Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, 2023-06-06 at 12:45 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:

> since we don't really have an "i386 porting team"

The release team have registered Adrian Bunk as an i386 porter:

https://release.debian.org/testing/arch_spec.yaml

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, 2023-06-06 at 09:33 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:

> I've been reading the discussion around i386 a bit and found the
> direction it has taken a little unproductive.

I note that there are a number of packages available on i386 but not
available on amd64, is anyone planning on an MBF about this issue?

$ grep -h arch=.*i386 /var/lib/apt/lists/*Sources | grpe -v amd64 | grep -v -- 
-modules- | grep -v  -- -image- | grep -v -- -headers- | grep -v -- -dbg  | 
grep -v lib64 | grep -v x86-64-linux-gnu
 fp-units-i386 deb devel optional arch=i386
 fp-units-i386-3.2.2 deb devel optional arch=i386
 libc0.3 deb libs optional arch=hurd-i386 profile=!stage1
 libc0.3-dev deb libdevel optional arch=hurd-i386
 libc0.3-udeb udeb debian-installer optional arch=hurd-i386 
profile=!noudeb,!stage1
 libc0.3 deb libs optional arch=hurd-i386 profile=!stage1
 libc0.3-dev deb libdevel optional arch=hurd-i386
 libc0.3-udeb udeb debian-installer optional arch=hurd-i386 
profile=!noudeb,!stage1
 libc0.3 deb libs optional arch=hurd-i386 profile=!stage1
 libc0.3-dev deb libdevel optional arch=hurd-i386
 libc0.3-udeb udeb debian-installer optional arch=hurd-i386 
profile=!noudeb,!stage1
 sse2-support deb misc optional arch=any-i386
 netdata-core-no-sse deb net optional arch=i386
 steam deb contrib/oldlibs optional arch=i386
 steam-libs-i386 deb metapackages optional arch=i386
 etqw deb contrib/games optional arch=i386
 etqw-server deb contrib/games optional arch=i386
 quake4 deb contrib/games optional arch=i386
 quake4-server deb contrib/games optional arch=i386
 speech-dispatcher-ibmtts deb contrib/sound optional arch=i386
 adlibtracker2 deb sound optional arch=i386
 atitvout deb misc optional arch=i386,ia64
 sb16ctrl-bochs deb otherosfs optional arch=any-i386
 cmucl deb lisp optional arch=i386
 cmucl-clm deb lisp optional arch=i386
 fenix deb devel optional 
arch=arm,armel,armhf,hppa,hurd-i386,i386,kfreebsd-i386,m68k,mips,mipsel,mipsn32,mipsn32el,powerpc,s390,sh4,sparc
 fenix-plugin-mpeg deb devel optional 
arch=arm,armel,armhf,hppa,i386,kfreebsd-i386,hurd-i386,m68k,mips,mipsel,sh4,powerpc,s390,sparc
 fenix-plugins deb devel optional 
arch=arm,armel,armhf,hppa,i386,kfreebsd-i386,hurd-i386,m68k,mips,mipsel,sh4,powerpc,s390,sparc
 fenix-plugins-system deb devel optional 
arch=arm,armel,armhf,hppa,i386,kfreebsd-i386,hurd-i386,m68k,mips,mipsel,sh4,powerpc,s390,sparc
 fnfx-client deb utils optional arch=i386
 fnfxd deb utils optional arch=i386
 fp-units-i386 deb devel optional arch=i386
 fp-units-i386-3.2.2 deb devel optional arch=i386
 fwupd-i386-signed-template deb admin optional arch=i386
 fwupd-i386-signed deb admin optional arch=i386
 gatos deb misc extra arch=i386
 libgatos-dev deb libdevel extra arch=i386
 libgatos0 deb libs extra arch=i386
 libc0.3 deb libs optional arch=hurd-i386 profile=!stage1
 libc0.3-dev deb libdevel optional arch=hurd-i386
 libc0.3-udeb udeb debian-installer optional arch=hurd-i386 
profile=!noudeb,!stage1
 libc0.3 deb libs optional arch=hurd-i386 profile=!stage1
 libc0.3-dev deb libdevel optional arch=hurd-i386
 libc0.3-udeb udeb debian-installer optional arch=hurd-i386 
profile=!noudeb,!stage1
 grub-efi-ia32-signed deb admin optional arch=i386
 grub-efi-ia32-signed-template deb admin optional arch=i386
 grub-efi-ia32-signed-template deb admin optional arch=i386
 sse2-support deb misc optional arch=any-i386
 lmms-vst-server deb sound optional arch=i386
 longrun deb utils optional arch=i386
 lphdisk deb admin optional arch=i386
 mig-i686-gnu deb devel optional arch=any-i386
 netdata-core-no-sse deb net optional arch=i386
 pcsx2 deb games optional arch=i386
 pixbros deb games optional 
arch=armel,armhf,hppa,hurd-i386,i386,kfreebsd-i386,m68k,mips,mipsel,powerpc,sh4
 pixfrogger deb games optional 
arch=armel,armhf,hppa,hurd-i386,i386,kfreebsd-i386,m68k,mips,mipsel,powerpc,sh4
 shim-helpers-i386-signed-template deb admin optional arch=i386
 shim-helpers-i386-signed deb admin optional arch=i386
 sqlite3-tools deb database optional arch=linux-any,hurd-i386
 steam deb contrib/oldlibs optional arch=i386
 steam-libs-i386 deb metapackages optional arch=i386
 strace64 deb utils optional arch=i386,powerpc,s390,sparc
 syslog-ng-mod-snmp deb admin optional arch=linux-any,hurd-i386
 wine32 deb otherosfs optional arch=i386,armel,armhf
 wine32-preloader deb otherosfs optional arch=i386,armel,armhf
 wine32-tools deb libdevel optional arch=i386,armel,armhf
 xserver-xorg-video-geode deb x11 optional arch=any-i386
 zsnes deb otherosfs optional arch=any-i386
 intel-mkl-linktool deb non-free/utils optional arch=i386
 libmkl-gf deb non-free/libs optional arch=i386
 libmkl-intel deb non-free/libs optional arch=i386
 libmkl-p4 deb non-free/libs optional arch=i386
 libmkl-p4m deb non-free/libs optional arch=i386
 libmkl-p4m3 deb non-free/libs optional arch=i386
 libmkl-vml-ia deb non-free/libs optional arch=i386
 libmkl-vml-p4 deb non-free/libs optional arch=i386
 libmkl-vml-p4m deb non-free/libs optional arch=i386
 

Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, 2023-06-06 at 11:45 +0100, Simon McVittie wrote:

> When considering the future of i386, a factor that we need to bear in
> mind is that there are two major use-cases for i386, with requirements
> that sometimes conflict:

There was another option mentioned earlier in the thread that could
help resolve some aspects of these conflicts; make 32-bit arches
(or just i386) support both time_t ABIs, like glibc and Linux do.

The 64-bit time_t ABI would be the default but the 32-bit time_t ABI
would be present for running old binaries that still kind of work with
the 32-bit ABIs after 2038, or under faketime when they do not.

This would be more work for Debian and a lot more work for upstreams
but would be a better outcome for the diversity of uses for 32-bit.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Accepted mmh 0.4-5 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 18:16:42 -0300
Source: mmh
Architecture: source
Version: 0.4-5
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian QA Group 
Changed-By: Aquila Macedo Costa 
Changes:
 mmh (0.4-5) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * QA upload.
 .
   [ Debian Janitor ]
   * Drop unnecessary dependency on dh-autoreconf.
   * Remove obsolete field Name from debian/upstream/metadata (already present 
in
 machine-readable debian/copyright).
   * Update standards version to 4.5.0, no changes needed.
 .
   [ Aquila Macedo Costa ]
   * debian/control: 'debhelper-compat' in Build-Depends is bumped to level 13.
   * debian/control: bumped Standards-Version to 4.6.2.
   * debian/control: changed from 'libncurses5-dev' to 'libncurses-dev'
 in Build-Depends field.
   * Updating debian/watch file:
 - debian/watch: changing protocol from 'http' to 'https'.
 - debian/watch: updated watch file version from 3 to 4.
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Accepted mvtnorm 1.2-1-1 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Changed-By: Dirk Eddelbuettel 
Changes:
 mvtnorm (1.2-1-1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream release (into 'experimental' while Debian is frozen)
 .
   * debian/control: Set Build-Depends: to current R version
   * debian/control: Set Standards-Version: to current version
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Accepted firefox 114.0-1 (source) into unstable

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 05:52:21 +0900
Source: firefox
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Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Maintainers of Mozilla-related packages 

Changed-By: Mike Hommey 
Changes:
 firefox (114.0-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream release.
   * Fixes for mfsa2023-20, also known as:
 CVE-2023-34414, CVE-2023-34415, CVE-2023-34416, CVE-2023-34417.
 .
   * debian/browser.install.in: Install gfxtest and vaapitest.
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Confirm

[Patrick]

 CONFIRM s2023060623370725133

Accepted firefox-esr 102.12.0esr-1 (source) into unstable

[Debian FTP Masters]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2023 05:34:19 +0900
Source: firefox-esr
Architecture: source
Version: 102.12.0esr-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Maintainers of Mozilla-related packages 

Changed-By: Mike Hommey 
Changes:
 firefox-esr (102.12.0esr-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream release.
   * Fixes for mfsa2023-19, also known as:
 CVE-2023-34414, CVE-2023-34416.
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Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Simon McVittie]

On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 at 12:27:56 -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> there is the possible
> case of people running I-don't-know-which proprietay productivity tool
> provided as a binary that cannot be convinced of a 64-bit time_t that
> will receive errors when the timeocalypse approaches

Sure, and that's unfortunate; but if those same people run the same binary
on i386 + 64-bit time_t, and it gets memory corruption and crashes
because some library that was recompiled for this transition is now trying
to put a 64-bit time_t into a 32-bit location, that's not actually going
to be any more suitable for their needs.

smcv

Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Steve Langasek]

Hi Helmut,

On Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 09:33:22AM +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 09:04:10PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > * … but NOT on i386.  Because i386 as an architecture is primarily of
> >   interest for running legacy binaries which cannot be rebuilt against a new
> >   ABI, changing the ABI on i386 would be counterproductive, as mentioned in
> >   https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/64bit-time.

> I've been reading the discussion around i386 a bit and found the
> direction it has taken a little unproductive. I hope we can agree that
> there is no consensus on keeping or changing the time ABI for i386 while
> there is quite some consensus for your plan on changing the time ABI for
> all other 32bit architectures in roughly the way you brought forward.

I have a different read on the consensus here.  While there has been a lot
of discussion about whether to continue supporting i386 as a host arch,
almost everyone participating in the thread who said they want this is not a
voting member of Debian.  The lone exception that I can recall from the
thread was Guillem, who, as dpkg maintainer, is certainly a stakeholder in
this decision (and since we don't really have an "i386 porting team",
probably the most important individual stakeholder).

Since my read is that Guillem was in the "rough" of "rough consensus", I
asked him directly how we should move forward on a decision.  A GR is one
option, and I think it's definitely a better option than going through the
TC: while there is a decision to be made here about a "technical" detail of
what dpkg-buildflags will do, you're right to point out that it's really a
decision about what we want to support as a project.

> While the i386 discussion seemed a little unproductive at times, I think
> there is one major argument that I feel is missing here. If keeping the
> 32bit time ABI for i386, that effectively becomes a divergence from
> every other architecture. i386 will be the one and only architecture to
> be time32. As it happens, I have some experience with such divergence
> from how bootstrapping interacted with other transitions such as PIE.
> Maintaining this kind of divergence has a non-trivial cost. Over time it
> becomes more and more difficult and less and less people are interested
> in doing it. As such, I see the addition of this kind of divergence as a
> way of killing i386.

Hmm, I don't share this particular concern.  PIE is a change to compiler
behavior.  32-bit time_t is a change to defines that modify types (and
prototypes) used in header files.  Maintaining a compiler is hard,
maintaining a library ABI is "easy" - glibc has avoided breaking ABI for 25
years so far.

> Judging from the conversation, killing i386 quite obviously is desired
> by some participants, but evidently not by all. How quickly we want to
> kill it is not obvious to me. However, I think it is fair to say that
> keeping time32 on i386 will kill it rather sooner than later. With
> time32, we cannot reasonably extend i386 beyond forky as we'd be running
> too close to the final deadline.

As a reliable host OS, sure.  As a compatibility layer, as Simon has pointed
out, having a wrong idea of the time is not a big deal for a lot of
applications.

> Some of you may have been aware of that Debian Reunion in Hamburg
> recently. There was a BoF on how Debian should decide about non-trivial
> matters and one result of that BoF was "maybe we should GR more often".
> I think the decision of what to do with time32 is not a really important
> one despite some people being very opinionated about it. How about
> settling it using a GR anyway? We perceive GRs as painful and there is a
> saying that if something is difficult, let's do it more often. How about
> trying to do GRs more often with this decision? I think it is pretty
> clear that neither answer is wrong. It's a choice that we have make and
> then to stick to. And we can learn something about whether GRs really
> are painful. I think the worst of outcomes we could get here is going
> into much further detail in a GR and adding lots of competing proposals
> there. If that were to happen, I'd consider the experiment as failed.
> Leaving the details to those who put up with the work (and that quite
> obviously is Steve et al here) is important in my book. So unless we can
> do it as simple as "i386 should keep being time32" vs "i386 should
> become time64 by default", we probably shouldn't GR it.

I am not keen to try to drive a GR on this, but if you raised one I'm likely
to second it.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer   https://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Alexis Murzeau]

Hi,

On 06/06/2023 12:45, Simon McVittie wrote:

2. i386 as a multiarch foreign architecture to run legacy binaries on
modern x86_64 systems
2a. legacy native Linux i386 binaries
2b. legacy Windows i386 binaries via Wine (which requires a somewhat
complete i386 Linux library stack)



Windows already uses 64 bits time_t on i386 since Visual Studio 2005,
unless _USE_32BIT_TIME_T is defined ([msvcrt-time]), and even if it is
defined, Wine implementation of 32 bits time() will not use Linux' time_t.

So I'm not sure Windows i386 binaries will be affected by a Linux-side change of
time_t, unless you think about something else.


For the same reason, this line in the wiki [wiki] may not be true:
32-bit wine (i386 only). This does not make much sense with 64-bit time. It's whole purpose is to run old i386-ABI binaries. The ABI for this arch (and thus wine-32) should not change. 




Also, as said in this interesting Wine-devel thread about i386 
[wine-devel-32bits]:

Many 64-bit applications still use either a 32-bit installer or some
32-bit components. In comparison 64-bit Windows will support 32-bit
(probably) forever.


And even if newer Wine versions supports WoW (32 bits Windows on 64 bits
within the same Wine prefix), 64 bit Wine still require 32 bits Linux
libraries to run 32 bits Windows programs.

This means that Wine will probably require 32 bits Linux libraries for
probably a long time and not only for legacy Windows binaries.



[msvcrt-time]
 - https://sources.debian.org/src/wine/8.0~repack-4/include/msvcrt/time.h/#L92
 - https://sources.debian.org/src/wine/8.0~repack-4/dlls/msvcrt/time.c/#L781

[wiki] https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/64bit-time
[wine-devel-32bits] 
https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147869.html

--
Alexis Murzeau
PGP: B7E6 0EBB 9293 7B06 BDBC  2787 E7BD 1904 F480 937F|



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Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Gunnar Wolf]

Simon McVittie dijo [Tue, Jun 06, 2023 at 11:45:26AM +0100]:
> On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 at 09:33:22 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > Judging from the conversation, killing i386 quite obviously is desired
> > by some participants, but evidently not by all. How quickly we want to
> > kill it is not obvious to me.
> 
> When considering the future of i386, a factor that we need to bear in
> mind is that there are two major use-cases for i386, with requirements
> that sometimes conflict:
> 
> 1. i386 as a fully-featured architecture that you can run independently
>on 32-bit x86 systems from roughly the 2000-2010 era
> 
> 2. i386 as a multiarch foreign architecture to run legacy binaries on
>modern x86_64 systems
>2a. legacy native Linux i386 binaries
>2b. legacy Windows i386 binaries via Wine (which requires a somewhat
>complete i386 Linux library stack)
> (...)

I completely agree with your analysis here, and I agree we should
strive to keep 2a and 2b covered, as they are (and they will be, every
time by a bigger margin) by far more common and productive than 1.  I
agree with your assessment that date woes will be minor for the i386
user than incompatibility woes going forward; there is the possible
case of people running I-don't-know-which proprietay productivity tool
provided as a binary that cannot be convinced of a 64-bit time_t that
will receive errors when the timeocalypse approaches, but I guess the
gaming use cases will be much more frequent than that; even though
your vision might be somewhat skewed by the fact that you work in
Steam, it makes complete sense.

Of course, given our i386 users would be running (>10 years for now) a
Debian architecture used mostly for compatibility with old non-free
binaries, we'd have to think whether it makes sense to provide a full
Debian experience (i.e. you don't want i386 users to have a PostgreSQL
with a known-borked time implementation storing important information
in it -- and of course, this is only the first of too many examples
that comes to my mind, but won the race to get to my fingers )

But anyway, back to what matters here: I support Helmut's idea. I have
long thought we fear the GR process too much, and we should excercise
it more. Not every GR has to be a flamefest. Having a clear statement
of what is being voted on, and the possible consequences on each of
the options, can lead to a civil, useful way to measure the opinion of
project members interested in the subject.

Right now, I imagine a ballot similar to:

The future of i386 in Debian from Trixie onwards

   A. Drop support of i386 completely
   B. Keep support of i386 as a multiarch-foreign arch, with 32-bit time_t
   C. Keep support of i386 as a multiarch-foreign arch, with 64-bit time_t
   D. Commit to supporting i386 as a full-featured arch, with 32-bit time_t
   E. Commit to supporting i386 as a full-featured arch, with 64-bit time_t
   F. Further discussion

I know this woul conflate two decisions in one ballot, but arguably
they are part of the same issue. I do not feel qualified to draft the
full vote, as I have not followed the discussion as closely as I'd
like to and I'm not directly affected anyway, but would be very happy
to second it.

FWIW, I believe the only real danger in having non-controversial GRs
would be that a vote does not reach quorum (48 voters in the last GR),
but I don't believe it is a real danger to worry about; in any case,
failure to reach quorum would mean the project does not _mandate_ a
decision, but it can be anyway implemented by porters / RT.

Accepted domdf-python-tools 3.4.0-1 (all source) into unstable

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Accepted debputy 0.1.1 (source all) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Accepted tango 9.4.2~rc2+dfsg1-1~exp4 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 11:53:10 -0300
Source: tango
Architecture: source
Version: 9.4.2~rc2+dfsg1-1~exp4
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Science Maintainers 

Changed-By: Santiago Ruano Rincón 
Changes:
 tango (9.4.2~rc2+dfsg1-1~exp4) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * Install tango.idl in libtango-dev instead of libtango-doc to fix building
 on all only
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Accepted octave-signal 1.4.4-3 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian Octave Group 
Changed-By: Rafael Laboissière 
Changes:
 octave-signal (1.4.4-3) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * d/p/firpm-bist-ppc64el.patch: New patch
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Accepted dbus 1.15.6-1 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:06:09 +0100
Source: dbus
Architecture: source
Version: 1.15.6-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Utopia Maintenance Team 

Changed-By: Simon McVittie 
Closes: 1033056 1037151
Changes:
 dbus (1.15.6-1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   [ Simon McVittie ]
   * New upstream development release
 - Fixes a denial of service issue if the root or messagebus user is
   monitoring messages on the system bus with the Monitoring interface
   (dbus-monitor, busctl monitor, gdbus monitor or similar)
   (Closes: #1037151)
   * d/rules: Tell dh_shlibdeps where to find dbus-tests' private libraries
 dbus-tests contains an instrumented/debug build of libdbus in a private
 directory, which has more ABI than the production build, and a second
 set of tests which depend on that debug build.
   * d/rules: Extend arbitrary timeout for tests.
 Some mipsel buildds are very slow and have seen the hash test time out
 after 30 seconds (it normally takes about 10 on slower machines).
 .
   [ Helmut Grohne ]
   * Mark dbus-daemon and dbus-bin Multi-Arch: foreign (Closes: #1033056)
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Accepted mozjs102 102.12.0-1 (source) into unstable

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 11:20:22 -0400
Source: mozjs102
Built-For-Profiles: noudeb
Architecture: source
Version: 102.12.0-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: high
Maintainer: Debian GNOME Maintainers 

Changed-By: Jeremy Bícha 
Closes: 1037158
Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed: 2023047
Changes:
 mozjs102 (102.12.0-1) unstable; urgency=high
 .
   * New upstream release (LP: #2023047) (Closes: #1037158)
 - CVE-2023-34416: Memory safety bugs
   * Update debian/upstream/signing-key.asc per upstream rotation
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Bug#1037157: ITP: damo -- Data Access Monitoring Operator

[Michel Alexandre Salim]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Michel Alexandre Salim 
X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, mic...@michel-slm.name

* Package name: damo
  Version : 1.8.3
  Upstream Contact: SeongJae Park 
* URL : https://damonitor.github.io/
* License : GPL
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Data Access Monitoring Operator

damo is a user space tool for DAMON. Using this, you can monitor the data access
patterns of your system or workloads and make data access-aware memory
management optimizations.

 - what it does: https://sjp38.github.io/post/damon/ -- basically you
   can optimize how the kernel manages memory based on how often pages
   are accessed
 - recent LWN article: https://lwn.net/Articles/931769/
 - Will be maintained as part of the Debian Python Team. I am a Debian
   Maintainer so this will need an initial sponsor.

Accepted cvise 2.8.0-1 (source) into unstable

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 17:23:25 +0200
Source: cvise
Architecture: source
Version: 2.8.0-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian GCC Maintainers 
Changed-By: Matthias Klose 
Changes:
 cvise (2.8.0-1) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream version.
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Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Marco d'Itri]

On Jun 06, Simon McVittie  wrote:

> When considering the future of i386, a factor that we need to bear in
> mind is that there are two major use-cases for i386, with requirements
> that sometimes conflict:
Agreed. I will be more blunt: an i386 port which cannot run old i386 
binaries would be almost useless.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Bug#1037154: ITP: php-fig-log-test -- Test utilities for the psr/log package that backs the PSR-3 specification

[Athos Ribeiro]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Athos Ribeiro 
X-Debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org

* Package name: php-fig-log-test
  Version : 1.1.0
  Upstream Contact: Anton Ukhanev 
* URL : https://github.com/php-fig/log-test
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: PHP
  Description : Test utilities for the psr/log package that backs the PSR-3 
specification

Provides a base test class for ensuring compliance with the LoggerInterface
(Psr\Log\Test\LoggerInterfaceTest) and a mock class for testing purposes
(Psr\Log\Test\TestLogger). This package should be used only for tests.

The upstream project for the php-psr-log package extracted the test and
mock classes that were once shipped within php-psr-log to a new project
(log-test) starting from php-psr-log  >= 2.0. Some packages may require
these classes for testing purposes and may FTBFS once php-psr-log 3.x
(now in experimental) is uploaded to unstable.

I have prepared an initial package at
https://salsa.debian.org/athos/php-fig-log-test

This should eventually be moved to salsa's php-team/pear
to be maintained by the php team.

This package Breaks/Replaces php-psr-log < 2 and requires
php-psr-log > 2. Therefore, it should be only uploaded to experimental for
now. Whenever php-psr-log 3 is uploaded to unstable, then this should also
be uploaded there.

I will need a sponsor for this one.

-- 
Athos Ribeiro

Accepted lpctools 1.07-2 (source) into unstable

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Maintainer: Debian QA Group 
Changed-By: Sophie Brun 
Changes:
 lpctools (1.07-2) unstable; urgency=medium
 .
   * Orphan the package
 .
   [ Ondřej Nový ]
   * d/copyright: Use https protocol in Format field
   * d/changelog: Remove trailing whitespaces
   * d/rules: Remove trailing whitespaces
 .
   [ Debian Janitor ]
   * Bump debhelper from old 11 to 13.
   * Set debhelper-compat version in Build-Depends.
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Accepted power-profiles-daemon 0.13-1 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Version: 0.13-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: medium
Maintainer: Debian freedesktop.org maintainers 

Changed-By: Sebastien Bacher 
Closes: 1021746
Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed: 2022945
Changes:
 power-profiles-daemon (0.13-1) experimental; urgency=medium
 .
   * New upstream version (lp: #2022945)
 - adds support for the AMD P-State driver that's been added to the
   6.3 Linux kernel
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   * debian/power-profiles-daemon.maintscript:
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Festa de lançamento do Bookworm - sábado 10/06

[Paulo Henrique Santana]

Olá,

Venha celebrar com a gente a chegada da nova versão do Debian 12 Bookworm neste 
sábado (10/06) a partir das 14h30min.

Iremos conversar sobre as novidades do Bookworm e transmitir pelo canal Debian 
Brasil no YouTube.

Veja a programação completa e mais detalhes em:

https://wiki.debian.org/Brasil/Eventos/FestaLancamentoBookworm

Obs: se você quiser falar alguma coisa sobre o Debian 12 me manda uma mensagem 
pra incluirmos na programação.

Abraços,-Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)Belo Horizonte - BrasilDebian 
DeveloperAssociado do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias LivresSite: 
http://phls.com.brGPG ID: 0443C450

Accepted netcdf4-python 1.6.4-1~exp1 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Accepted mkgmap 0.0.0+svn4909-1~exp1 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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 .
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Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Luca Boccassi]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 11:46, Simon McVittie  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 at 09:33:22 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > Judging from the conversation, killing i386 quite obviously is desired
> > by some participants, but evidently not by all. How quickly we want to
> > kill it is not obvious to me.
>
> When considering the future of i386, a factor that we need to bear in
> mind is that there are two major use-cases for i386, with requirements
> that sometimes conflict:
>
> 1. i386 as a fully-featured architecture that you can run independently
>on 32-bit x86 systems from roughly the 2000-2010 era
>
> 2. i386 as a multiarch foreign architecture to run legacy binaries on
>modern x86_64 systems
>2a. legacy native Linux i386 binaries
>2b. legacy Windows i386 binaries via Wine (which requires a somewhat
>complete i386 Linux library stack)
>
> For example, Ubuntu has ceased to support i386 for the first use-case,
> and only supports the second use-case. I personally think that Ubuntu
> has made a good pragmatic decision here, which Debian should seriously
> consider adopting.

+1

Given native 32-bit x86 hardware is no longer produced (and has not
been produced for a good while), so it has a de-facto limited life, as
consumer-grade electronics are what they are. Let's say hypothetically
that Trixie is the last full-i386 release, going out in 2025 plus 10
years of LTS+ELTS support that gives a supported OS till 2035, just
shy of the Y2038 deadline and with ~25 years of full support for the
most recent piece of hardware that was produced. And it's not like
those OSes versions are going to evaporate into thin air at that point
- they can still be used. Probably should not be connected to the open
internet and used to browse the web, but realistically already today I
doubt browsing the modern web is a good experience on 32bit hardware
from 2010, I can't imagine it would much better be in 2035...

On the other hand, i386 binaries that can run on x86_64 are
realistically going to be around for much, much longer as you pointed
out, so to me prioritizing this use case seems more prudent and
future-proof between the two alternatives.

Kind regards,
Luca Boccassi

Accepted python-geopandas 0.13.2-1~exp1 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Simon McVittie]

On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 at 09:33:22 +0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> Judging from the conversation, killing i386 quite obviously is desired
> by some participants, but evidently not by all. How quickly we want to
> kill it is not obvious to me.

When considering the future of i386, a factor that we need to bear in
mind is that there are two major use-cases for i386, with requirements
that sometimes conflict:

1. i386 as a fully-featured architecture that you can run independently
   on 32-bit x86 systems from roughly the 2000-2010 era

2. i386 as a multiarch foreign architecture to run legacy binaries on
   modern x86_64 systems
   2a. legacy native Linux i386 binaries
   2b. legacy Windows i386 binaries via Wine (which requires a somewhat
   complete i386 Linux library stack)

For example, Ubuntu has ceased to support i386 for the first use-case,
and only supports the second use-case. I personally think that Ubuntu
has made a good pragmatic decision here, which Debian should seriously
consider adopting.

Most non-Debian-derived distributions like Fedora and Arch seem to be in
approximately the same position as Ubuntu for their i386 support, although
they tend to use multilib (lib64+lib or lib+lib32) instead of multiarch.

Which of these use-cases is more interesting to us has an impact on how
we (should) want to do the time32 transition. For users who do not have
any legacy i386 binaries and only use open source software that can be
recompiled, the need to recompile everything is a one-time cost for the
distribution or for users of locally-compiled software, but does not make
anything impossible.

However, if the ABI of commonly-used libraries like libX11 undergoes an
incompatible change for the time32 transition, in a way that breaks the
ability to run legacy i386 binaries, then the second use-case is going
to become essentially impossible for native Linux binaries.

Conversely, the ability to tell the time correctly is probably less
important for games and similar legacy i386 binaries than it would be for
a full, bootable OS, because timestamps that can be subtracted to get a
relative time interval are probably sufficient for many legacy uses of
time_t. Even in cases where a time_t is used for an absolute date/time,
displaying the wrong date/time after 2038 seems like a less bad failure
mode than a segmentation fault caused by disagreeing on the size of a
struct in memory.

The i386-legacy-binaries use-case is particularly visible to game players,
because older proprietary native Linux games, including a number of
older games available on Steam, are a high-visibility source of legacy
i386 binaries that we cannot recompile. At the moment, the Steam client
is also an example of a legacy i386 binary: this was originally for
portability to 32-bit hardware, which it no longer supports, but the
bootstrap executable that launches the rest of Steam has continued to be
32-bit, partly for historical reasons and partly as a canary to detect and
diagnose non-32-bit-capable OSs before the user tries to run any actual
games. Steam does have the ability to run legacy games in a container
(which I've spent a lot of time working on over the last few years),
but that still requires the host system to contribute at least glibc
and Mesa, together with their dependencies.

Whether we care about the 32-bit-system use case or only the
i386-legacy-binaries use case is also a key input into other decisions
that need to be made around x86, like whether we raise the baseline
to include SSE2: if we want to be able to run i386 on older 32-bit
CPUs indefinitely, then that's a reason to keep the current baseline,
but if we are no longer interested in supporting 32-bit x86 hardware,
then we can (and arguably should) raise the baseline to require all the
features that are mandatory for x86_64, notably SSE2 (which would allow
compiling everything with -mfpmath=sse and therefore avoiding weird
i386-specific bugs caused by excess precision in the legacy i387 FPU).

smcv

Accepted josm 0.0.svn18746+dfsg-1~exp2 (source) into experimental

[Debian FTP Masters]

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Accepted sqlmap 1.7.6-1 (source) into unstable

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Re: 64-bit time_t transition for 32-bit archs: a proposal

[Helmut Grohne]

Hi Steve,

On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 09:04:10PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> * … but NOT on i386.  Because i386 as an architecture is primarily of
>   interest for running legacy binaries which cannot be rebuilt against a new
>   ABI, changing the ABI on i386 would be counterproductive, as mentioned in
>   https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/64bit-time.

I've been reading the discussion around i386 a bit and found the
direction it has taken a little unproductive. I hope we can agree that
there is no consensus on keeping or changing the time ABI for i386 while
there is quite some consensus for your plan on changing the time ABI for
all other 32bit architectures in roughly the way you brought forward.

While the i386 discussion seemed a little unproductive at times, I think
there is one major argument that I feel is missing here. If keeping the
32bit time ABI for i386, that effectively becomes a divergence from
every other architecture. i386 will be the one and only architecture to
be time32. As it happens, I have some experience with such divergence
from how bootstrapping interacted with other transitions such as PIE.
Maintaining this kind of divergence has a non-trivial cost. Over time it
becomes more and more difficult and less and less people are interested
in doing it. As such, I see the addition of this kind of divergence as a
way of killing i386.

Judging from the conversation, killing i386 quite obviously is desired
by some participants, but evidently not by all. How quickly we want to
kill it is not obvious to me. However, I think it is fair to say that
keeping time32 on i386 will kill it rather sooner than later. With
time32, we cannot reasonably extend i386 beyond forky as we'd be running
too close to the final deadline.

Some of you may have been aware of that Debian Reunion in Hamburg
recently. There was a BoF on how Debian should decide about non-trivial
matters and one result of that BoF was "maybe we should GR more often".
I think the decision of what to do with time32 is not a really important
one despite some people being very opinionated about it. How about
settling it using a GR anyway? We perceive GRs as painful and there is a
saying that if something is difficult, let's do it more often. How about
trying to do GRs more often with this decision? I think it is pretty
clear that neither answer is wrong. It's a choice that we have make and
then to stick to. And we can learn something about whether GRs really
are painful. I think the worst of outcomes we could get here is going
into much further detail in a GR and adding lots of competing proposals
there. If that were to happen, I'd consider the experiment as failed.
Leaving the details to those who put up with the work (and that quite
obviously is Steve et al here) is important in my book. So unless we can
do it as simple as "i386 should keep being time32" vs "i386 should
become time64 by default", we probably shouldn't GR it.

Helmut

Accepted php-mockery 1.6.1-1 (source) into unstable

[Debian FTP Masters]

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 .
   [ Nathanael Esayeas ]
   * Update CHANGELOG.md
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Accepted unalz 0.65-9 (source) into unstable

[Debian FTP Masters]

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