Re: Debian package manager privilege escalation attack

2021-08-11 Thread Andrey Rahmatullin
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 10:55:44PM -0500, Brian Thompson wrote:
> Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention. This are very real
> vulnerabilities. 
How are they vulnerabilities?


> NPM has similar issues with stopping malicious packages from being
> published to the FTP server.
That's not what is the article about.

> Malicious packages can and do make it into the dependency sets of
> popular packages. This is a problem. I don't think that any amount of
> human effort and attention can prevent malicious packages from making it
> to the FTP server.
This, again, is not what is the article about. Malicious packages don't
need these "vulnerabilities" as they can put files to your file system
directly.

> Perhaps a workaround for users right now would be to have a user with
> package management sudo access, and not much else. 
Ah, so you haven't read the article.

> Also, we should notify our upstream projects, and the Linux community as
> a whole, of these vulnerabilities. I believe that to be a moral
> obligation.
...

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Debian package manager privilege escalation attack

2021-08-11 Thread Andrey Rahmatullin
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 11:30:27PM -0400, Timothy M Butterworth wrote:
> I just ran across this article
> https://blog.ikuamike.io/posts/2021/package_managers_privesc/ I tested
> the attacks on Debian 11 and they work successfully giving me a root
> shell prompt.
I don't think calling this "privilege escalation" or "attack" is correct.
The premise of the post is "the user should not be a root/admin user but
has been assigned sudo permissions to run the package manager" and one
doesn't really need a long article to prove that it's not secure.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Debian package manager privilege escalation attack

2021-08-11 Thread Niels Thykier
Timothy M Butterworth:
> All,
> 
> I just ran across this article
> https://blog.ikuamike.io/posts/2021/package_managers_privesc/ I tested
> the attacks on Debian 11 and they work successfully giving me a root
> shell prompt.
> 
> Tim
> 

Hi Tim,

All of the attacks presented assumes that the local user has "sudo"
permissions to run apt and use that as the basis for escalating
privileges (not commenting on yum or snap).

I think it is a good demonstration of how some sudo policies are too
lenient and can be exploited.  Though I am not sure this is a bug in
apt, as I do not think apt ever promised to be "safe" to use from a
constrained sudo policy.

Note that the blog post itself also mentions this:

"""
[...] In certain cases the user should not be a root/admin user but has
been assigned sudo permissions to run the package manager only for
package management purposes.

We’ll look at how this permission can be abused to gain root access to
the machine via a root shell.
"""
(from the "Introduction")

My reading is that "this permission" refers to the "assigned sudo
permissions".

Thanks,
~Niels



Re: Steam Deck: good news for Linux gaming, bad news for Debian :(

2021-08-11 Thread Paul Wise
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 3:22 AM Timothy M Butterworth wrote:

> Debian is missing KDE's Amarok music manager.

Amarok was removed as it required the obsolete Qt 4 library. Now that
upstream has finally ported it to Qt5, it could be reintroduced to
Debian.

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/amarok
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1055955/removed-290-2-from-unstable/
https://bugs.debian.org/935022
https://amarok.kde.org/en/node/890
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ch05.html#reintroducing-pkgs

> VirtualBox is not available on Debian 11.

VirtualBox is not suitable for Debian stable because of how upstream
does security updates.

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/virtualbox
https://bugs.debian.org/794466

Also, it isn't in main because it needs a non-free compiler to build the BIOS.

> I got tired of the constant need to download all of the packages.
> I am on a metered internet connection.

There are a couple of Debian initiatives that could help here:

https://debdelta.debian.net/
https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/Spec/DeltaDebs

> where people can create Repo's of newer software versions to
> use with stable Debian.

We have backports for that, and there is the bikesheds idea.

https://backports.debian.org/

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise



Accepted pywps 4.4.5-1~exp1 (source) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Re: Debian package manager privilege escalation attack

2021-08-11 Thread Brian Thompson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Wed, 2021-08-11 at 23:30 -0400, Timothy M Butterworth wrote:
> All,
> 
> I just ran across this article
> https://blog.ikuamike.io/posts/2021/package_managers_privesc/ I tested
> the attacks on Debian 11 and they work successfully giving me a root
> shell prompt.
> 
> Tim

Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention. This are very real
vulnerabilities. NPM has similar issues with stopping malicious packages
from being published to the FTP server. They have made some improvements
after they were aware of the issue, but I haven't heard any new
developments at NPM about how to stop malicious packages from making it
to the server.  Malicious packages can and do make it into the
dependency sets of popular packages. This is a problem. I don't think
that any amount of human effort and attention can prevent malicious
packages from making it to the FTP server. I think that AI would be
better-equipped to handle the critical checks necessary for FTP upload
security to be top-of-the-line. The AI couldn't just be left unchecked,
though, and humans are still needed to monitor, tweak, and make sure the
AI is working and behaving in a responsible manner. As far as behaving
responsibly is concerned, the main issue I foresee is having the AI flag
false positives, and making sure the AI doesn't evolve into something
insidious. I'm not sure if that last point can exist within limited AI,
because I am not an AI expert.

Perhaps a workaround for users right now would be to have a user with
package management sudo access, and not much else. sudo access for
package managers would have to be disallowed at the root and [other]
user levels. I am not even sure that this would even work for all use
cases, and having a manual ad-hoc hotfix is far from ideal. What does
the Debian community think about this?

Also, we should notify our upstream projects, and the Linux community as
a whole, of these vulnerabilities. I believe that to be a moral
obligation.
- -- 
Best regards,

Brian T.
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Debian package manager privilege escalation attack

2021-08-11 Thread Timothy M Butterworth
All,

I just ran across this article
https://blog.ikuamike.io/posts/2021/package_managers_privesc/ I tested
the attacks on Debian 11 and they work successfully giving me a root
shell prompt.

Tim



Re: Steam Deck: good news for Linux gaming, bad news for Debian :(

2021-08-11 Thread Timothy M Butterworth
I am fine with Debian's release cycle but It would be nice to see more
packages. For example Debian is missing KDE's Amarok music manager. I
am happy to see Debian 11 gained KDE Elisa music manager. I am sad to
see that VirtualBox is not available on Debian 11. I had to jerry-rig
it using the Ubuntu Focal repo from Oracle.

OpenSUSE Tumbleweed is a good rolling distro, I am surprised Steam did
not use it. OpenSUSE was the repo Plasma Active shipped with. I tried
Tumbleweed but I got tired of the constant need to download all of the
packages. I am on a metered internet connection and a Rolling Distro
is just not for me.

Debian needs to have a mechanism like the openSUSE OBS Open Build
Service, where people can create Repo's of newer software versions to
use with stable Debian. On openSUSE I use the stable KDE Repo's to
keep KDE up-to-date with the latest stable releases.

Tim



Re: Code

2021-08-11 Thread Paul Wise
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 12:24 PM Xavier  wrote:

> Second: a lot of package have also their public source repo. See
> https://tracker.debian.org and follow "VCS" links to access to
> git/svn/... repo.

Aside from the VCS links on packages that use a VCS, the package
tracker also links to sources.debian.org, which lets you view Debian
source packages in a browser, and codesearch.debian.net, which lets
you search the Debian source packages.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise



Accepted hurd 1:0.9.git20210811-3 (source all) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Accepted testssl.sh 3.0.5+dfsg1-1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Accepted arch-install-scripts 24-1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 18:43:17 -0400
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Maintainer: Unit 193 
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 .
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Accepted python-pretty-yaml 21.8.3-1 (source all) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 21:56:43 +0200
Source: python-pretty-yaml
Binary: python3-pretty-yaml
Architecture: source all
Version: 21.8.3-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Sascha Steinbiss 
Changed-By: Sascha Steinbiss 
Description:
 python3-pretty-yaml - module to produce pretty and readable YAML-serialized 
data (Pytho
Changes:
 python-pretty-yaml (21.8.3-1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream release.
   * Bump Standards-Version.
   * Set Rules-Requires-Root.
   * Use debhelper 13.
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Accepted nodejs 12.22.5~dfsg-2 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 21:06:00 +0200
Source: nodejs
Architecture: source
Version: 12.22.5~dfsg-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Javascript Maintainers 

Changed-By: Jérémy Lal 
Closes: 992112
Changes:
 nodejs (12.22.5~dfsg-2) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * ares_compat.patch let node compile against ares < 1.17.2
 Closes: #992112
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Accepted ucx 1.11.1~rc1-1 (source amd64) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 18:36:11 +0100
Source: ucx
Binary: libucx-dev libucx0 libucx0-dbgsym ucx-utils ucx-utils-dbgsym
Architecture: source amd64
Version: 1.11.1~rc1-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Science Maintainers 

Changed-By: Alastair McKinstry 
Description:
 libucx-dev - Header files for UCX library
 libucx0- Unified Communication X libraries
 ucx-utils  - Utilities for the UCX messaging library
Changes:
 ucx (1.11.1~rc1-1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream release
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Accepted node-tar 6.1.7+~cs11.3.10-1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 21:30:03 +0200
Source: node-tar
Architecture: source
Version: 6.1.7+~cs11.3.10-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Javascript Maintainers 

Changed-By: Yadd 
Closes: 992110 992111
Changes:
 node-tar (6.1.7+~cs11.3.10-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Team upload
   * Back to unstable
   * New upstream version 6.1.7+~cs11.3.10
 (Closes: #992110, #992111, CVE-2021-32803 CVE-2021-32804)
   * Update disabled tests (need an updated tap)
   * Update autopkgtest files
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Accepted hurd 1:0.9.git20210811-2 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:29:03 +
Source: hurd
Architecture: source
Version: 1:0.9.git20210811-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: GNU Hurd Maintainers 
Changed-By: Samuel Thibault 
Changes:
 hurd (1:0.9.git20210811-2) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * debian/patches/fix-symlink-translator: Fix block allocation when
 converting a symlink to a translator node.
   * debian/patches/fix_fsys_init_parent_proc: Fix setting bootstrap tasks
 arguments.
   * debian/patches/fix-install-pci-arbiter: Fix pci-arbiter showing up in
 /servers/bus/pci
   * debian/patches/fix_libmachdev_dosync: Fix libmachdev behavior at shutdown.
   * debian/patches/next_task: Rename options for bootstrap chain.
   * debian/patches/fix-symlink-frobbing: Fix frobbing symlinks. This should
 reduce spurious error correction from ext2fs.
   * debian/patches/fix-sync: Fix syncing nodes getting removed.
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Accepted libsdl2 2.0.16+dfsg1-1 (source) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:29:44 +0100
Source: libsdl2
Architecture: source
Version: 2.0.16+dfsg1-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian SDL packages maintainers 

Changed-By: Simon McVittie 
Changes:
 libsdl2 (2.0.16+dfsg1-1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   [ Simon McVittie ]
   * New upstream release
   * d/rules: Pass CPPFLAGS and LDFLAGS while linking test programs
   * d/copyright: Update
   * d/copyright: Exclude less of src/hidapi/
   * d/rules: Improve handling of Linux-specific features
   * d/rules: Check for Hurd correctly
   * d/rules: Explicitly disable libdecor for now (ITP: #988116)
   * d/rules: Enable Pipewire audio driver.
 The required version is currently only in experimental, but will
 presumably go to unstable after Debian 11 is released.
   * Drop Wayland-related patches, applied upstream
   * d/p/no-libdir.patch: Refresh.
 The patch conflicted with upstream updates to sdl2-config.cmake.in,
 but we don't actually need to patch that file for multiarch
 co-installation anyway: the file generated from it gets installed into
 the ${libdir}, so it's OK for it to have architecture-dependent contents.
   * d/patches: Refresh
   * d/docs: Install README.md, not README.txt
   * d/libsdl2-2.0-0.symbols: Update
   * d/p/Revert-*:
 Revert display mode setting changes for now.
 These seem to trigger a regression in full-screen programs when
 running under Xwayland: Xrandr fails, leaving the Xwayland display
 in a bad state that causes subsequent SDL programs to fail, even after
 downgrading SDL again. (See upstream bug libsdl-org/SDL#4630)
 .
   [ Guido Günther ]
   * debian: Add salsa-ci integration
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Accepted edk2 2021.08~rc0-2 (source) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 11:24:42 -0600
Source: edk2
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Version: 2021.08~rc0-2
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian QEMU Team 
Changed-By: dann frazier 
Closes: 992100
Changes:
 edk2 (2021.08~rc0-2) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * d/p/ftbfs-gcc-11.patch: Use -march=armv7-a+fp instead of -march=armv7-a
 to fix FTBFS w/ the new gcc-11 defaults. (Closes: #992100)
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Accepted nodejs 12.22.5~dfsg-1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:36:57 +0200
Source: nodejs
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Version: 12.22.5~dfsg-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Javascript Maintainers 

Changed-By: Jérémy Lal 
Changes:
 nodejs (12.22.5~dfsg-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream version 12.22.5~dfsg
 + Follow-up fix for CVE-2021-22930 as the issue was not completely
   resolved by the version 12.22.4 (High).
 + CVE-2021-22939: Incomplete validation of rejectUnauthorized
   parameter (Low).
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Accepted egl-wayland 1:1.1.7-2 (source) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 20:13:07 +0300
Source: egl-wayland
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Architecture: source
Version: 1:1.1.7-2
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Timo Aaltonen 
Changed-By: Timo Aaltonen 
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 egl-wayland (1:1.1.7-2) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * symbols: Added.
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Re: Gitlab support for Debian repositories (Was: Regarding the new "Debian User Repository")

2021-08-11 Thread Holger Levsen
Hi Wouter,

sorry for the late reply but I think it's still relevant...
(just thus rather leaving almost full quote as context.)

On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 11:25:26AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 12:31:10PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 02:09:36PM +0200, Mathieu Parent (Debian) wrote:
> > > > Do you have plans to support publishing builds only if they've produced
> > > > bit by bit identical results on several builders? IOW, do you plan to
> > > > support reproducible builds? :)
> > > There is no specific support for reproducible builds. Currently,
[...]
> > > But reproducibility can be tested in GItlab jobs, before the upload.
> > that's nice, but rather theoretic (however common it is today) in practice 
> > :)
> > It would be really interesting / a game changer, to have a publishing option
> > which would only allow publishing of builds proven in practice to be 
> > identical.
> It's actually fairly easy to do that:
> 
> - Create two runners, with different tags (e.g., one tagged "build1",
>   and one tagged "build2"). One can be a docker runner, the other a
>   shell runner, just to keep things interesting.
> - Create two jobs that build the same source in ways that might trigger
>   reproducability issues (I'm sure you're better at this than me). Make
>   sure that they don't store their artifacts in the same location (e.g.,
>   one job runs "dcmd mv ../*.changes products/build1/", and the other
>   one does "dcmd mv ../*.changes products/build2/").
> - Have a third job that depends on both the above two jobs, and that
>   runs diffoscope over the artifacts of both jobs. If and only if the
>   diffoscope doesn't reveal any issues, run dput to upload the packages.
> 
> I think the salsa-CI team can easily add support for this to their
> generic pipeline...

that would be really nice, thank you for explaining this idea so well!

just one thing: here we do *not* want to trigger reproducibility issues,
rather the opposite: if we manage to do two builds resulting in exactlty
the same .deb(s), we are happy.

because here, our focus would be to publish things :)

elsewhere we do have a well known setup to find problems... 
(=tests.r-b.o/debian)


-- 
cheers,
Holger

 ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
 ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
 ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀  OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
 ⠈⠳⣄

When this virus is over, I still want some of y'all to stay away from me.


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Accepted oz 0.17.0-5 (source) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Maintainer: Simon Josefsson 
Changed-By: Simon Josefsson 
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 oz (0.17.0-5) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
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Accepted jabberd2 2.7.0-3 (source) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Maintainer: Debian XMPP Maintainers 
Changed-By: Simon Josefsson 
Changes:
 jabberd2 (2.7.0-3) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * [113d65b] Use Standards-Version: 4.5.1.
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Accepted hdf5 1.10.6+repack-5 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 16:33:03 +0200
Source: hdf5
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Version: 1.10.6+repack-5
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Gilles Filippini 
Changed-By: Gilles Filippini 
Closes: 992068
Changes:
 hdf5 (1.10.6+repack-5) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   [ Andreas Beckmann ]
   * libhdf5-mpich-dev: bump libmpich-dev dependency to (>= 3.3-3~) (Closes:
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Re: Code

2021-08-11 Thread Wookey
On 2021-08-11 14:08 +0200, Hans wrote:
> And best: It is all GPL licensed,

It's all free software, but many licences are used, not just the GPL.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Accepted redis 5:6.2.5-2 (source) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Chris Lamb 
Changed-By: Chris Lamb 
Changes:
 redis (5:6.2.5-2) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * Explicitly specify USE_JEMALLOC to override upstream's detection of ARM
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Re: Steam Deck: good news for Linux gaming, bad news for Debian :(

2021-08-11 Thread Theodore Ts'o
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 04:08:13PM +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> I think we have more systemic issues. I am quite impressed how Nix/NixOS
> is able to pull so many packages and modules with so few people. But
> they use only one workflow, one way to package, one init system, etc.
> Looking at Arch, one workflow, one way to package, one init system, etc.
> Looking at Fedora, one workflow, one way to package, one init system.

I wouldn't call it "issues" per se.  It's all about trade-offs.
Having only one way to do things helps velocity, but it also impedes
flexibility, which some users and developers value.

Having a faster release cycle either requires a lot more engineering
resources (volunteers or paid, depending on the distro) and/or it
forces users to continually update to new major releases if they want
to continue getting security updates.

There still *are* enterprise customers who like the longer release
cycles.  Some of them even use Debian and have privately referred to
it as "their secret advantage".  Whether it is a large number or not,
and whether they are contributing back to the Debian community (and
whether that is important to us) are different questions.

Requiring that all packages use the common distro-shipped shared
libraries (or Perl or Python components) as opposed to shipping their
own is another engineering tradeoff where there may be some
advantages, but also disadvantages, in terms of effort, pain if the
shared libraries or Perl/Python components laugh at the concept of
"stable API's", and userspace package upstreams that want to work
across a large number of distributions all supporting different
versions of their dependencies, and/or upstream that want to move
faster than Debian is willing to release.

These are all tradeoffs, and there is no one right answer.  That may
be painful for those who believe that there is, and it is a hidden
assumption in the blithe assertion that Debian should be "The
Universal OS".  Unfortunately, these tradeoffs mean that there can
*be* no single "Universal OS".  There will always be a need for
different horses for different courses.

Debian has taken a strong opinionated stance on many of these
tradeoffs, and that's fine.  It's not necessarily a problem, except
insofar that some people want Debian to be applicable for a particular
use case, such as for example Steam OS.  It might be the answer is
that Debian simply can't be as Universal as we might aspire to be.

Cheers,

- Ted



Accepted libspf2 1.2.10-7.1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2021 13:46:49 +0200
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Magnus Holmgren 
Changed-By: Salvatore Bonaccorso 
Changes:
 libspf2 (1.2.10-7.1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Non-maintainer upload.
   * spf_compile.c: Correct size of ds_avail (CVE-2021-20314)
   * Sanity check for sprintf
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Accepted cccc 1:3.1.4+dfsg1-1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 15:59:46 +0100
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Version: 1:3.1.4+dfsg1-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Colin Watson 
Changed-By: Colin Watson 
Closes: 992093
Changes:
  (1:3.1.4+dfsg1-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   [ Debian Janitor ]
   * Bump debhelper from old 9 to 12.
   * Rely on pre-initialized dpkg-architecture variables.
 .
   [ Colin Watson ]
   * Repack original source tarball without test/prn13.* and test/prn14.* due
 to non-DFSG-free licences (closes: #992093).
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Accepted linux-signed-arm64 5.13.9+1~exp2 (source) into experimental, experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Kernel Team 
Changed-By: Bastian Blank 
Changes:
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 .
   * Sign kernel from linux 5.13.9-1~exp2
 .
   * Fix linux-cpupower installation.
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Accepted linux-signed-amd64 5.13.9+1~exp2 (source) into experimental, experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 21:12:41 +0200
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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Kernel Team 
Changed-By: Bastian Blank 
Changes:
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 .
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 .
   * Fix linux-cpupower installation.
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Accepted linux-signed-i386 5.13.9+1~exp2 (source) into experimental, experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 21:12:41 +0200
Source: linux-signed-i386
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Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Kernel Team 
Changed-By: Bastian Blank 
Changes:
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 .
   * Sign kernel from linux 5.13.9-1~exp2
 .
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Re: Steam Deck: good news for Linux gaming, bad news for Debian :(

2021-08-11 Thread Vincent Bernat
 ❦ 11 August 2021 11:27 +02, Steffen Möller:

> I have no exact idea what to change, though. A rolling Debian would be
> cool, yes, but also a bit late when compared with environments that
> Conda offers or the ease that comes with multiple installations of conda
> to e.g. avoid name conflicts. If we had a chroot for which you do not
> need to be root, then together with snapshot.d.o we would be darn close
> to what Conda is offering. I have no idea how to get there, though. With
> singularity maybe?

We package only a very small subset of Conda, I don't see in what
universe we could be competitive, rolling or not rolling.

I think we have more systemic issues. I am quite impressed how Nix/NixOS
is able to pull so many packages and modules with so few people. But
they use only one workflow, one way to package, one init system, etc.
Looking at Arch, one workflow, one way to package, one init system, etc.
Looking at Fedora, one workflow, one way to package, one init system.
Let me take again the example with Nix. Anyone can do a simple pull
request and gets its change accepted. Each package has a maintainer, but
the ownership is quite weak. The maintainer may say no, but if they are
just busy, someone else may merge the change if it looks reasonable.

In Debian, we have many workflow (BTS, MR to submit changes, Git, not
Git, Git workflow 1, Git workflow 2, Git workflow 3), many ways to
package (just one makefile, old debhelper, new dh), many init systems.
And the ownership problem prevents people to help from time to time.
There are so many packages I come accross that could just be updated to
a more recent version and looks like semi-abandoned but I just don't try
any more because there are so many ways to fail.

I still trust Debian to be the most technically excellent distribution,
but that's not all it makes to stay relevant. My point is that it would
help to reduce the technical liberties we take in Debian. However, I
don't think that's who we are.

Today, it is very difficult to only use Debian own packages. We just
tell people "just add random repositories". Nix and Arch are able to
have almost everything packaged. Nix is able to include into a single
workflow most other language ecosystems.
-- 
The last thing one knows in constructing a work is what to put first.
-- Blaise Pascal



Re: Arch triplet for uefi applications

2021-08-11 Thread Steve McIntyre
On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 03:19:10PM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
>Bastien Roucariès wrote:
>> I am going to compile shell.efi from source.
>> 
>> I whish to install to something stable, but I need an arch triplet in order 
>> to 
>> put in a multiarch (like) location.
>> 
>> I suppose that it will be  x86_64-efi-none (or maybe x86_64-windows-efi  )  
>> and 
>> i686-uefi-none ?

As Simon says, *definitely* not *windows* here please! :-)

>I don't think GRUB's x86_64-efi is an architecture triplet, just a
>GRUB-specific target.
>
>UEFI is effectively an "operating system", insofar as it provides a
>runtime environment with some baseline properties and a set of system
>calls. uefi definitely isn't a "vendor", and the OS shouldn't be "none"
>since there is an OS of sorts.
>
>For that reason, Rust uses the target names "aarch64-unknown-uefi",
>"i686-unknown-uefi", and "x86_64-unknown-uefi". Those seem like the
>right names for these targets in other toolchains, as well.

Nod, agreed. I think that makes sense.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
< sladen> I actually stayed in a hotel and arrived to find a post-it
  note stuck to the mini-bar saying "Paul: This fridge and
  fittings are the correct way around and do not need altering"



Accepted blender 2.93.2+dfsg-5 (source) into experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:25:48 +0200
Source: blender
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Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Multimedia Maintainers 
Changed-By: Matteo F. Vescovi 
Changes:
 blender (2.93.2+dfsg-5) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * debian/patches/: patchset updated
 - #0006 updated and renamed
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Re: Code

2021-08-11 Thread Hans
Am Mittwoch, 11. August 2021, 13:34:27 CEST schrieb Horler, Johannes:
Hi Johannes,

every code of every debian package in debian/main is downloadable from the 
repo. 

You also get all needed stuff for the most used compiler and interpereter 
languages, C, python, perl, lua, java, whatever you want.

Every stuff you need is just for free and available. 

There is also a great community of developers, who will be happy to welcome 
you.

Documentation is available in many languages, English of course, German, 
French whatever you need. Even Chinese and other special languages.

So, do whatever you want with it. 

And best: It is all GPL licensed, so no hassle with patents or factories - 
freedom in every way!

Isn't that great? 

So, have a lot of fun, you are welcome!

Best regards

Hans
> Dear Debian Team,
> 
> 
> hopefully I am writing this to the right email address. (In case I am not, I
> would be happy about being refered.) Recently I got interested in operating
> systems. Now I want to try to experiment with modifying one.
> 
> Is the complete source code of any Debian Version available somewhere in
> full (meaning everything ultimately written - in translated form - to the
> bootable device)? Maybe I am a bit slow to understand but I have failed to
> find something like it. Therefore I have decided to just ask you.
> 
> 
> Sincerely
> Johannes Horler
> 
> Student der Humanmedizin
> Universitätsmedizin Charité Berlin
> Gemeinsame Fakultät von Freier Universität Berlin und Humboldt-Universität
> zu Berlin



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.


Re: Code

2021-08-11 Thread Peter Pentchev
On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 11:34:27AM +, Horler, Johannes wrote:
> Dear Debian Team,
> 
> 
> hopefully I am writing this to the right email address. (In case I am
> not, I would be happy about being refered.) Recently I got interested in
> operating systems. Now I want to try to experiment with modifying one.
> 
> Is the complete source code of any Debian Version available somewhere in
> full (meaning everything ultimately written - in translated form - to
> the bootable device)? Maybe I am a bit slow to understand but I have
> failed to find something like it. Therefore I have decided to just ask
> you.

Every file that is put on the new system by the Debian installer (any of
the Debian installers, and also any of the so-called bootstrap tools)
ultimately comes from one of the Debian packages. Unlike some other
systems (e.g. FreeBSD), there is no monolithic "core" component
containing the most important programs, no "base system"; this approach
has both benefits and drawbacks, but it is the way Debian (and actually,
most of the Linux distributions) works.

There is also a major distinction between the so-called binary packages
that are installed on the system, and the source packages that are used
to build (compile, adapt, modify in other ways) them from the sources of
the programs as distributed by the multitude of their respective
authors. All of the binary packages and all of the source packages are
freely available for download either on the Debian mirrors or, for older
versions, in the Debian archive (http://archive.debian.org/) or via
the snapshot.debian.org service.

So the answer to your question is "look at what packages are installed,
look at what versions those packages are, and then you can use either
the `apt` tool or some other mechanism to download the source packages".
The list of packages currently installed, as well as their versions, may
be obtained by the `dpkg -l` or `dpkg-query -W` command (both have many
options that make it easier for the result to be processed by automated
tools or to provide more information). The way to obtain the source of
a specific Debian package is `apt source pkgname` or (better suited for
automated tools) `apt-get source pkgname`; both forms allow an explicit
`pkgname=version` specification instead of the plain package name.
You may find more information about the package system, obtaining
packages, and the format of the packages themselves, in the various
pieces of Debian documentation, e.g.:

  https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/

  https://www.debian.org/doc/devel-manuals#maint-guide


...and other articles and books listed at https://www.debian.org/doc/

Hope that helps! If you have any further questions, feel free to ask!

G'luck,
Peter

-- 
Peter Pentchev  r...@ringlet.net r...@debian.org p...@storpool.com
PGP key:http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc
Key fingerprint 2EE7 A7A5 17FC 124C F115  C354 651E EFB0 2527 DF13


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature


Re: Code

2021-08-11 Thread Kyle Edwards

On 8/11/21 7:34 AM, Horler, Johannes wrote:


Dear Debian Team,


hopefully I am writing this to the right email address. (In case I am 
not, I would be happy about being refered.) Recently I got interested 
in operating systems. Now I want to try to experiment with modifying one.


Is the complete source code of any Debian Version available somewhere 
in full (meaning everything ultimately written - in translated form - 
to the bootable device)? Maybe I am a bit slow to understand but I 
have failed to find something like it. Therefore I have decided to 
just ask you.


Yes, all of the source code for Debian is available, though it's divided 
into thousands of different packages by different authors. You can find 
links to the source code from packages.debian.org - just search a 
package name and you should be able to find the source from there.



Which component(s) are you looking for specifically? The bootloader? The 
kernel? systemd? glibc? The core userspace utilities?



Kyle



Re: Code

2021-08-11 Thread Xavier
Le 11/08/2021 à 13:34, Horler, Johannes a écrit :
> Dear Debian Team,
> 
> 
> hopefully I am writing this to the right email address. (In case I am
> not, I would be happy about being refered.) Recently I got interested in
> operating systems. Now I want to try to experiment with modifying one.
> 
> Is the complete source code of any Debian Version available somewhere in
> full (meaning everything ultimately written - in translated form - to
> the bootable device)? Maybe I am a bit slow to understand but I have
> failed to find something like it. Therefore I have decided to just ask you.
> 
> 
> Sincerely 
> Johannes Horler

Hi,

sure, each package is published with its source code. Example:

  * install a package: apt install foo
  * get its source   : apt source foo

You just have to modify your source lists (see /etc/apt/source*): each

  deb http://... main ...

must have its

  deb-src http://... main ...

Second: a lot of package have also their public source repo. See
https://tracker.debian.org and follow "VCS" links to access to
git/svn/... repo.

Cheers,
Yadd



Code

2021-08-11 Thread Horler, Johannes
Dear Debian Team,


hopefully I am writing this to the right email address. (In case I am not, I 
would be happy about being refered.) Recently I got interested in operating 
systems. Now I want to try to experiment with modifying one.

Is the complete source code of any Debian Version available somewhere in full 
(meaning everything ultimately written - in translated form - to the bootable 
device)? Maybe I am a bit slow to understand but I have failed to find 
something like it. Therefore I have decided to just ask you.


Sincerely
Johannes Horler

Student der Humanmedizin
Universitätsmedizin Charité Berlin
Gemeinsame Fakultät von Freier Universität Berlin und Humboldt-Universität zu 
Berlin


Accepted icingaweb2-module-pdfexport 0.9.1-1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 16:09:10 +0200
Source: icingaweb2-module-pdfexport
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Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: David Kunz 
Changed-By: David Kunz 
Changes:
 icingaweb2-module-pdfexport (0.9.1-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Adding watch file.
   * Merging upstream version 0.9.1.
   * Changing copyright for David Kunz.
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Accepted icingaweb2-module-director 1.8.1-1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 23:31:21 +0200
Source: icingaweb2-module-director
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Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: David Kunz 
Changed-By: David Kunz 
Changes:
 icingaweb2-module-director (1.8.1-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Adding watch file.
   * Updating copyright for David Kunz.
   * Updating vcs in control.
   * Merging upstream version 1.8.1.
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   * Changing depends in control.
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Accepted icingaweb2-module-businessprocess 2.3.1-1 (source) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 10:31:43 +0200
Source: icingaweb2-module-businessprocess
Architecture: source
Version: 2.3.1-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: David Kunz 
Changed-By: David Kunz 
Changes:
 icingaweb2-module-businessprocess (2.3.1-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Merging upstream version 2.3.1.
   * Updating copyright.
   * Adding watch file.
   * Changing depends.
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Accepted firefox-esr 91.0esr-1 (source) into experimental, experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
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Hash: SHA256

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 11:05:38 +0900
Source: firefox-esr
Architecture: source
Version: 91.0esr-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Maintainers of Mozilla-related packages 

Changed-By: Mike Hommey 
Changes:
 firefox-esr (91.0esr-1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream release.
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Accepted firefox 91.0-2 (source) into experimental, experimental

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 07:35:23 +0900
Source: firefox
Architecture: source
Version: 91.0-2
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Maintainers of Mozilla-related packages 

Changed-By: Mike Hommey 
Changes:
 firefox (91.0-2) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * Upload to experimental for cbindgen 0.19 and rustc >= 1.51.
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Accepted firefox 91.0-1 (source) into unstable, unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 07:18:22 +0900
Source: firefox
Architecture: source
Version: 91.0-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Maintainers of Mozilla-related packages 

Changed-By: Mike Hommey 
Changes:
 firefox (91.0-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream release.
   * Fixes for mfsa2021-33, also known as:
 CVE-2021-29986, CVE-2021-29981, CVE-2021-29988, CVE-2021-29984,
 CVE-2021-29980, CVE-2021-29987, CVE-2021-29985, CVE-2021-29982,
 CVE-2021-29989, CVE-2021-29990.
 .
   * debian/control*: Bump nspr, nss and rustc build dependencies.
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Accepted hurd 1:0.9.git20210811-1 (source all) into unstable

2021-08-11 Thread Debian FTP Masters
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 02:29:43 +
Source: hurd
Binary: hurd hurd-dbgsym hurd-dev hurd-dev-dbgsym hurd-doc hurd-libs0.3 
hurd-libs0.3-dbgsym hurd-libs0.3-udeb hurd-prof hurd-udeb
Architecture: source all
Version: 1:0.9.git20210811-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: GNU Hurd Maintainers 
Changed-By: Samuel Thibault 
Description:
 hurd   - GNU Hurd
 hurd-dev   - GNU Hurd (development files)
 hurd-doc   - GNU Hurd manual
 hurd-libs0.3 - GNU Hurd (libraries)
 hurd-libs0.3-udeb - GNU Hurd (libraries) - udeb (udeb)
 hurd-prof  - GNU Hurd
 hurd-udeb  - GNU Hurd - udeb (udeb)
Changes:
 hurd (1:0.9.git20210811-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream snapshot.
 - Fixes disappearance of /dev/urandom.
 - debian/patches/fix-truncate: upstreamed.
 - debian/patches/git-invalid-right: upstreamed.
 - debian/patches/git-libmachdev-non-bootstrap-fix.patch: upstreamed.
 - debian/patches/git-pci-arbiter-non-bootstrap-fix.patch: upstreamed.
 - debian/patches/git-pci-arbiter-option.patch: upstreamed.
 - debian/patches/git-trivfs_server.patch: upstreamed.
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Re: Steam Deck: good news for Linux gaming, bad news for Debian :(

2021-08-11 Thread Steffen Möller



On 11.08.21 08:46, Marc Haber wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 01:09:29 -0400, Calum McConnell
 wrote:

On Wed, 2021-08-11 at 00:51 +, Paul Wise wrote:

On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 5:38 PM Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:


"So, Arch Linux, one of the main reasons, there's a couple, but the
main
reason is the rolling updates of Arch allows us to have more rapid
development for SteamOS 3.0," says Yang. "We were making a bunch of
updates and changes to specifically make sure that things work well
for
Steam deck, and Arch just ended up being a better choice for them."

Sounds like Debian testing would have worked for them too.

Except testing lacks direct security support, and spends about a quarter
of the time in a feature freeze.  It isn't a true rolling release: the
wheels are squares instead of circles.

I think that the experience that Debian has made with Stream is our
classic problem: We try to cater for all, and annoy the people who
want quicker releases. After we have driven away the users who want
quicker releases in the early 2000s (they have moved to Ubuntu or to
the rolling release distributions), we have taken a quicker pace,
driving away the users that want more stability (they have probably
moved to the Red Hat / CentOS world despite them having actually less
stability by defining stability and support time differently than we
do), and still we're too slow for downstream users like Steam.

This is either going to continue, or we finally commit to having more
than one release train, which of course comes with its own set of
issues, the biggest of them being volunteers and personpower.

There is no glory in supporting long support cycles.


For steam, our competitor may be arch. For science projects, it is conda
(ok, hello, yes, you brew and guix people, you are also competitors) -
which rolling and (bonus feature) cross-platform - with CI and often it
is upstream preparing and using these packages themselves.

I have no exact idea what to change, though. A rolling Debian would be
cool, yes, but also a bit late when compared with environments that
Conda offers or the ease that comes with multiple installations of conda
to e.g. avoid name conflicts. If we had a chroot for which you do not
need to be root, then together with snapshot.d.o we would be darn close
to what Conda is offering. I have no idea how to get there, though. With
singularity maybe?

Best,
Steffen



Re: Arch triplet for uefi applications

2021-08-11 Thread Simon McVittie
On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 at 15:19:10 -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> Bastien Roucariès wrote:
> > I suppose that [EFI] will be  x86_64-efi-none (or maybe x86_64-windows-efi  
> > )  and 
> > i686-uefi-none ?

It's certainly not x86_64-windows-efi. The EFI environment isn't Windows
(even though it borrows some conventions like FAT, backslashes in paths
and the PE executable format from Windows).

> UEFI is effectively an "operating system", insofar as it provides a
> runtime environment with some baseline properties and a set of system
> calls. uefi definitely isn't a "vendor", and the OS shouldn't be "none"
> since there is an OS of sorts.
> 
> For that reason, Rust uses the target names "aarch64-unknown-uefi",
> "i686-unknown-uefi", and "x86_64-unknown-uefi". Those seem like the
> right names for these targets in other toolchains, as well.

These names used in Rust seem correct to me. The UEFI environment behaves
like a miniature operating system, which runs instead of GNU/Linux during
the first stage of boot, so replacing the linux-gnu part of the tuple with
uefi makes sense.

Note that there are two forms for writing a GNU tuple: with or without
the vendor. The full tuple consists of CPU-VENDOR-OS, where OS sometimes
consists of KERNEL-USERSPACE, or KERNEL-ABI, or KERNEL-USERSPACEABI where
both disambiguators are needed.

Developers who are used to (GNU/)Linux are likely to think the
KERNEL-USERSPACE form is most common, but actually that one is the
exception, and the more usual form has traditionally just had a single
token for OSs where the kernel and user-space are tightly coupled,
such as solaris2, netbsd or freebsd:

 |CPU|vendor |kernel |userspace|ABI
 |   |   |   | (libc)  |
-|---|---|---|-|
i386-pc-solaris2 |i386   |PC |Solaris 2|
x86_64-pc-freebsd|x86_64 |PC |FreeBSD  |
arm-unknown-netbsd-eabi  |arm|unknown|NetBSD   |EABI
x86_64-unknown-uefi  |x86_64 |unknown| UEFI|
x86_64-pc-linux-gnu  |x86_64 |PC |Linux  |GNU  |
x86_64-pc-linux-musl |x86_64 |PC |Linux  |musl libc|
x86_64-pc-linux-gnux32   |x86_64 |PC |Linux  |GNU  |x32
aarch64-unknown-linux-gnu|aarch64|unknown|Linux  |GNU  |
arm-unknown-linux-gnu|arm|unknown|Linux  |GNU  |OABI
arm-unknown-linux-gnueabi|arm|unknown|Linux  |GNU  |EABI
x86_64-pc-kfreebsd-gnu   |x86_64 |PC |FreeBSD|GNU  |

In Debian multiarch tuples and GNU-style cross-compilation tool
prefixes, the tuple is written in a shorter form without the vendor as
CPU-OS (where, again, the OS might be KERNEL-USERSPACE or KERNEL-ABI or
KERNEL-USERSPACEABI), because the vendor is not usually significant when
determining whether two binaries share an ABI and can interoperate:

i386-solaris2
x86_64-freebsd
arm-netbsd-eabi
x86_64-uefi
x86_64-linux-gnu
x86_64-linux-musl
x86_64-linux-gnux32
aarch64-linux-gnu
arm-linux-gnu
arm-linux-gnueabi
x86_64-kfreebsd-gnu

(For instance we have x86_64-linux-gnu-gcc and /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu.)

I prefer to call these strings tuples rather than triplets, because
calling them triplets can be misleading. The "target triplet" in Autoconf
specifically refers to the CPU-VENDOR-OS arrangment - remember that GNU
started by building Free Software tools to run on top of other (often
proprietary) operating systems, where the ABI was externally imposed by
the OS vendor, so initially it wouldn't have made sense to talk about the
kernel and user-space separately. The Linux, kFreeBSD and Hurd kernels
and the possibility of running a complete GNU operating system only came
later. So "triplet" refers to the three parts of a full tuple with the
vendor, broken up like this:

<--1--><--2-->  <--3-->
i386-  pc-  solaris2
x86_64-pc-  linux-gnu

"Triplet" does not refer to the three parts of an abbreviated
GNU/Linux-style tuple written without the vendor, even though this decade
that's the one we see most often:

# NOT THIS
x86_64-linux-   gnu

because not all operating systems' short-form tuples break down into
three parts like that (as you can see from the Solaris, FreeBSD, NetBSD
examples above).

Traditional cross-compilation (cross-libraries in subdirectories of /usr,
such as /usr/i386-solaris2 or /usr/arm-unknown-netbsd-eabi) might write the
tuple with or without the vendor. In Debian, we use the tuple without the
vendor included for multilib (e.g. /usr/i686-linux-gnu in libc6-i386-cross),
but we use the tuple *with* the vendor included for mingw-w64
(/usr/i686-w64-mingw32, /usr/x86_64-w64-mingw32).

smcv



Re: Steam Deck: good news for Linux gaming, bad news for Debian :(

2021-08-11 Thread Marc Haber
On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 01:09:29 -0400, Calum McConnell
 wrote:
>On Wed, 2021-08-11 at 00:51 +, Paul Wise wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 5:38 PM Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
>> 
>> > "So, Arch Linux, one of the main reasons, there's a couple, but the
>> > main
>> > reason is the rolling updates of Arch allows us to have more rapid
>> > development for SteamOS 3.0," says Yang. "We were making a bunch of
>> > updates and changes to specifically make sure that things work well
>> > for
>> > Steam deck, and Arch just ended up being a better choice for them."
>> 
>> Sounds like Debian testing would have worked for them too.
>
>Except testing lacks direct security support, and spends about a quarter
>of the time in a feature freeze.  It isn't a true rolling release: the
>wheels are squares instead of circles.

I think that the experience that Debian has made with Stream is our
classic problem: We try to cater for all, and annoy the people who
want quicker releases. After we have driven away the users who want
quicker releases in the early 2000s (they have moved to Ubuntu or to
the rolling release distributions), we have taken a quicker pace,
driving away the users that want more stability (they have probably
moved to the Red Hat / CentOS world despite them having actually less
stability by defining stability and support time differently than we
do), and still we're too slow for downstream users like Steam.

This is either going to continue, or we finally commit to having more
than one release train, which of course comes with its own set of
issues, the biggest of them being volunteers and personpower.

There is no glory in supporting long support cycles.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
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Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | 
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