unstable.

Note what packages fixed the problem in unstable, file an RC bug for
the testing version and close it for the unstable version. That then
reflects the reality and will keep track of the problem.

Note what packages started to be buggy in sid. Hopefully none.

MfG
Goswin


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Re: Lack of transparency of automatic actions

Hendrik Sattler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Am Montag 16 Oktober 2006 11:34 schrieb Frank KÃ¼ster:
 Hendrik Sattler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Even worse, you again have to use KDE or Gnome to take advantage of
  network-manager.  Why are we leaving CLI users out in the cold?
 
  Good question. The concept for a cli like this would need many thoughts,
  though. A GUI makes that a bit easier.

 It's not (KDE or GNOME) vs. CLI.  I usually work under X, but I don't
 use a Desktop Environment.  I use some of the GUI tools they offer, but
 it's always unclear to me to what extent this is expected to work at
 all, and which side effects it may have (like creation of stuff called
 icons on my desktop background, if I use the wrong WindowManager, or
 useful subdirectories below $HOME).

 AFAIK, knetworkmanager only needs a compatible system tray and kwallet (to 
 store the keys). I didn't try with Xfce or another WM, though. WMaker is 
 probably a good test candidate.
 Normally, they do not create icons.

And it should fail with an explanation if such is not available. There
is nthing worse than an application that you start and then it puts
itself in an non-existent system tray and sits there unreachable.

 But there is always a lack of control applications, that's true. Another 
 example are passkey agents for current bluez (there is only one for Gnome).

 HS

MfG
Goswin


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Re: sometimes-dependency, linux-image-2.6.18-1-486

Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 04:08:17PM -0500, Clarence Risher wrote:
 of yaird.  Should that be filed as a bug against 
 linux-image-2.6.18-1-486 even though its not always a dependency?

 Yes.

 And that leads me to the general question, on the topic of 
 sometimes-dependencies.  Does debian have any facility to handle such? 
 linux-image-2.6.18-1-486 doesnt technically depend on yaird, since it 
 can use any mkinitrd script (of which there are many, provided by other 
 packages), but when it does pick mkinitrd.yaird then it requires an up 
 to date version of yaird.

 Conflicts. The package doesn't depend on yaird, but it does (should)
 conflict with insufficient versions.


 Hamish

You can also use

Depends: yarid (= 1.2-3) | initramfs-tools | initrd-toos | foo | bar

Any one of them will do but if yarid is used then the version must be
new enough.

MfG
Goswin


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Re: Question regarding maintainer email

2006-10-17 Thread Tino Keitel

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:33:04 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
 Bill Allombert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Something I have yet to understand is what purposes the bounce [from
  a moderated list] serve in the first place. Moderating is OK, but
  bouncing ?
 
 I read many mailing lists (this one, for example) without being
 subscribed as a member.
 
 An automated message saying Your post to the list, unlike many
 others, will be delayed until a human acts tells me that I shouldn't
 get anxious at the non-appearance of my message on the list. Without
 such a message, many people would believe their message was eaten
 somewhere, and post it again and again.

However, it is often the case that such mails will never make it to the
list, due to lazyness or other reasons for the list admin not to accept
the mail manually. I already had this case with an Alioth list that was
used as the maintainer address for a Debian package.

Regards,
Tino


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Re: New cyrus-sasl2 packages

2006-10-17 Thread Gerfried Fuchs

* Roberto C. Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-10-16 01:18]:
 Mail-Followup-To: ...

 quite helfpul, if you ask me. :)  I'm not sure if you wanted that, but
I'm following your wish.

 * These packages are still in a state of flux, so please bear with us

 And they are, as one can see in #393318 - the bug isn't in libetpan nor
in etpan-ng.  Please keep in mind that filing FTBFS RC bugs because of
some package that is still in a state of flux is helping at no end ...
Especially FTBFS bugs which don't appear in a clean unstable chroot
aren't helpful at all.  If you still work on the package and don't
upload it, there is no problem - and you still can fix the problems
appearing within your own package.

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
This is Linux Country. On a quiet night, you can hear Windows reboot.
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[Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k

2006-10-17 Thread Charles Plessy

Dear all,

Clustal W and Clustal X are the most popular software for multiple
alignment of biological sequences. Their source package was NMUed during
the lesstif transition, but not built on enough architectures, and was
therefore removed from testing.

http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/clustalw.html

Can some DD help clustalw to get back into Etch as we still have the
opportunity ? I just entered the NM queue and therefore can not do this
kind of work by myself.

Thank you so much in advance! Have a nice day,

--  
Charles Plessy
Debian-Med packaging team
Wako, Saitama, Japan


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Re: gdm/Gnome/KDE and device permissions

2006-10-17 Thread Petter Reinholdtsen

[Gernot Salzer]
 what is the standard/canonical way of handling device permissions
 in Debian (etch in my case) on desktop PCs running a GUI?

As you probably found out from the replies so far, there is no
standard way. :(

Here are some notes I wrote for Debian Edu.  You might find it useful.

Local device access
---

  The local user should have access to some of the local devices
  (sound, cdrom, etc) after logging in on the console or via
  kdm/gdm/xdm/etc, but not when logging in from remote via ssh.  There
  are as far as I know two ways to make this happen.  One way is to
  add the local user to the groups needed to access these devices, the
  other is to change the permissions on these devices to give access
  to the local user.  The former is done using pam_group, while the
  latter is done using pam_devperm.  Both have advantages and
  weaknesses.

  pam_group
  -

  By updating /etc/pam.d/common-auth and /etc/security/group.conf it is
  possible to add the logged in user to the grous needed (audio,
  floppy, cdrom, plugdev, video).  In addition to getting access to
  the devices present during login, it also make sure hotplugged
  devices like USB sticks work (group membership in plugdev take care
  of this).

  The problem with this method is that every member of the groups in
  question can create a setgid program to gain access to the devices
  also when not logged into the machine.  This will make it possible
  to record from the microphone, read and from the floppy, cdrom and
  usb stick, as well as play unwanted sound on other users computers.
  It is also possible to start long-running processes in the
  background to keep the access privileges to the devices in question.

--- /etc/pam.d/common-auth.orig 2006-10-17 11:25:40.0 +
+++ /etc/pam.d/common-auth  2006-10-17 11:25:29.0 +
@@ -7,4 +7,5 @@
 # (e.g., /etc/shadow, LDAP, Kerberos, etc.).  The default is to use the
 # traditional Unix authentication mechanisms.
 #
+auth   optionalpam_group.so
 auth   requiredpam_unix.so nullok_secure
--- /etc/security/group.conf.orig   2006-10-17 11:27:32.0 +
+++ /etc/security/group.conf2006-10-17 11:31:43.0 +
@@ -55,6 +55,8 @@
 #xsh; tty* ;*;Al0900-1800;floppy


+*; tty*!ttyp*; *; Al-2400; audio,cdrom,floppy,plugdev,video
+*; :0; *; Al-2400; audio,cdrom,floppy,plugdev,video

 #
 # End of group.conf file

  pam_devperm
  ---

  By installing libpam-devperm and updating /etc/pam.d/common-sessionn
  (and /etc/logindevperm to fix bug #393661 and get access to
  /dev/dsp), it is possible to modify the permissions of relevant
  devices when a user log in, and reset the permissions when the user
  log out.  The user of the device is changed to the logged in user,
  and the mode is normally set to 0600 granting exclusive access.

  The problem with this method is that hotplug devices do not work, as
  they are not available when the user is logged in, and the device
  ownership is only modified when the user log in.  Another problem is
  that the user can keep the access privileges for the devices after
  he log out by starting long-running processes in the background.

--- /etc/pam.d/common-session.orig  2006-10-17 11:23:21.0 +
+++ /etc/pam.d/common-session   2006-10-17 10:42:08.0 +
@@ -7,3 +7,4 @@
 # non-interactive).  The default is pam_unix.
 #
 sessionrequiredpam_unix.so
+sessionrequiredpam_devperm.so
--- /etc/logindevperm.orig   2006-10-17 10:51:58.0 +
+++ /etc/logindevperm   2006-10-17 10:53:08.0 +
@@ -24,7 +24,7 @@
 :0 0600 /dev/cdrecorder:/dev/cdrecorder1:/dev/cdrecorder2:/dev/cdrecorder3
 :0 0600 /dev/dvd:/dev/dvd1:/dev/dvd2:/dev/dvd3
 :0 0600 /dev/zip:/dev/zip1:/dev/zip2:/dev/zip3
-:0 0600 /dev/dsp0:/dev/dsp1:/dev/dsp2:/dev/dsp3
+:0 0600 /dev/dsp:/dev/dsp0:/dev/dsp1:/dev/dsp2:/dev/dsp3
 :0 0600 /dev/fd0:/dev/fd0u1440:/dev/fd0h1440:/dev/fd0u720:/dev/fd0h720
 :0 0600 /dev/fd1:/dev/fd1u1440:/dev/fd1h1440:/dev/fd1u720:/dev/fd1h720
 :0 0600 /dev/sequencer:/dev/sequencer2:/dev/music

  Conclusion
  --

  I recommend using the pam_group mechanism to get a working hotplug
  support, and recommend solving the setgid-issue by adding the nosuid
  mount flag to the partitions where users can add files (/home/,
  /tmp/, /dev/shm/, /var/lock/), and solving the problem with
  long-running processes by running some kind of idle-job killer to
  kill long-running processes.


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Re: sometimes-dependency, linux-image-2.6.18-1-486

2006-10-17 Thread Hamish Moffatt

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:35:49AM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
 Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 04:08:17PM -0500, Clarence Risher wrote:
  And that leads me to the general question, on the topic of 
  sometimes-dependencies.  Does debian have any facility to handle such? 
  linux-image-2.6.18-1-486 doesnt technically depend on yaird, since it 
  can use any mkinitrd script (of which there are many, provided by other 
  packages), but when it does pick mkinitrd.yaird then it requires an up 
  to date version of yaird.
 
  Conflicts. The package doesn't depend on yaird, but it does (should)
  conflict with insufficient versions.
 
 You can also use
 Depends: yarid (= 1.2-3) | initramfs-tools | initrd-toos | foo | bar
 
 Any one of them will do but if yarid is used then the version must be
 new enough.

Isn't there the possibility here that you have both yaird ( 1.2-3) and
another suitable package installed? The deps would be met, but
linux-image-* might choose yaird and build a non-working initramfs.
(The initramfs generators don't conflict with each other.)

Hamish
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Re: gdm/Gnome/KDE and device permissions

2006-10-17 Thread Hendrik Sattler

Am Dienstag 17 Oktober 2006 13:50 schrieb Petter Reinholdtsen:
   By updating /etc/pam.d/common-auth and /etc/security/group.conf it is
   possible to add the logged in user to the grous needed (audio,
   floppy, cdrom, plugdev, video).  In addition to getting access to
   the devices present during login, it also make sure hotplugged
   devices like USB sticks work (group membership in plugdev take care
   of this).

Does that work when not using pmount but only hal to mount devices? Can the 
other side of d-bus messages be aware of such group memberships?:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=377689

Unless d-bus started to support this during the last month, setting plugdev 
via PAM will not always work (only when using pmount).
Same probably goes for network-manager and its netdev group.

HS


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building non-free packages on debian.org machines? (was: [Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k)

2006-10-17 Thread Frank Küster

Petter Reinholdtsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 [Charles Plessy]
 Clustal W and Clustal X are the most popular software for multiple
 alignment of biological sequences. Their source package was NMUed during
 the lesstif transition, but not built on enough architectures, and was
 therefore removed from testing.

 http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/clustalw.html

 Ah, the pain with no autobuilders for non-free packages.  You will
 have to find a developer with access to all of the architectures ia64,
 mips, mipsel and s390 (m68k is ignored), and get them to build
 binaries of the package.  

Am I correct that it's not appreciated to build the package on the
debian.org machines?  Unfortunately, this is kind of unclear in the
Machine Usage Policy.  The only thing that comes near is 

,
| Avoid running processes that are abusive in CPU or memory. If
| necessary the DSA's will reap up such processes without warning.
`

Of course in many cases it would be needed to ask the DSA people to
install the required build-deps, but before I ask I'd rather know
whether it's allowed at all.

Regards, Frank

-- 
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: [Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k

2006-10-17 Thread Frank Küster

Petter Reinholdtsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What about convincing the upstream developers to change the license to
 one of the free software licenses?  It would solve the problem for
 good.

Judging from the mail recorded in its copyright file, this isn't likely
to happen.

Regards, Frank
-- 
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: safe halt/reboot/shutdown

2006-10-17 Thread Marc Haber

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:50:08 +0200, martin f krafft
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am sure you've all once typed 'haltenter' only to notice that
you were in an active SSH session and the machine on the other side
of $BIG_DISTANCE obediently followed your request. I've done it way
too much, so I ended up hacking up

  http://svn.madduck.net/pub/sbin/base/shutdown

This script, along with symlinks from halt and reboot, lives in
/usr/local/sbin on all my systems -- and thus I would like to see it
in Debian proper. However, I feel that it's too small for a separate
package, and I am not sure sysv-utils is the appropriate place, even
if debconf would ask the user whether s/he wanted that safety net.

A more compatible way of doing so would be having an optional
configuration file where one could set an option that shutdown won't
do anything unless the correct host name was given on the command
line.

The config file should be optional so that shutdown's behavior is not
altered in the default case and shutdown still works even if the
config file is not available for any reason such as a broken system.

While we are at it, this configuration file should also have an option
to completely forbid shutdown -h or halt - a colocated server that
switches itself off after shutdown -h won't respond to a reset signal,
so remote hands are needed.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834

How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

Hi all,

I believe that since command-line Linux is hard to learn, Debian should
offer handholding. (This would benefit both Debian users who are new to
the command line and How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie
and offer help?

For example, when a person types newbie commands like help or kde
(which is bound to something already) or the DOS commands del or ren
(which are not), we should point them to more help. (In case anyone here
has ever watched a real clueless newbie struggle: What are other
commands that 100% clueless newbies often type?)

For example, there are various Linux command-line mode tutorials out
there. There are also the manuals linked to from debian.org. Plus there
are tons of good quick reference cards; I do some tutoring and the one I
recommend most often to my clients is The One Page Linux Manual.
There's even an interactive Java-based tutorial on the Web (Google for
linux interactive tutorial). There is also our support webpage that
points users to the mailing lists and IRC. Finally, for those without
cheap web access, there are documents such as debian-reference-en and
quick-reference-en, though they're Priority: optional and so unlikely to
be installed.

What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that
indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a
wishlist against to request that such help be added?

Regards,
Jason Spiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will
walk carefully.
-- Russian Proverb 


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Debian Installer - Call for testing this week

2006-10-17 Thread Frans Pop

(Please reply to the debian-boot list.)

Preparations for Release Candidate 1 of the installer have now really 
started. All important functional changes are now included in the daily 
images.

In order improve the quality of the release and reduce the number of nasty 
surprises afterwards, it would be great if we could get some help testing 
the installer during *this week*.

Please make sure you use one of the _daily built_ images available from:
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
or
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/

and file an installation report with your findings:
http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch05s03.html#submit-bug

See this wiki page for a general overview of the planned release, 
including known issues:
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/EtchRC1Prep


Testing the installer for your favorite architecture(s)
===
This is the main focus for this call for testing. Please let us know if 
there are any important issues, especially regressions from previous 
releases. If you can, try different installation methods.

Note that the installer still uses 2.6.17. Main reason is that 2.6.18 is 
not yet ready to migrate to testing and switching to 2.6.18 would 
therefore block RC1 of d-i. Depending on the kernel team and RMs, we may 
still switch to 2.6.18 before RC1, but switching immediately afterwards 
looks more likely.

Other things to test

There is a number of other things that could be tested, mostly new 
functionality that was added recently:
- graphical installer, especially whether your mouse and touchpad work
  correctly
- crypto support in partman: the installer now has crypto support both
  for guided [1] and manual [2] partitioning; thorough tests, including
  of the actual security of the installed system, very, very welcome
- automatic raid partitioning (preseeded only [1])
- 2.6 based installation floppies for i386
- support for non-standard filesystems (i.e. anything other than ext3)
- if you speak a language other than English, consider installing in
  that language; note that one last round of translation updates is
  still planned, but reports of issues are still appreciated

TIA,
Frans Pop

[1]http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch06s03.html#di-partition
[2]http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch06s03.html#partman-crypto
[3]http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/apbs04.html#preseed-partman-raid


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Re: safe halt/reboot/shutdown

2006-10-17 Thread martin f krafft

also sprach Marc Haber [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.10.17.1453 +0200]:
 A more compatible way of doing so would be having an optional
 configuration file where one could set an option that shutdown
 won't do anything unless the correct host name was given on the
 command line.

You want to alter /sbin/shutdown itself?

 While we are at it, this configuration file should also have an option
 to completely forbid shutdown -h or halt - a colocated server that
 switches itself off after shutdown -h won't respond to a reset signal,
 so remote hands are needed.

This is a good idea. I'll see to implementing this in my script,
along with the suggested configuration file handling. I do like the
extra prompt though...

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: :'  :  proud Debian developer, author, administrator, and user
`. `'`   http://people.debian.org/~madduck - http://debiansystem.info
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems
 
NP: No-Man / Flowermouth (2005 Reissue)


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Re: gdm/Gnome/KDE and device permissions

2006-10-17 Thread Petter Reinholdtsen


[Hendrik Sattler]
 Does that work when not using pmount but only hal to mount devices? Can the 
 other side of d-bus messages be aware of such group memberships?:
 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=377689

Thank you for the reference.  It seem to me that this problem still
exist in the KDE version we use.

 Unless d-bus started to support this during the last month, setting
 plugdev via PAM will not always work (only when using pmount).  Same
 probably goes for network-manager and its netdev group.

:(

Friendly,
-- 
Petter Reinholdtsen


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Re: [Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k

2006-10-17 Thread Frank Küster

Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 02:38:49PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
[...]
 Just read the mails of these both threads and learn why we have
 not yet autobuilders for non-free.  IMHO the main issue is that
 nobody really _did_ it.

 There are two issues at hand that explain why there is no non-free
 autobuilder:

 * Most people who could set up one (because they have the hardware and
   the skillz) do not want to [...]
 * Packages in main are required to be DFSG-free 
[...]
 Therefore, anyone interested in building non-free
   would need to maintain a list of packages that do not have such
   problematic restrictions. TTBOMK, this has not happened.

This is nothing new, it has already been discussed in the thread Andreas
referenced.  

Something new would be an answer to my question whether it's acceptable
to build non-free packages on the Debian machines.

Regards, Frank
-- 
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread Mario Iseli

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 01:02:45PM +, Jason Spiro wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I believe that since command-line Linux is hard to learn, Debian should
 offer handholding. (This would benefit both Debian users who are new to
 the command line and How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie
 and offer help?

Hmm, I don't think it's hard to learn, it's just hard to switch when
you say a normal user to switch his OS now.

 For example, when a person types newbie commands like help or kde
 (which is bound to something already) or the DOS commands del or ren
 (which are not), we should point them to more help. (In case anyone here
 has ever watched a real clueless newbie struggle: What are other
 commands that 100% clueless newbies often type?)

This is a good idea, we put little shell scripts somewhere and add it to
the PATH variable for all members of the group newbies, something like
that at least. Then we could also tell them which manpages to read and
point them to some good websites or wikis.

 What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that
 indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a
 wishlist against to request that such help be added?

We could start together a project which does this shell scripts, I think
it's not really a lot of work. Don't file a bug, first we can do a
linuxnewbie program and someone (maybe myself) will build a debian
package one day.

For me there's only one point:
We have to make sure that advanced users DO NOT get this bothering
messages.

Regards

-- 
  .''`. Mario Iseli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 : :'  :proud user of Debian unstable
 `. `'`
   `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system


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Re: safe halt/reboot/shutdown

2006-10-17 Thread Marc Haber

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:12:25 +0200, martin f krafft
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
also sprach Marc Haber [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.10.17.1453 +0200]:
 A more compatible way of doing so would be having an optional
 configuration file where one could set an option that shutdown
 won't do anything unless the correct host name was given on the
 command line.

You want to alter /sbin/shutdown itself?

Yes.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: [Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k

2006-10-17 Thread Petter Reinholdtsen


[Charles Plessy]
 Clustal W and Clustal X are the most popular software for multiple
 alignment of biological sequences. Their source package was NMUed during
 the lesstif transition, but not built on enough architectures, and was
 therefore removed from testing.

 http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/clustalw.html

Ah, the pain with no autobuilders for non-free packages.  You will
have to find a developer with access to all of the architectures ia64,
mips, mipsel and s390 (m68k is ignored), and get them to build
binaries of the package.  Or you can ask the ftpmasters to remove the
binaries for these archs, but that normally take longer time.  I only
have i386 machines myself, so I can not help you.

What about convincing the upstream developers to change the license to
one of the free software licenses?  It would solve the problem for
good.

Friendly,
-- 
Petter Reinholdtsen



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Re: [Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k


On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:


Ah, the pain with no autobuilders for non-free packages.


Exactly.


You will
have to find a developer with access to all of the architectures ia64,
mips, mipsel and s390 (m68k is ignored), and get them to build
binaries of the package.


In principle this might be every developer via

   http://db.debian.org/machines.cgi

but it is just a pain to do it this way (and does not always work -
at least when I tried some months ago I was not able to compile the
package I tried).


Or you can ask the ftpmasters to remove the
binaries for these archs, but that normally take longer time.


That would be stupid because we *want* the architectures.


What about convincing the upstream developers to change the license to
one of the free software licenses?  It would solve the problem for
good.


When I maintained this package I tried and I guess my successors tried
as well.  Another solution was suggested nearly 5 years ago

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/11/msg01472.html

and if I remember also at other occurences but the search interface
for the list archive does not uncover these mails and Google found
only this one for a quick glance.

Kind regards

Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de


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Re: [Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k


On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, Andreas Tille wrote:


When I maintained this package I tried and I guess my successors tried
as well.  Another solution was suggested nearly 5 years ago

   http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/11/msg01472.html

and if I remember also at other occurences but the search interface


Just to reply to my own mail:  I blamed the search interface to
fast:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2002/11/msg00270.html

Just read the mails of these both threads and learn why we have
not yet autobuilders for non-free.  IMHO the main issue is that
nobody really _did_ it.

Kind regards

 Andreas.

--
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Re: [Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k

2006-10-17 Thread Wouter Verhelst

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 02:38:49PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
 On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, Andreas Tille wrote:
 
 When I maintained this package I tried and I guess my successors tried
 as well.  Another solution was suggested nearly 5 years ago
 
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/11/msg01472.html
 
 and if I remember also at other occurences but the search interface
 
 Just to reply to my own mail:  I blamed the search interface to
 fast:
 
 http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2002/11/msg00270.html
 
 Just read the mails of these both threads and learn why we have
 not yet autobuilders for non-free.  IMHO the main issue is that
 nobody really _did_ it.

There are two issues at hand that explain why there is no non-free
autobuilder:

* Most people who could set up one (because they have the hardware and
  the skillz) do not want to, either because they feel that maintaining
  buildd machines for main takes up more than enough of their time, or
  because they oppose to working on non-free as a principle.
* Packages in main are required to be DFSG-free; therefore, it cannot be
  illegal to install or build this package if you live in Europe, are
  male, do not speak English, or any other silly requirement. The only
  requirement for a package to appear in Debian is that Debian must be
  allowed to *distribute* it. A requirement that we are allowed to build
  or even install it, is not part of the requirement of non-free. While
  the examples I gave above are obviously silly and over the top, there
  are actual examples of packages in non-free that have license
  requirements which would make autobuilding them (or their reverse
  dependencies) cumbersome, at the very least (though I can't recall
  which they were). Therefore, anyone interested in building non-free
  would need to maintain a list of packages that do not have such
  problematic restrictions. TTBOMK, this has not happened.

-- 
Lo-lan-do Home is where you have to wash the dishes.
  -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22


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Re: safe halt/reboot/shutdown


On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, Marc Haber wrote:


You want to alter /sbin/shutdown itself?


Yes.


According to my own experience this would probably be the
only clean way.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

--
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Re: safe halt/reboot/shutdown

2006-10-17 Thread martin f krafft

also sprach Marc Haber [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.10.17.1556 +0200]:
 You want to alter /sbin/shutdown itself?
 
 Yes.

Go for it. In the mean time I am going to deal with my shell script.

-- 
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Source package contains non-free IETF RFC/I-D's

2006-10-17 Thread Simon Josefsson

Some raised a concern with false positives in my reports -- and also
tagged all the bugs with etch-ignore.  I went through all bug reports
manually yesterday (see earlier mail), but I also realized that it
would be possible to do this automatically, to provide further
assurance that the bugs indicate real and confirmed problems.

I've updated my script to do this, view it last on the page:
http://wiki.debian.org/NonFreeIETFDocuments

The script will run md5sum on the RFC/I-D in source packages, and
compare them against a known-real repository (rsync'ed against
ftp.rfc-editor.org).

The output of the script is very long, so I won't include it here.  An
URL to it is:
http://josefsson.org/bcp78broken/debian-ietf-documents-diff.txt

To parse the output yourself, look for lines beginning with 'pkg'.
Those denote the start of a new package with potential problems.
After that there will be lines such as 'tar xfz...' and two MD5 sums.
If the MD5 sums match, it will print MATCH.  If the MD5 sums mismatch,
it will print MISMATCH.  If it can't find a known-good file to compare
with, it prints FETCH-FAIL.

Some statistics:
  74 packages
 401 MATCH, i.e., the RFC in the source package is an authentic RFC
  79 MISMATCH, i.e., the RFC differ from the authentic RFC
   6 FETCH-FAIL

Note that this does _not_ mean that there were 79 false positives in
my reports.  Nothing I did today indicates that there are any more
false positives except (possibly) draft-zebra-00.txt that I found
manually yesterday.

The FETCH-FAIL's are few and easy to analyze:

FETCH-FAIL draft-davis-dasl-protocol-00.txt
FETCH-FAIL spf-draft-20040209.txt
FETCH-FAIL spf-draft-200405.txt
FETCH-FAIL rfc.txt
FETCH-FAIL rfc.txt
FETCH-FAIL draft-zebra-00.txt

I can't find the first document anywhere on the Internet, possibly the
filename is incorrect, although it looks like a submitted IETF
document.  spf-* were submitted through the IETF under other names.
rfc.txt is a dummy file.  draft-zebra-00.txt was the likely false
positive I found manually yesterday.

The MISMATCH'es are more interesting to analyze, and indicate a
variety of reasons.

As can be seen in the file, just a few pages down, one reason is that
the RFC in the source package differs from the authenticate RFC!
E.g., typos has been corrected.  Modifying the document is not
permitted by the IETF license, so these files do not seem to be
legally distributable at all, not even in non-free.

Several files differ trivially, such as removed/added initial/terminal
newlines, or changing multiple newlines into one newline.

At least one file differ due to RCS $Id$ tags.

In the DateTime-Format-Mail archive, the files differ substantially
because the source package only contains a small excerpt from the RFC,
instead of the entire RFC.

Some files differ because I can't compare them to the real document,
because the IETF used to put a RIP-notice that the document has
expired using the same filename.  The diff output for all of them
suggests that these are real IETF documents, though.

/Simon


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Re: Bug#393411: Source package contains non-free IETF RFC/I-D's

2006-10-17 Thread Simon Josefsson

Goswin von Brederlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Simon Josefsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The second problem seems to be generic.  The reason I looked at
 packages in testing was that they are the packages that are going to
 be released, and if I look at what's in unstable, it seems that I
 might miss what's going to be in etch (e.g., e2fsprogs seems to be
 frozen, and the version in unstable now doesn't seem to be going into
 etch).

 Should I look at packages in unstable, and only if the package is
 frozen, look at the one in testing, instead?

 You should check the packages in testing.

This is what I'm doing now.

 Then check the packages in unstable.

I'm doing this step manually now.

 Note what packages fixed the problem in unstable, file an RC bug for
 the testing version and close it for the unstable version. That then
 reflects the reality and will keep track of the problem.

Hm, I know how to submit a bug for the version in testing (this is
what I've done), but I don't know how to close it for the unstable
version.  How do I do that?

 Note what packages started to be buggy in sid. Hopefully none.

Exactly -- I intend to mirror and check unstable for regressions in
this area.  I submitted a lintian check for this, if something like it
can be installed, it would also help avoid this problem in the future.

/Simon


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Re: safe halt/reboot/shutdown

2006-10-17 Thread martin f krafft

also sprach Andreas Tille [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006.10.17.1600 +0200]:
 According to my own experience this would probably be the only
 clean way.

I fail to see the problem with my shell script: unless it's called
via SSH while connected to a terminal, it does nothing else but call
/sbin/halt.real (or whatever the actual halt command is). No sudo,
no grep, no anything, just plain POSIX shell.

I agree that it would be *nice* to have a policy framework for
shutdown, but it just won't happen before etch. But I want my shell
script in etch.

Thus, unless I get other suggestions, I'll package it up in its own
package, which diverts /sbin/{reboot,halt,shutdown} and puts my
shell script in their place. I'll Enhance whatever init systems
there are and I'll ask them to add Suggests.

-- 
Please do not send copies of list mail to me; I read the list!
 
 .''`.   martin f. krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Missing days?

2006-10-17 Thread Sune Vuorela

Hi!

I have started to wonder a bit about 'missing days' - a thing that is
especially importaint now when we are heading for a total freeze.

From http://packages.qa.debian.org/u/udev.html:
Too young, only 1 of 10 days old
[2006-10-15] Accepted 0.100-2.1 in unstable (low) 

and here my math works fine.

But here:
http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/kwin-style-crystal.html
Too young, only 1 of 10 days old
[2006-10-13] Accepted 1.0.2-1 in unstable (low)

But here, my math don't work as expected.

Anyone able to enlighten me a bit ?

/Sune


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Re: Missing days?

2006-10-17 Thread Sune Vuorela

On 2006-10-17, Sune Vuorela [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 But here:
 http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/kwin-style-crystal.html
 Too young, only 1 of 10 days old
 [2006-10-13] Accepted 1.0.2-1 in unstable (low)

hmm... one day has just gone here. now 2 of 10 (But I still miss one day
;)

/Sune


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Re: [Help] Please compile clustalw on architectures ia64, mips, mipsel, s390 and m68k

2006-10-17 Thread Charles Plessy

Le Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 02:30:59PM +0200, Frank Küster a écrit :
Petter Reinholdtsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

What about convincing the upstream developers to change the license to
one of the free software licenses? It would solve the problem for
good.

Judging from the mail recorded in its copyright file, this isn't likely
to happen.

http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/non-free/c/clustalw/clustalw_1.83-1.1/clustalw.copyright

Dear all,

Eight years have passed since the authors of Clustal gave a special
permission to Debian. There could be hope that the non-exclusive
licences they sold to companies have expired, removing the reason for
which they are reluctant to give Clustal away for free. Indeed, as there
are now some competitors in the public domain, I see more and more
commercial products using them instead of Clustal, so it is predictable
that the authors will not get revenues from this program for ever, if
they still do.

When the Debian-Med project will have some authority in the field of
molecular biology and bioinformatics, I think that it will be a good
idea to contact the academic authors of non-free software, and ask them
if they would like to reconsider their choice. But for this, we need
success, and for success we need to listen to our users, and our users
still massively use Clustal compared to the free competitors.

http://people.debian.org/~igloo/popcon-graphs/index.php?packages=kalign+dialign+probcons+clustalx+clustalw+muscle+t-coffee+poa+amap-align+sigma-alignshow_installed=onwant_legend=onbeenhere=1

I do not know how to interpret the popcon data: either some users are
swiching from the clustal programs to alternatives, or we are losing
some users since clustalw was removed from testing. Already 10 % less...
Ouch, it bleeds...

In conclusion: by building this non-free package and allowing clustalw
to migrate in testing, you will help to increase our user base and
promote all the free software we promote together with clustalw:

http://wiki.debian.org/SequenceAlignment

PS: depending on the answer, debian-science can be a better list than
debian-devel.

PPS: I would bet that half of the architectures on which clustalw is
missing are architectures on which nobody uses Clustal W or Clustal X,
but this is another story...

Have a nice day,

--
Charles Plessy
Debian-Med Packaging Team
Wako, Saitama, Japan

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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

On 2006-10-17, Mario Iseli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 We could start together a project which does this shell scripts, I think
 it's not really a lot of work. Don't file a bug, first we can do a
 linuxnewbie program and someone (maybe myself) will build a debian
 package one day.

Has anyone ever done anything similar before?

What does policy say about the idea of modifying users' PATH statements?
I vaguely remember reading an ITP or something for colorwrapper, a
program which colorizes the output of ps, date, dmesg, etc. which
I think requires changing the user's path. But I don't remember what
ended up happening.

What should the help message we display say?

 For me there's only one point:
 We have to make sure that advanced users DO NOT get this bothering
 messages.

How? :-) And will it matter, if it only affects commands like 'kde',
'gnome', 'move', 'ren', and 'delete' which currently just say bash:
command not found?

--Jason

-- 
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will
walk carefully.
-- Russian Proverb 


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Re: Source package contains non-free IETF RFC/I-D's

2006-10-17 Thread Luk Claes

Simon Josefsson wrote:
 Some raised a concern with false positives in my reports -- and also
 tagged all the bugs with etch-ignore.  I went through all bug reports
 manually yesterday (see earlier mail), but I also realized that it
 would be possible to do this automatically, to provide further
 assurance that the bugs indicate real and confirmed problems.

Note that it was not the only reason to tag them etch-ignore...

 I've updated my script to do this, view it last on the page:
 http://wiki.debian.org/NonFreeIETFDocuments
 
 The script will run md5sum on the RFC/I-D in source packages, and
 compare them against a known-real repository (rsync'ed against
 ftp.rfc-editor.org).
 
 The output of the script is very long, so I won't include it here.  An
 URL to it is:
 http://josefsson.org/bcp78broken/debian-ietf-documents-diff.txt
 
 To parse the output yourself, look for lines beginning with 'pkg'.
 Those denote the start of a new package with potential problems.
 After that there will be lines such as 'tar xfz...' and two MD5 sums.
 If the MD5 sums match, it will print MATCH.  If the MD5 sums mismatch,
 it will print MISMATCH.  If it can't find a known-good file to compare
 with, it prints FETCH-FAIL.
 
 Some statistics:
   74 packages
  401 MATCH, i.e., the RFC in the source package is an authentic RFC
   79 MISMATCH, i.e., the RFC differ from the authentic RFC
6 FETCH-FAIL

Note that not all authentic RFC documents have the same license, some of them
are probably even DFSG compliant...

So there can be more than 79 false positives...

Cheers

Luk

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Fingerprint:   D5AF 25FB 316B 53BB 08E7   F999 E544 DE07 9B7C 328D



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Re: Missing days?

2006-10-17 Thread Kurt Roeckx

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 02:34:11PM +, Sune Vuorela wrote:
 Hi!
 
 I have started to wonder a bit about 'missing days' - a thing that is
 especially importaint now when we are heading for a total freeze.
 
 From http://packages.qa.debian.org/u/udev.html:
 Too young, only 1 of 10 days old
 [2006-10-15] Accepted 0.100-2.1 in unstable (low) 

I got:
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 10:02:15 -0700

Which is before the dinstall run on the 15th.  A few hours later
dinstall runs.  Yet a few hour later britney runs and sees it for
the first time.  At that point, it's 0 days old.

Than 24 hours later, britney runs again, and it's 1 day old.

In about 10 hours, britney will run again, and it will become 2 days
old.

 But here:
 http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/kwin-style-crystal.html
 Too young, only 1 of 10 days old
 [2006-10-13] Accepted 1.0.2-1 in unstable (low)

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:48:15 -0700

Which is a few hours after the dinstall run on the 13th.  A few hours
later when britney runs, it doesn't see it yet.  Britney only sees it
more than 24h after it was uploaded.  So it's 2 days old now.


Kurt


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Bug#393739: ITP: myghtyutils -- Set of utility classes used by Myghty templating

2006-10-17 Thread Oleksandr Moskalenko

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Oleksandr Moskalenko [EMAIL PROTECTED]


* Package name: myghtyutils
  Version : 0.52
  Upstream Author : Michael Bayer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* URL : http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/MyghtyUtils/
* License : MIT
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Set of utility classes used by Myghty templating

 Utility classes used by Myghty templating:
 container - the Containment system providing back-end neutral key/value
 storage, with support for in-memory, DBM files, flat files, and memcached.
 buffer - some functions for augmenting file objects .
 util - various utility functions and objects.
 synchronizer - provides many reader/single writer synchronization using
 either thread mutexes or lockfiles.
 session - provides a Session interface built upon the Container, similar
 interface to mod_python session. Currently needs a mod_python-like request
 object, this should be changed to something more generic.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (950, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing'), (10, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-mrb319
Locale: LANG=uk_UA.KOI8-U, LC_CTYPE=uk_UA.KOI8-U (charmap=KOI8-U)


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Bug#393756: ITP: beaker -- Simple WSGI middleware that uses the Myghty Container API

2006-10-17 Thread Oleksandr Moskalenko

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Oleksandr Moskalenko [EMAIL PROTECTED]


* Package name: beaker
  Version : 0.6.1
  Upstream Author : Julian Krause and Ben Bangart - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* URL : http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/Beaker/
* License : MIT
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Simple WSGI middleware that uses the Myghty Container API

 Simple WSGI middleware that uses the Myghty Container API
 MyghtyUtils contains a very robust Container API for storing data using
 various backends. Beaker uses those APIs to implement common web application
 wrappers, like sessions and caching, in WSGI middleware. Currently the only
 middleware implemented is that for sessions but more is coming soon.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (950, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing'), (10, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-mrb319
Locale: LANG=uk_UA.KOI8-U, LC_CTYPE=uk_UA.KOI8-U (charmap=KOI8-U)


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Re: sometimes-dependency, linux-image-2.6.18-1-486

Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:35:49AM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
 Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 04:08:17PM -0500, Clarence Risher wrote:
  And that leads me to the general question, on the topic of 
  sometimes-dependencies.  Does debian have any facility to handle such? 
  linux-image-2.6.18-1-486 doesnt technically depend on yaird, since it 
  can use any mkinitrd script (of which there are many, provided by other 
  packages), but when it does pick mkinitrd.yaird then it requires an up 
  to date version of yaird.
 
  Conflicts. The package doesn't depend on yaird, but it does (should)
  conflict with insufficient versions.
 
 You can also use
 Depends: yarid (= 1.2-3) | initramfs-tools | initrd-toos | foo | bar
 
 Any one of them will do but if yarid is used then the version must be
 new enough.

 Isn't there the possibility here that you have both yaird ( 1.2-3) and
 another suitable package installed? The deps would be met, but
 linux-image-* might choose yaird and build a non-working initramfs.
 (The initramfs generators don't conflict with each other.)

 Hamish

Then you do actually need

Depends: yarid | initramfs-tools | initrd-toos | foo | bar
Conflicts: yarid (= 1.2-3)


What happens if you have multiple initrd/initramfs generators
installed? Do you get multiple images?

MfG
Goswin


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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

Hi,

let me respond to the subject. I don't know about the rest of the
mail, sorry.

Anyway, the usual way to detect a newbie and give help to them seems
to be to assume everyone a newbie and give little hints, startup tips,
... till they learn enough to turn them off. For examples see gimp or
mc.

MfG
Goswin

PS: One of the hints better be how to turn the hints off. :)


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Bug#393757: ITP: webhelpers -- Library of helper functions to make writing web application templates easier

2006-10-17 Thread Oleksandr Moskalenko

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Oleksandr Moskalenko [EMAIL PROTECTED]


* Package name: webhelpers
  Version : 0.2.1
  Upstream Author : Ben Bangert [EMAIL PROTECTED] and James Gardner [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
* URL : http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/WebHelpers/
* License : BSD
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Library of helper functions to make writing web application 
templates easier

 One of the sub-sections of Web Helpers contains a full port of the template
 helpers that are provided by Ruby on Rails with slight adaptations on
 occasion to accommodate for Python. Some of these helpers only require Routes
 to function.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: testing/unstable
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (950, 'unstable'), (500, 'testing'), (10, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)
Shell:  /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash
Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-mrb319
Locale: LANG=uk_UA.KOI8-U, LC_CTYPE=uk_UA.KOI8-U (charmap=KOI8-U)


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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

On 2006-10-17, Goswin von Brederlow
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]

 Anyway, the usual way to detect a newbie and give help to them seems
 to be to assume everyone a newbie and give little hints, startup tips,
 ... till they learn enough to turn them off. For examples see gimp or
 mc.

 PS: One of the hints better be how to turn the hints off. :)

Someone suggested to me off-list that perhaps all we need is to provide
a pointer to more newbie help in /etc/issue. Perhaps that would be the
easiest to implement, and the easiest for users to disable :-), no?

The disadvantage would be that users who have X Window plus KDM
already set up, or who SSH into a friend's machine, who need help with
linux commands in an xterm wouldn't see the message, but I assume that
is a rare case so just editing /etc/issue and /etc/issue.net is fine.
Agree?

If the issue file were changed, what could go in it? I suggest:

* one link to a special webpage which points total newbies to
  newbie documentation and also gives newbie-level instructions on how
  to get technical support

* also, instructions how to view one offline-viewable Linux *tutorial*
  which is already installed - preferably a good one, but even the
  bad old intro(1) manpage if there is no good one.

Also, perhaps it'd be possible for the bash help command to display
those same two things in addition to the terse reference it already
displays.

What do you think?

-- 
The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will
walk carefully.
-- Russian Proverb 


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[no subject]


retitle 376431 RFP: openwatcom -- C/C++ compiler/IDE that make
efficient, portable code
submitter 376431 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
severity 376431 wishlist
thanks

It looks unlikely I will manage to package this. It's too big a
package to deal with as my first package ever. Open Watcom is complex;
it does not use autoconf; and nobody has ever packaged the Linux port
of Open Watcom before. Main issues include:

- Open Watcom 1.5 does not seem to build on Linux. 1.4 and the dailies
seem to build fine though.
- the license (though they don't have to make that many changes to it
- see thread on debian-legal)
- paths and $WATCOM (Open Watcom expects the $WATCOM variable to be
set, which conflicts with policy)
   - where will the data files go? surely not in /usr/local/watcom, right?
   - there has been some argument in the past in
news://news.openwatcom.org/openwatcom.contributors about how the paths
should be arranged.
- there'd be a lot of manpages to write. and forget the idea of using
help2man, openwatcom help is not in the proper format

I think the first thing for whoever wants to package this to do would
be to work with the upstream committers to deal with 2 things: the
license (my advice: try to get it in non-free first, GPL idea can wait
till later) and the path issue.

In my opinion, the paths issue should be dealt with later on, in
private and not on a public mailing list, so as to avoid starting a
flamewar.

If someone else decides to try take a stab at it, I'd love to hear
your progress and I might be interested in co-maintaining.

Also, if someone wants my .diff.gz with a debian/rules, a
debian/control, and which modifies wcc, wcc386, and part of wlink to
look in other paths, email me. The changes the .diff.gz makes aren't
that well-written though.

Cheers,
Jason
change ITP to RFP

Re: sometimes-dependency, linux-image-2.6.18-1-486

2006-10-17 Thread Steinar H. Gunderson

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 08:44:16PM +0200, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
 What happens if you have multiple initrd/initramfs generators
 installed? Do you get multiple images?

No, kernel-package has logic to pick one of them and go with that.

/* Steinar */
-- 
Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/


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iptables extensions removed from package

2006-10-17 Thread Aaron Dummer

Hello,

In the most recent version of iptables, IPMARK and several other extensions
were removed [1].

I disagree with this change, and contacted the maintainer about it by filing a
bug report [2]. The maintainer declined to put the extensions back into the
package, but provided no reason why, other than I do not have to include any
patch-o-matic extensions.

A historical version of the README.Debian file included with iptables [3]
(it's no longer included in current versions) states that as many extensions
as possible will be included in the package. I think this is a great idea.

A recent dicussion on the netfilter-devel mailing list [4] discussed the fact
that the patch-o-matic system is undergoing/has undergone a change in
structure, whereas the actual patches are hosted on third-party sites rather
than on netfilter.org. I don't see why this would cause the extensions to be
removed from the Debian package.

Am I missing something here? Extensions such as IPMARK are stable and used by
many in the community. I don't understand why they have been removed from
Debian. I would like to see them put back into the mainstream so I don't
have to maintain my own separate package.

What do you think?

Thanks.

1.
http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/i/iptables/iptables_1.3.5.0debian1-1/changelog
2. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=392998
3. http://www.fifi.org/doc/iptables/README.Debian
4. http://patchwork.netfilter.org/netfilter-devel/patch.pl?id=3456

--
Aaron Dummer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread Ron Johnson

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 10/17/06 08:02, Jason Spiro wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I believe that since command-line Linux is hard to learn, Debian should
 offer handholding. (This would benefit both Debian users who are new to
 the command line and How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie
 and offer help?
 
[snip]
 
 What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that
 indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a
 wishlist against to request that such help be added?

$ wajig search newbie | sort
bookmarks - Debian bookmark collection
fdclone - A console-base lightweight file manager
linuxfacile - An Italian manual for newbies
newbiedoc - Documentation by and for newbies
selflinux - A collection of German documents about Linux
uim - Simple and flexible input method collection and library


- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is common sense really valid?
For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that common sense is obviously wrong.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)

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H3jG6Q1NiKdZvrjQeQyYCto=
=SEPk
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread Andrew Vaughan

On Wednesday 18 October 2006 05:41, you wrote:
 On 2006-10-17, Goswin von Brederlow
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [snip]

  Anyway, the usual way to detect a newbie and give help to them seems
  to be to assume everyone a newbie and give little hints, startup tips,
  ... till they learn enough to turn them off. For examples see gimp or
  mc.
 
  PS: One of the hints better be how to turn the hints off. :)

 Someone suggested to me off-list that perhaps all we need is to provide
 a pointer to more newbie help in /etc/issue. Perhaps that would be the
 easiest to implement, and the easiest for users to disable :-), no?

As already suggested, desktop environments could/should have a help/tips 
display that's turned on by default for new users.  

What's really needed is better help for newbies dumped unexpectedly at the 
command-line because X wasn't installed/properly configured/didn't start.

I'd suggest only 1-2 lines of login help in /etc/issue, and command-line 
help (equal to 1-2 lines of text saying type xxx for help) in /etc/motd. 

xxx might display a help file/command line guide, or start a basic tutorial, 
or a special newbie shell environment.  At its simplest it could just show 
a 80x24 page of help text containing basic commands and pointers to more 
help.  

Andrew


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Re: Bug#393411: Source package contains non-free IETF RFC/I-D's

2006-10-17 Thread Steve Langasek

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 03:49:54PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
  Note what packages fixed the problem in unstable, file an RC bug for
  the testing version and close it for the unstable version. That then
  reflects the reality and will keep track of the problem.

 Hm, I know how to submit a bug for the version in testing (this is
 what I've done), but I don't know how to close it for the unstable
 version.  How do I do that?

Use a Version: version-which-fixes pseudo-header in your mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Source package contains non-free IETF RFC/I-D's

2006-10-17 Thread Simon Josefsson



On 17 okt 2006, at 18.47, Luk Claes wrote:


Some statistics:
  74 packages
 401 MATCH, i.e., the RFC in the source package is an authentic RFC
  79 MISMATCH, i.e., the RFC differ from the authentic RFC
   6 FETCH-FAIL


Note that not all authentic RFC documents have the same license,  
some of them

are probably even DFSG compliant...


Can you name one such license that is DFSG-free?

RFC's published before 1989 may be in the public domain, since they  
don't contain a copyright notice, but the RFC editor claim that the  
new copying conditions apply retroactively.


RFC's published after 1989 are protected by copyrights, but as far as  
I know, none of the RFC licenses are free.  The RFC 2026 and the RFC  
3978 licenses has been discussed before.  That leaves, I believe,  
only the license specified by RFC 1602, which reads:


Copyright (c) ISOC (year date).  Permission is granted
to reproduce, distribute, transmit and otherwise
communicate to the public any material subject to
copyright by ISOC, provided that credit is given to the
source.  For information concerning required

That appears to be non-free.

I note that RFC 1602 do seem to give the ISOC the right to release  
those RFCs under a liberal license:


 l.   Contributor agrees to grant, and does grant to ISOC, a
  perpetual, non-exclusive, royalty-free, world-wide right
  and license under any copyrights in the contribution to
  reproduce, distribute, perform or display publicly and
  prepare derivative works that are based on or incorporate
  all or part of the contribution, and to reproduce,
  distribute and perform or display publicly any such
  derivative works, in any form and in all languages,  
and to

  authorize others to do so.

Perhaps talking to ISOC about this would help.


So there can be more than 79 false positives...


I don't yet see any way for that to hold.

/Simon


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Re: malsync ready for adoption

2006-10-17 Thread Ludovic Rousseau

Le 16.10.2006, à 11:48:41, Daniel Schepler a écrit:
 On Sunday 15 October 2006 21:48 pm, Ludovic Rousseau wrote:
  If you are interested you should also adopt libmal. It causes a problem
  on kpilot and I offered the package to the kpilot maintainer without an
  answer from him. See #389353.
 
  If no one adopt it I will request the removal of malsync from unstable.
 
 Sorry, I missed that message.  I'm not interested in maintaining libmal; it's 
 just an optional add-on to kpilot.  If libmal were removed from unstable, I 
 would most likely just recompile kdepim with the libmal-dev build-dep cut 
 out.

OK.
 
What is preferred for a buggy and unmaintained (upstream) package
- removal
or
- orphaning

I can orphan libmal but that will not solve #389353 and the QA will not
be able to debug it without access to a PDA and an account on
http://www.avantgo.com/

The upsteam maintainer can't test it either so I do not see a fast
resolution here.

 By the way, where did you get the idea that the submitter of #389353 and the 
 kpilot maintainer were the same person?  I'm not Peter Robin. :)

Oops, sorry.

Bye,

-- 
 Dr. Ludovic Rousseau[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 -- Normaliser Unix c'est comme pasteuriser le camembert, L.R. --


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Re: Source package contains non-free IETF RFC/I-D's

2006-10-17 Thread Steve Langasek

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 11:46:11PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:

 Some statistics:
   74 packages
  401 MATCH, i.e., the RFC in the source package is an authentic RFC
   79 MISMATCH, i.e., the RFC differ from the authentic RFC
6 FETCH-FAIL

 Note that not all authentic RFC documents have the same license,  
 some of them
 are probably even DFSG compliant...

 Can you name one such license that is DFSG-free?

 RFC's published before 1989 may be in the public domain, since they  
 don't contain a copyright notice, but the RFC editor claim that the  
 new copying conditions apply retroactively.

I don't see any reason we should honor retroactive claims of copyright.  If
the RFCs were genuinely placed in the public domain, then this can't be
revoked; true public domain means that there is no longer a copyright
which applies to the work, and therefore no license is needed.  If the RFCs
were /not/ placed in the public domain, the question then is, who holds the
copyright on them?  Only if the IETF is the copyright holder should we need
to honor their attempts to relicense.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: delay of the full etch freeze

2006-10-17 Thread Steve Langasek

On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 10:38:26PM -0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
  On Thu, Oct 12, 2006 at 10:22:43PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:

  [Charles Plessy]
   The rationale is that the 8th is old freeze deadline minus 10
   days, so it was not completely unreasonnable to take this day as
   the deadline for having new packages in Etch.

  I find this completely unreasonable.  If someone waited that late in
  the release process before uploading a package they knew would have to
  go through NEW, they can not expect the package to make it into Etch.
  New packages should have had at least a few weeks in unstable to allow
  problems to be detected before heading for testing.

  So I would recommend against moving the freeze deadline to allow
  packages in NEW to enter.

  Yes, this is my official position on the question (dunno about Andi's, I'm
  replying to email off-line at the moment and haven't checked with him, but I
  would guess his position is similar).

  The only packages in NEW that I'm inclined to worry about are those that fix
  release-critical bugs.

 Was there a reason this was not said when I asked:

 http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2006/09/msg00315.html

That it wasn't release-critical, so was lost under 200 other mails that
were. ;)

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 01:02:45PM +, Jason Spiro wrote:
 Hi all,

Hi there.

 For example, when a person types newbie commands like help or kde
 (which is bound to something already) or the DOS commands del or ren
 (which are not), we should point them to more help. (In case anyone here
 has ever watched a real clueless newbie struggle: What are other
 commands that 100% clueless newbies often type?)

I think 'help' is by far the most common one ('?' might be close too).
Currently 'help' brings bash's help which might not be what a newbie
expected. Some (older?) people might even try pressing F1 and see what
happens [0].

I remember back in 2000 providing a Debian package called 'ayuda' ('help', in
Spanish) developed by members of my local IEEE Student Branch.  This package
included just a simple shell script ('ayuda') and a number of text files.
When the script was called it would show up a dialog(1) menu a user could
navigate and use to access the manuals included. Manuals were ordered in
'user', 'admin' and 'programming' topics. The 'user' topic would tell him how
to use shell commands, read e-mail, use a text editor (Joe, Vi or Emacs), and
configure his environment.

It would also tell the users how to use the system's proper documentation
(manpages and info) and it would also point to more documentation (HOWTOs and
locally installed documentation).

The tool was abandoned and, after trying to get some community development, I
removed it from Debian. 

I guess it would be nice to have something similar. You cannot replace 'help'
(if using Bash, Bash will answer) but a package could provide a 'helpme'
command [1][2] which did something similar.

Right now such a help program should work both in a console and in an X
display (if it detects one) should point users also to the documentation
available in Desktop environments (if available), to (Debian-specific)
documentation packages (like 'doc-debian' or the 'quick-reference') and to
(Debian-specific) use of dwww/dhelp/doc-central.

 What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that
 indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a
 wishlist against to request that such help be added?

Since there is no package providing that tool I would say 'general'. However,
filing bugs vs. general doesn't mean they will get fixed by themselves.  I
think that it would be much better if somebody sat down and wrote a Debian
help system that provided some Debian-specific things and integrated
properly with both gnome-help and khelpcenter.

Regards

Javier

[0] Many MS-DOS programs (such as Wordperfect, Lotus 1-2-3 and the like)
mapped F1 was always mapped to the 'help' key. This is still true in many
(desktop) environments and applications.

[1] At the very least:
$ cat helpme
#!/bin/sh

echo Don't panic!

[2] Bonus points if someone figures a way to l10n that 'help' call, since
non-english spearkers might write something different such as: 'ayuda',
'hilfe', 'aide', 'aiuto', 'ajuda', etc.


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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread David Nusinow

On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:42AM +1000, Andrew Vaughan wrote:
 What's really needed is better help for newbies dumped unexpectedly at the 
 command-line because X wasn't installed/properly configured/didn't start.

What's really needed is to fix our X autoconfiguration mechanisms so that
this doesn't happen. One of my target goals is to work on this post-etch,
and happily upstream is working hard on it as well. If people want to help
with this issue, please follow up to debian-x.

 - David Nusinow


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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread Roberto C. Sanchez

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 07:56:00PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:42AM +1000, Andrew Vaughan wrote:
  What's really needed is better help for newbies dumped unexpectedly at the 
  command-line because X wasn't installed/properly configured/didn't start.
 
 What's really needed is to fix our X autoconfiguration mechanisms so that
 this doesn't happen. One of my target goals is to work on this post-etch,
 and happily upstream is working hard on it as well. If people want to help
 with this issue, please follow up to debian-x.
 

IIRC, the majority of the I ended up at a text prompt, what do I do
now? questions we see on d-u are not X configuration problems.  They
are newbies who pick all the defaults and up without X on their systems
entirely.

Regards,

-Roberto
-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com


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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread David Nusinow

On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 08:27:46PM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
 On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 07:56:00PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
  On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:42AM +1000, Andrew Vaughan wrote:
   What's really needed is better help for newbies dumped unexpectedly at 
   the 
   command-line because X wasn't installed/properly configured/didn't start.
  
  What's really needed is to fix our X autoconfiguration mechanisms so that
  this doesn't happen. One of my target goals is to work on this post-etch,
  and happily upstream is working hard on it as well. If people want to help
  with this issue, please follow up to debian-x.
  
 
 IIRC, the majority of the I ended up at a text prompt, what do I do
 now? questions we see on d-u are not X configuration problems.  They
 are newbies who pick all the defaults and up without X on their systems
 entirely.

This should be fixed for etch, afaik. If you just choose the defaults,
you'll end up with a gnome desktop installation and X up and running by
default.

 - David Nusinow


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Looking for Debian Packaging expert

2006-10-17 Thread Mahmood Sheikh

Hi all,
I work for ACCESS, Inc. here in Sunnyvale, California. We are looking
for someone who is adept in Debian Packaging. This person would deliver
3 or 4 hourly sessions to our employees just to educate them on benefits
of using Debian Packaging and answer any questions that our employees
(internal developers) might have. 
 
It would not be training sessions but it would be semi technical talks
on how to use and deploy Debian packages mechanism and discussing the
advantages of using Debian packages for distribution of software
internally.

Regards,
-mahmood

Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread Ron Johnson

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 10/17/06 19:35, David Nusinow wrote:
 On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 08:27:46PM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote:
 On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 07:56:00PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:42AM +1000, Andrew Vaughan wrote:
[snip]
 This should be fixed for etch, afaik. If you just choose the defaults,
 you'll end up with a gnome desktop installation and X up and running by
 default.

A deep well of curmudgeonly geekiness is welling up within me, about
to burst forth with an overwhelming NOOO!!!

We who used MS-DOS in 1985 were not appreciably smarter than people
are now, yet we figured out DIR  COPY  DEL  CD.  A HELP command
and a set of DOS-friendly aliases (and/or scripts) would/should be
adequate.

After all, this isn't OpenVMS...

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is common sense really valid?
For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that common sense is obviously wrong.
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Fv/zkJDryyt5gsfx+nVCIjM=
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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?

2006-10-17 Thread Alexey Feldgendler

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:02:45 +0700, Jason Spiro  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



For example, when a person types newbie commands like help or kde
(which is bound to something already) or the DOS commands del or ren
(which are not), we should point them to more help. (In case anyone here
has ever watched a real clueless newbie struggle: What are other
commands that 100% clueless newbies often type?)


Seems to me that the times of DOS have passed.

Back in those times, users would be familiar with the command line of one  
OS and be frustrated with another's. Today's typical user is rather  
familiar with a GUI and will be frustrated by a different GUI. For  
example, Windows users are likely to have a hard time looking for the  
Start button in Gnome.


In a desktop environment, the user needs to do a special action to run the  
shell (such as starting the Gnome Terminal). It's somewhat unlikely that  
the user ends up in the scary black screen by accident, and even then he  
can easily find the familiar close button in the title bar of the window.  
My point is that today's user only gets a shell when he wants a shell, and  
users who don't know how to use the shell won't want it.


To really help newbies migrate from other OS, it's better to improve the  
desktop GUIs and make them provide more hints etc. Adding newbie  
assistance to the shell wouldn't help many users, for the reasons  
described above. On the other hand, it will annoy advanced users for sure  
because any newbie detection would be an heuristic which inevitably  
fails from time to time. Even if the hints need only to be disabled once,  
it will be annoying to do so every time when maintaining a cluster of  
Debian machines.


So, my opinion is: please don't include things like this in default Debian  
installations.



--
Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com


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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?


[I have snipped everything except the words I am replying to.]

2006/10/17, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I think 'help' is by far the most common one ('?' might be close too).
Currently 'help' brings bash's help which might not be what a newbie
expected. Some (older?) people might even try pressing F1 and see what
happens [0].


In xterm my F1 key causes a beep. Perhaps there's a way to remap the
F1 key in bash and/or readline?


I remember back in 2000 providing a Debian package called 'ayuda' ('help', in
Spanish) developed by members of my local IEEE Student Branch.  This package
included just a simple shell script ('ayuda') and a number of text files.
When the script was called it would show up a dialog(1) menu a user could
navigate and use to access the manuals included. ...
I guess it would be nice to have something similar.


Interesting idea. But, since a) most people have web access nowadays
and b) people with no web access in a new Linux install can reboot
into Windows if they need web access, therefore I personally wouldn't
want to maintain such a package. Of course, you could get such a
script into Debian yourself (maybe in package debian-goodies or
elsewhere) if you wanted.


 What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that
 indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a
 wishlist against to request that such help be added?

Since there is no package providing that tool I would say 'general'. However,
filing bugs vs. general doesn't mean they will get fixed by themselves.  I
think that it would be much better if somebody sat down and wrote a Debian
help system that provided some Debian-specific things and integrated
properly with both gnome-help and khelpcenter.


Is more Debian-specific help really needed for KDE/Gnome users? IIRC
Synaptic comes with Gnome help files. Also, there are already lots of
HTML-format manuals for Debian.


[2] Bonus points if someone figures a way to l10n that 'help' call, since
non-english spearkers might write something different such as: 'ayuda',
'hilfe', 'aide', 'aiuto', 'ajuda', etc.


I really like that idea.

Cheers,
Jason

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I also provide training and spyware removal services for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
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Bug#393849: ITP: pcopy -- multithreaded (raw) disk copying program

2006-10-17 Thread Aníbal Monsalve Salazar

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Anibal Monsalve Salazar [EMAIL PROTECTED]

* Package name: pcopy
  Version : 1.5
  Upstream Author : Peter Eriksson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
* URL : http://directory.fsf.org/sysadmin/Backup/pcopy.html
* License : GNU General Public License
  Programming Lang: C
  Description : multithreaded (raw) disk copying program

  Tool for large disk to disk copying.
 
  pcopy is intended to be used when doing large disk (partition)
  to disk (partition) copying where dd is just too slow (and error
  prone). It also displays a progress counter while doing the
  copying.

Aníbal Monsalve Salazar
--
http://v7w.com/anibal


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Re: Looking for Debian Packaging expert