Glad that you guys will take care of this, as it is way over my head.
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With the new style of "mass tirage" of bugs,
The user submits a bug;
while (sleep 1 year) {
He gets a message asking him to verify if the bug still exists;
He perhaps especially reinstalls the package that he long ago stopped using &&
He verifies it || the bug is closed
}
Now disposing of t
Be sure that somebody looks at new bugs.
As days pass, the test conditions in the report e.g., URLs, deteriorate.
As weeks pass, the user may have removed the package for another.
As months pass, the user may no longer be working on related projects.
As years pass, the user himself might have passe
DN> don't have the time (or often the ability) to go back and
DN> reproduce the hundreds of bugs
Yes. Never mind the old bugs then. Just try to reproduce new bugs as
they come in, before they become old bugs.
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The newest fad in Mass bug closings is:
All bugs against package "nurd5" have been automatically closed without
further review,
as "nurd5" has been removed from Debian.
OK, fair enough, until one checks deeper and finds:
"nurd5" has been removed from Debian because:
By the way, it would be great if the mirrors kept more than just a
week of Diffs. It seems every time I get back from a trip, I end up
uploading the whole Packages.gz file again. Two weeks worth would be better.
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LN> Now, a mistake was made in with nurd{5,6}. It's easy to fix it, just
LN> reopen all the bugs, and mark them as notfound in the version used in
LN> their -close message. It would have been a lot more helpful and less
LN> demotivating to contact the one who closed the bugs instead of mailing
LN>
AM> It is a known temporary problem caused by the ... transition,
All I know is on the first days of such transitions, my usual
# apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true --purge dselect-upgrade
barfs up kilometers of broken dep messages, the next day it is fewer,
but still several broken deps.
All I know is on my stripped down computer with no speakers (except
for the boot beep beeper), I asked myself: why can I dpkg-purge
esound-clients, but then if I do apt-get dist-upgrade (vs.
dselect-upgrade), it gets installed back again?
Well it turns out esound-clients is depended on by libesd0
Package: initscripts
Version: 2.87dsf-2
Severity: wishlist
File: /etc/init.d/checkfs.sh
X-debbugs-Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
I have an idea. Every few days when booting we encounter a file system
check, which takes several minutes. We sit there, helpless,
unable to issue any command. All we
Started happening last week, this became doubled:
$ ls /dev/disk/by-id/ | head -n 1
ata-FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_NN4GT531H3AR
- -
^ ^
Debian Release: squeeze/sid
APT prefers experimental
http://bugs.debian.org/cg
Odd, only the ata- ones are doubled.
$ ls /dev/disk/by-id/
ata-FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_NN4GT531H3AR
ata-FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_NN4GT531H3AR-part1
ata-FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_NN4GT531H3AR-part10
ata-FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_FUJITSU_MHT2040AT_NN4GT531H3AR-part3
ata-HL-DT
> "FZ" == Felix Zielcke writes:
FZ> I'm also running the udev in experimental 146-1 and have the same, but
FZ> it affects only my IDE disk not my SATA ones even though they have an
FZ> ata-* link too:
FZ> $ ls -1 /dev/disk/by-id/
FZ> ata-SAMSUNG_SP1213N_SAMSUNG_SP1213N_S00UJ10X203399
FZ> ata
Gentlemen, I shall be delivering my talk,
"Reflections of a bigtime Debian bug reporter"
http://jidanni.org/comp/bug_reporter.html
at the 2009 Taiwan Mini Debian Conference
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianTaiwan/MiniDebConf2009
2009/09/26-27. Please be gentle.
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I need some help with
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=526521
I want to know the proper package to assign this bug to.
All I know is we are supposed to use iptables recipies to protect our
computers, and when I use
# iptables -A b -m state --state ESTABLISHED,RELATED -j ACCEPT
in /
retitle 526521 add /etc/sysctl.d/iptables.conntrack.accounting.conf
severity 526521 wishlist
thanks
> "LB" == Lars Bahner writes:
LB> You don't really need to file a bug. You need to add a file
LB> /etc/sysctl.d/iptables.conntrack.accounting.conf
LB> which should contain the line:
LB> net
etc/sysctl.conf today. And I still think a
LB> wishlist bug against iptables is appropriate and would have helped
LB> Jidanni, had it existed.
It would have not likely helped me, Jidanni, as I just use cookie cutter
recipes, and all I know is I need to update this recipe I got from
somewhere,
You people are lucky you have me on board.
Because I am a very simple minded person.
All I know is I use some thing documented there on the iptables man
page, and I get a warning. I noticed that warning because I happened to
look in /var/log/syslog one day.
The warning says something worse will
We have added a day trip to the Taiwan Mini-DebConf program, to visit
the Google Corporation, in Taipei 101, the world's tallest building.
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianTaiwan/MiniDebConf2009#Monday2009-09-28
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SpamAssassin is run on Alioth, but its results are ignored.
The spam, though detected, is not separated out from the stream.
We have tried over and over to get in touch with anybody in charge.
Maybe somebody reading debian-devel can tell an Alioth administrator.
http://news.gmane.org/group/gmane
>> SpamAssassin is run on Alioth, but its results are ignored.
>> The spam, though detected, is not separated out from the stream.
SG> This is isn't actually true
$ GET http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.devel.eeepc/2539/raw |grep
X-Spam-Status
X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=9.2 required=5.0
Re: http://news.gmane.org/group/gmane.linux.debian.devel.general/thread=147634
Thank you all for your attention to this issue and allowing us to
finally find people in charge for
http://news.gmane.org/group/gmane.linux.debian.devel.eeepc/thread=2462
Now what is needed is for the spam threshold for
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianTaiwan/MiniDebCamp
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OK, but can somebody adjust the spam filtering on
debian-eeepc-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org
to make it just as spam free as
debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Thanks.
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Say, couldn't there be some automatic checks so we users don't encounter
# apt-get dist-upgrade
ERR: trying to overwrite `some file, which is also in package other_package
Happened twice to me today here on sid, #491457, #493711.
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> "OB" == Olivier Berger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
OB> Le mercredi 06 août 2008 à 08:14 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
>> Say, couldn't there be some automatic checks so we users don't encounter
>> # apt-get dist-upgrade
>> ERR: trying to overwrite `some file, which is also in package ot
How do you pros keep the latest linux-doc package installed, like
linux-image-2.6-686, but for linux-doc? Too barfy:
# set linux-doc-2.6 #virtual package
# dpkg-unhold $@
# apt-get purge linux-doc-2.6.25 #by hand each new version
# apt-get dselect-upgrade; apt-get dist-upgrade #both not strong enou
Say, often a developer upgrades a group of related packages, but they
don't hit the mirrors at the same time. This causes apt-get
dselect-upgrade and dist-upgrade to remove the older parts instead of
holding back for the newer parts. One must use apt-get upgrade for the
many days the condition pers
I.e., here we see apt gets it right for php5, but not for gimp:
# apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true dist-upgrade
Investigating php5
Package php5 has broken dep on libapache2-mod-php5
Package php5 has broken dep on libapache2-mod-php5filter
Package php5 has broken dep on php5-cgi
Or group
AP> apt-get dist-upgrade is not meant to be run on a daily basis on sid, but
AP> only as needed and for when you actually look at the output to make sure
AP> it doesn't remove something you actually want. Second of all, "real men"
AP> use aptitude, which handles these kinds of dependencies in a sma
TF> aptitude safe-upgrade
TF> aptitude dist-upgrade
OK works good and I am sold.
Maybe I can even use aptitude to solve my other posting today
"how to keep the latest linux-doc package installed?"
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>> How do you pros keep the latest linux-doc package installed, like
>> linux-image-2.6-686, but for linux-doc?
PW> Sounds like you want to file a wishlist bug asking for linux-doc-2.6
PW> to become a meta-package built from the linux-latest-2.6 source
PW> package.
Bugs 347284, 480060
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> What is the recommended procedure for changing from e.g. lilo to grub?
> Since you plan to drop lilo post-lenny, I guess this will be a quite
> common question during the lifetime of lenny. Users will notice that
> lilo is being deprecated and wonder how to switch. Maybe something to
> document
Urg..., as titled.
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Gentlemen, I can't take it anymore. That's why I hand it to
$ cat spam-bug-reopener
#!/bin/sh -eu
#reopen a Debian bug closed by spam, which you feed in via stdin
bug=$(
perl -nwe 'if (s/^X-Debian-PR-Message: they-closed (\d+)$/$1/){print;exit}')
if test $bug
then
echo reopen $bug|
mail -s
OK, this reopens and also reports.
#!/bin/sh -eu
#Reopen and report a Debian bug closed by spam, which you feed in via stdin.
bug=$(
perl -nwe 'if (s/^X-Debian-PR-Message: they-closed (\d+)$/$1/){print;exit}')
if test $bug
then
set -x
echo reopen $bug|
mail -s "Reopening $bug closed by
Can somebody up the time the Packages.IndexDiff and associated files
are kept on the mirrors from one week to two please? These very few
more bytes would save low bandwidth users hours in case they don't
return home within the seven days currently allotted.
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I dutifully re-checked each bug.
Today I got another pile in my mailbox to recheck.
I did not check if they were the ones I had just rechecked.
I instead just gave up.
This is the Bank. You have 60 days to respond that you still want the
money in your account.
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Thanks anyway. You are welcome to do what you wish with my firefox bugs.
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Package: general
Severity: wishlist
This message made by several programs is misleading:
# ed /etc/fonts/conf.d/61-traditional.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.d/61-traditional.conf: No such file or directory
q
# ls /etc/fonts/conf.d/61-traditional.conf
ls: /etc/fonts/conf.d/61-traditional.conf: No such file
I guess what bothers me is
>> # ed /etc/fonts/conf.d/61-traditional.conf
>> /etc/fonts/conf.d/61-traditional.conf: No such file or directory
makes me need to check "do I need to create the directory?" instead of
just proceeding to edit the file.
$ vi /zzz/qqq is worse. It only checks when it's tim
found 513142 1.8.42
tags 513142 - unreproducible
notfixed 513142
thanks
I wish the line below,
Please inform the package maintainer about this problem.
would say which package it is talking about. Or at least it could say
"don't tell the maintainers of x y and z'.
Setting up dbconfig-comm
Can somebody put the unihan.txt file back where it belongs via NMU for 551789?
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> "BF" == Ben Finney writes:
BF> explicit as to why you think it's relevant here
I was hoping someone on debian-DEVEL could speed the process with a NMU
or something.
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#> "PW" == Paul Wise writes:
#PW> I think this bug should be reassigned back to the unicode package and
#PW> changed to severity important
reassign 551789 unicode
severity 551789 important
#PW> it needs to be adapted to the latest upstream formats and probably
#PW> also handle the old format t
I had a certain somebody in mind that I wanted to nominate for the post
of Debian Public Relations Director. But alas, no such mechanism exists amongst
$ w3m -dump http://www.debian.org/devel/constitution |grep -i nominate
So never mind.
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Package: general
Severity: wishlist
Many executables in .../sbin have their man pages in section 1 instead
of section 8.
Perhaps a piuparts like script could comb over the apt-file search
results to target them.
Not sure if a policy violation. Or if should be made part of policy.
P.S., I am sur
HL> Do you intend to file individual bugs? I'd appreciate this.
Actually I've filed many individual bugs, some even just today.
Then I got this great idea that instead of me just mentioning in to
packages that I've stumbled into, there could be a systematic combing of
all Debian.
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I tried to find all bugs with "section 8" in their title via
http://bugs.debian.org
An error occurred. Error was: You have to choose something to select by
I'll try this to at least find (most of) mine:
$ w3m -cols -dump
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?submitter=jida...@jidan
Well just like many of the comments to 348864, I just hate the "teasers"
in section 1 that only root can run.
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Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wry4vo
Package: www.debian.org
Tags: security
Severity: wishlist
X-debbugs-cc: debian-...@lists.debian.org,debian-devel@lists.debian.org,
rho...@deb.at
> "GF" == Gerfried Fuchs writes:
GF> Hi!
GF> * [2010-02-22 18:12:46 CET]:
>> Do mention secur...@debian.org on http://www.debian.org/security
It seems for us experimental archive users, most of the year we see e.g.,
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
aptitude: Depends: libapt-pkg-libc6.9-6-4.8 which is a virtual package.
python-apt: Depends: libapt-inst-libc6.9-6-1.1 which is a virtual package.
Depends: li
I don't get it. Even booting still requires bash
$ find grub* -executable|xargs checkbashisms #grub-pc 1.98+20100617-1
script grub-common.preinst is already a bash script; skipping
script grub-pc.postinst is already a bash script; skipping
script grub-pc.postrm is already a bash script; skipping
sc
In Debian Project News - June 14th, 2010
> "AR" == Alexander Reichle-Schmehl writes:
AR> Debian Community Poll
AR> The Poll is available at http://tinyurl.com/3y33ska . Torsten asks to
AR> spread the link to as many users as possible.
And there at tinyurl, we read
|What is the codename of t
Better get those 0 byte files off of the mirrors. Apt is stuck.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=595691
That's the only way to get out of this mess without needing to alert
users.
Get rid of the zero byte files on the mirrors, push out a new apt, and
hope nobody notices.
You can
OK, it seems only debian-multimedia has the problem. I'll tell
maril...@debian.org to please see
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=595691 .
P.S., the way the progress messages appear, one cannot tell which server
we are working with, but instead the last transaction completed etc.
Your posting looks identical to one for a package that didn't yet exist
in Debian.
Readers think when they see the Subject: "I swear I already use a such
named package".
Therefore there should be put into place a system to allow you to use a
different subject.
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>> Yes, my aptitude is frozen right now at the same spot :(
AH> I am also experiencing this, seems to just be a problem with the main
AH> repo. I use http://ftp.uk.debian.org.
The problem is http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=595691
FT> Too late to hope this problem will not be disc
> New and noteworthy packages
> ---
> The following packages were added to the unstable Debian archive recently:
> * rtkit -- Realtime Policy and Watchdog Daemon [97]
> * scenic -- telepresence software for live performances and installations
> [98]
> * sea-defender -
Regarding
W: Failed to fetch
http://emacs.orebokech.com/dists/sid/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz 404 Not
Found
> "RF" == Romain Francoise writes:
RF> Either build from source yourself, or go back to Emacs 23.
Holy moly. My .emacs file has evolved greatly since emacs 23 using your
emacs 24 s
Aren't there any checks in place to prevent a package from becoming
uninstallable?
E.g., bug #615530, #615528.
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Well OK, but can't the package owners get a friendly mail once a day
"yoo hoo Holmes, your package is now broken", lest they relax at the
beach totally unaware one day Auntie Nelda might suddenly have the urge
to use their package in a hurry?
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> "BF" == Ben Finney writes:
BF> Why is Auntie Nelda using the unstable repository? Is she comfortable
BF> running an OS from a repository with no promises about stability? If
BF> not, who advised her to do that?
Let's find out,
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=auntie+nelda
http:/
Speaking about mirrors. I gave up on using them for apt-get update and
haven't looked back since.
* http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=616064
* http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=616489
Works for me!
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Well that is all pleasant and good, and I hope you fellows get your
mirror issues resolved. However I think you fellows should take a lesson
from Google™ who doesn't bother the consumer about mirrors... it's all
under the hood, from best cache worthy HTTP headers to ISPs who use them
best, or who k
Recently I replied to a certain message on this list with my familiar
S W runs the command gnus-summary-wide-reply-with-original
keystrokes, only to receive
>I'm subscribed to the list, no need to CC me:
>http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct
>No need to reply to this message.
And i
> "JV" == James Vega writes:
JV> As for #616489, that doesn't make any sense. How can apt know the hash sums
JV> don't match if it hasn't downloaded the file in order to compute the hash
sum
JV> for comparison?
I don't know. All I know is it also seems to happen at ftp.us.debian.org too.
W
...and when it happens it takes out apt's index files for several hours
# apt-cache policy coreutils
coreutils:
Installed: 8.5-1
Candidate: 8.5-1
Version table:
*** 8.5-1 0
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
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Dear debian-devel: has anybody tried piuparts, pbuilder offline?
You see, often there is some package that I suspect is not
diaper-trained, leaving more than just say footprints in /var/log/
upon purge, or perhaps not cleaning back up the "Registry" (debconf), etc.
So I think: well there's this p
> Just use a local approx mirror.
> Patches are welcome.
I'm saying that if anybody knows how to use piuparts (and/or pbuilder)
offline, then please add an example to the documentation.
Please show all the steps needed, starting at:
# poff
Thank you.
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> "HL" == Holger Levsen writes:
HL> tags 512458 +wontfix
HL> thanks
HL> Hi,
HL> On Montag, 2. Februar 2009, jida...@jidanni.org wrote:
>>> Just use a local approx mirror.
>> I'm saying that if anybody knows how to use piuparts (and/or pbuilder)
>> offline, then please add an example to the
> "LN" == Lucas Nussbaum writes:
LN> - using a local cache/proxy, such as approx, that would have the .debs
LN> you need if you first run piuparts online once on the packages you are
LN> interested in, before running it offline.
I used to run apt-get through WWWOFFLE, but then thought th
I have finally figured out how to remove the items with no owners from
the debconf database.
It took the fancy Makefile below, created by reverse engineering the
extremely complicated debconf system as far as I was able.
The big problem is that it is an extreme mystery how to do just
# debconf-wh
j> good_owners:owners
j> dpkg -l $$(cat $?)|perl -alnwe 'print $$F[1] if /^.[ic]/' > $@
I should have used COLUMNS= dpkg...
I ended up messing up a lot of packages.
That is life here.
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> "AM" == Agustin Martin writes:
AM> You can try /usr/share/debconf/fix_db.pl
AM> IIRC, it checks for templates with no owners.
Ah, Indeed, it seems to mention that in the code.
I wish these things were documented.
$ find /usr/share/man*/m*|grep debconf|xargs zgrep -i fix
$ dlocate bin/debco
Speaking about new control fields, how about "Date:"?
Imagine, "freshness dating available right there on the grocer's
shelf, in Packages.gz. No need for the consumer to jump through
additional hoops to find out."
OK, never mind.
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>> Imagine, "freshness dating available right there on the grocer's
>> shelf, in Packages.gz. No need for the consumer to jump through
>> additional hoops to find out."
PW> Which date would it contain?
The date the maintainer made the polishing touches on the .deb.
That way one could tell, even w
OK, instead of a Date: field in Packages, I can get a better idea of how
well maintained a package is with an "updates vs. bugs" perspective, e.g.,
for package
do for u in http://packages.qa.debian.org/common/index.html?src=$package \
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=$package
B> I actually can't remove the file because Avasys ships
B> debian packages of the epkowa backend. Removing the config file is a
B> no-no here.
B> This has unfortunately always been a problem with conffiles.
J> All I know is dlocate said there is no other owners... sounds like
J> some policy violat
One finds packages depending on obsolete packages, e.g.,
# aptitude -F %p search ?obsolete | xargs -n 1 echo aptitude why|sh -x
+ aptitude why libicu38
i gimpDepends libwebkit-1.0-1 (>= 1.0.1)
i A libwebkit-1.0-1 Depends libicu38 (>= 3.8-5)
+ aptitude why libltdl3
i php5-mcrypt Depe
Or at least nice(1) those calls.
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=533019
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# su - nobody
No directory, logging in with HOME=/
nobody@jidanni2:/$ date > /tmp/cc
nobody@jidanni2:/$ ln -s /tmp/cc /tmp/dd
nobody@jidanni2:/$ ls -l /tmp/cc /tmp/dd
-rw-r--r-- 1 nobody nogroup 29 Sep 7 08:37 /tmp/cc
lrwxrwxrwx 1 nobody nogroup 7 Sep 7 08:37 /tmp/dd -> /tmp/cc
nobody@jidanni2:/
I see.
Who knows what they'll break next.
Perhaps next time add a note to
/usr/share/doc/linux-image-486/NEWS.Debian.gz
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http://dreamhost.com/dreamscape/2013/06/03/change-is-in-the-air-dreamhost-upgrades/
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> "RA" == Russ Allbery writes:
RA> David Bremner writes:
>> jida...@jidanni.org writes:
>>> P.S., why can't all this CPAN <-> Debian updating be a little bit
>>> automated for all the packages on Debian?
>>> At least some queue that some team gets alerted to...
>> there is a queue
>> http
Can somebody update wwwoffle? Upstream has a new version that makes
HTTPS work once again.
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[ http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.devel.general/166498/ ]
> "NW" == Neil Williams writes:
NW> CC'ing the maintainer but if there's no interest in, say, a week, I'll
NW> file for removal instead, RoQA, RC-buggy, low popcon, cruft.
OK, I guess it must end this way. OK, thanks.
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Just curious, let's say version 15.xxx of a package is released but then
found to be faulty, and upstream isn't releasing a new version soon. Can
the developer somehow recall it? But then peoples' apts won't
automatically catch 14.xxx as the new version if 15.xxx is already
installed. Or he can rep
How does one do a simple test to see if one is on the death list?
# grep -c 86 /proc/cpuinfo
0
# lshw | grep -c 86
0
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> "YP" == Yves-Alexis Perez writes:
YP> I'm not sure telling people to use --no-sandbox without telling them
YP> what they lose is a good idea. Sandboxing is here for a reason.
Wish it was documented. Say on the man page.
Of course if they don't use it, they won't be able to browse anything
X-debbugs-CC: michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com, cor...@debian.org,
debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Package: chromium
Version: 15.0.874.106~r107270-1
Severity: wishlist
File: /usr/share/man/man1/chromium.1.gz
> "MG" == Michael Gilbert writes:
>> Wish it was documented. Say on the man page.
MG> You
Forty years of pleasant df(1) and mount(1) reading shattered in one day,
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=653073
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The new symlink on Debian,
$ ls -og /etc/mtab
lrwxrwxrwx 1 12 12-23 22:00 /etc/mtab -> /proc/mounts
Has caused
$ df
Filesystem 1K-blocksUsed
Available Use% Mounted on
rootfs 1071468 287940
I just hate those packages that leave candy bar wrappers all over the
carpet! Go piuparts! Catch them all! And let's hope the highway patrol
will keep those litterbugs off the roads forever! Why just today I had
to manually clean up some more "dog droppings" from 2002. Yuck.
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Re: Debian Project News - January 23rd, 2012
> Debian "is also the fastest growing operating system at the moment:
> every day 54 of the top 1 million sites switch to Debian"
At this rate in
$ expr 100 / 54 / 365
50
years, we will take over the world :-)
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I have an idea,
all /etc/init.d/ script packages should test to see they actually can be
started and stopped before their debs get shipped.
Hmmm, and all bin/ programs should given a test run too... to at least
see they can print --version without segfaulting etc.
Hmmm, all even more important than
It doesn't matter who is to blame.
A simple /etc/init.d/... start test could catch such grave bugs before
they hit the user.
Who is to blame could be figured out internally.
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I wouldn't put all my eggs in the same single file.
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I'm an aging long time user of "sid/unstable".
I never could keep track of all those fun names either.
Therefore yes please Debian should accompany them by their version
number if/when insisting on using them.
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# ... upgrade
Setting up ... (...) ...
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported; falling
back to defaults
Setting up ... (...) ...
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported; falling
back to defaults
So the user, being a responsible citizen,
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