Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 04:07:24PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: BTW, it'd be nice to have a backport of Jitsi. Not sure how much work that would be though (there must be lots of java dependencies...). I recently installed 2.5.5190-1 on Wheezy without much trouble, but imho, the operational issues are much bigger than the possible dependencies (eg. no roster on amd64). Not sure how I to usefully contribute, though... their Wiki basically says (my perception only) spend your days with us, or go away. Kind regards, --Toni++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140412232536.ga20...@spruce.wiehl.oeko.net
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 01:33:15PM +0200, Martín Ferrari wrote: On 30/03/14 15:20, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Please use https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications as starting point. There is already link to a (mini-)HOWTO on some server setup, but if that does not adequately cover conference calls (I haven't tried yet myself) then consider extending that wiki page instead of sharing details here ;-) What I see missing from the Wiki page and this discussion are other SIP clients, like linphone, Yate client, SFLphone, etc. Coincidentally, linphone and Yate are the best I have found so far. Each one with its own limitations and strenghts. Go ahead and add them to the wiki. I occasionally use linphone though find its interface lacking. SFLphone is likewise rough. I have not managed to get anything useful done with yate-client. At the same time, my experience with Jitsi was not great. I have just installed it again to try it out, and it just fails to connect to any of my accounts, I am guessing it is choking on IPv6. Are there any other clients with IPv6 issues? Also, seeing the amount of exceptions it throws on the console is not really reassuring. I'm with you on that. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140406153831.gr16...@lemon.cohens.org.il
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 06/04/14 17:38, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 01:33:15PM +0200, Martín Ferrari wrote: On 30/03/14 15:20, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Please use https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications as starting point. There is already link to a (mini-)HOWTO on some server setup, but if that does not adequately cover conference calls (I haven't tried yet myself) then consider extending that wiki page instead of sharing details here ;-) What I see missing from the Wiki page and this discussion are other SIP clients, like linphone, Yate client, SFLphone, etc. Coincidentally, linphone and Yate are the best I have found so far. Each one with its own limitations and strenghts. Go ahead and add them to the wiki. I occasionally use linphone though find its interface lacking. SFLphone is likewise rough. I have not managed to get anything useful done with yate-client. At the same time, my experience with Jitsi was not great. I have just installed it again to try it out, and it just fails to connect to any of my accounts, I am guessing it is choking on IPv6. Are there any other clients with IPv6 issues? Jisti IPv6 problems? They are supposed to be one of the leaders in things like that, you may want to ask on their mailing list http://www.internetsociety.org/deploy360/blog/2013/03/video-emil-ivov-about-jitsi-a-voip-softphone-supporting-ipv6-and-dnssec/ repro SIP proxy fully supports IPv6 on the server side and is a good platform to test against. Lumicall doesn't support IPv6 at all though -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/534192eb.7010...@pocock.com.au
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
previously on this list Russ Allbery contributed: I guess you missed all the exploits in JAVA over the years and especially last year where it was banned for long periods from all browsers. To the point that the pressure is building on web hosts to drop JAVA KVM clients completely. Most of the exploits in Java (I have no idea why you write the word in all caps) Just from the logo, the one I see on Windows boxes as I don't really see one anywhere else and avoid it wherever possible and which is the correct stance to take for multiple reasons. http://blog.trendmicro.com/trendlabs-security-intelligence/java-native-layer-exploits-going-up/ are flaws in the sandbox security model. While those are real vulnerabilities in the context of running untrusted Java applets downloaded from the network, they're not horribly interesting in the context of running trusted applications installed through normal signed apt repositories. Not horribly interesting isn't saying much and the rediculous number of vulns on osvdb this year alone not to mention the bloatedness and ability to run jars in such a complex beast outside the unix security model by default is more than enough to rule out any default java apps in I'm sure many peoples opinion. Heck CESG guidelines say to get rid of small parsers like perl and shell access. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd ___ I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool to help psychopaths learn to control their anger. (Kevin Chadwick) ___ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/676094.53700...@smtp120.mail.ir2.yahoo.com
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 30/03/14 15:20, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Please use https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications as starting point. There is already link to a (mini-)HOWTO on some server setup, but if that does not adequately cover conference calls (I haven't tried yet myself) then consider extending that wiki page instead of sharing details here ;-) What I see missing from the Wiki page and this discussion are other SIP clients, like linphone, Yate client, SFLphone, etc. Coincidentally, linphone and Yate are the best I have found so far. Each one with its own limitations and strenghts. At the same time, my experience with Jitsi was not great. I have just installed it again to try it out, and it just fails to connect to any of my accounts, I am guessing it is choking on IPv6. Also, seeing the amount of exceptions it throws on the console is not really reassuring. Empathy was simply not usable for me, specially if you had any kind of connection issues, it seemed impossible to debug, and the async nature of its modules was infuriating. Note that my criteria here is being able to make SIP voice calls, I don't really care about the rest, but still to this day I don't think there is a single decent SIP client in Debian, which will give me good audio quality, support multiple accounts reasonably, survive disconnections or other network issues, be integrated with some address book, work over NAT issues more or less painlessly, and have a decent UI. -- Martín Ferrari (Tincho) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/533bf57b.7010...@tincho.org
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 03/31/2014 08:27 PM, Jean-Michel Nirgal Vourgère wrote: Empathy was lacking OTR encryption for text, last time I checked. Jitsi does support it ok, so I can continue to do secure chat with my existing contacts from pidgin (previously known as gaim). BTW, it'd be nice to have a backport of Jitsi. Not sure how much work that would be though (there must be lots of java dependencies...). Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/533a73bc.8040...@debian.org
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
- Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote: And yes, Java sux! :/ And it's going to take *a lot* of space on the CD1. This should therefore be discussed on the debian-cd list as well. I don't think that only the argument it's better because of this or that feature would be the only one (unfortunately). Java sux is so 1990s. Java produces faster results than most of the other advanced languages (python, ruby, perl, etc.), has better support for threads, an enormous range of support libraries and is Free Software. Eclipse is probably the most popular Free Software IDE in the world. Assertions about the space it takes up are fair but why not leave java sux type comments to the trolls, where they belong? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/30457674.80051396371033364.javamail.r...@newmail.brainfood.com
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
First of all, I agree that we should provide a system that is as usable as possible. If a desktop environment such as Gnome chooses to use an inferior product, we don't have to let _our_ users suffer from that choice. Having a client which integrates well with the system is nice, but what's more important is having one that actually works for communication with others (including video, audio, chat, encryption, and including communication with people who don't use Debian, or even something GNU-based). On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 11:50:33AM -0500, Ean Schuessler wrote: Java sux is so 1990s. Java produces faster results than most of the other advanced languages (python, ruby, perl, etc.), has better support for threads, an enormous range of support libraries and is Free Software. That may be true, but when I tried running Jitsi some time ago and it didn't work, the first thing I was told was You need to use Oracle's JVM (which is non-free). (From Daniel's message I take it that problem is resolved? I'll try it again then. Btw: thanks Daniel for all your work on this!) I see the problem of all the bloat that comes with Java, but it is minor. The main problem is still https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html In particular To reliably ensure your Java programs run fine in a free environment, you need to develop them using IcedTea. Theoretically the Java platforms should be compatible, but they are not compatible 100 percent. Thanks, Bas signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Bas Wijnen wij...@debian.org writes: I see the problem of all the bloat that comes with Java, but it is minor. The main problem is still https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html In particular To reliably ensure your Java programs run fine in a free environment, you need to develop them using IcedTea. Theoretically the Java platforms should be compatible, but they are not compatible 100 percent. We use Java relatively heavily at work, and I've got to say that this is largely a thing of the past. If you're developing against Java 7, and to a large extent Java 6, you will be very hard-pressed to tell the difference between OpenJDK and the Oracle Java implementation. With Java 5 and earlier, this was indeed a problem, and a lot of things wouldn't work unless you ran them with the Oracle Java. But sometimes software gets better. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87d2h0g4ls@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
previously on this list Bas Wijnen contributed: I see the problem of all the bloat that comes with Java, but it is minor. The main problem is still https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html I guess you missed all the exploits in JAVA over the years and especially last year where it was banned for long periods from all browsers. To the point that the pressure is building on web hosts to drop JAVA KVM clients completely. I'm starting to question if Debian takes security and correctness seriously enough. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd ___ I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool to help psychopaths learn to control their anger. (Kevin Chadwick) ___ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/92558.69695...@smtp146.mail.ir2.yahoo.com
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk writes: I guess you missed all the exploits in JAVA over the years and especially last year where it was banned for long periods from all browsers. To the point that the pressure is building on web hosts to drop JAVA KVM clients completely. Most of the exploits in Java (I have no idea why you write the word in all caps) are flaws in the sandbox security model. While those are real vulnerabilities in the context of running untrusted Java applets downloaded from the network, they're not horribly interesting in the context of running trusted applications installed through normal signed apt repositories. I'm starting to question if Debian takes security and correctness seriously enough. While we would be sad to lose your insightful commentary in debian-devel, I'm sure we'd all understand if you felt like you needed to move to a different distribution. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87zjk4elhy@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
* Daniel Pocock dan...@pocock.pro [2014-03-30 11:04]: I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging, VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie). This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs. (...) Thank you for your evalutaion and +1 on making it the default client. I infrequently (every other year) try a software VoIP client and so far it has always wasted much of my time trying different ones that claim to support whatever but don't actualy do so in a stable way. It would be great to have a default client that simply works in 98 out of 100 times. Yours Martin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140331073853.gw3...@anguilla.debian.or.at
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Le dimanche 30 mars 2014 à 11:04 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : Currently, Empathy is installed by default Empathy is the default for GNOME, and I do not see a convincing reason to change that. The default for Xfce (which is currently the default desktop) should be decided by the Xfce maintainers. However, given the current state of Java in Debian, it would be extremely unwise to install software depending on it in the default installation. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1396258020.5311.276.camel@dsp0698014
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 31/03/14 10:27, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le dimanche 30 mars 2014 à 11:04 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : Currently, Empathy is installed by default I think you might be conflating present in a default desktop installation with recommended by the project for all of its possible functionality. IIRC we install nano and nvi by default, but I think most DDs would recommend emacs, vim and/or a GUI editor over either of those for many purposes :-) Empathy is the default for GNOME, and I do not see a convincing reason to change that. hat type=Debian pkg-telepathy maintainer Empathy is a simple UI for text chat, presence, file transfer and basic VoIP with excellent GNOME integration. It is appropriate to include it in some GNOME metapackage; I have no opinion on whether it should be in a tasksel-driven installation of Debian-with-GNOME[1]. It is not currently a replacement for a fully-featured telephony stack: if you pick a random high-quality SIP implementation, it probably does several things that Empathy/Telepathy don't. Users with enterprise VoIP requirements are likely to be better off with something else. I have not assessed whether Jitsi is the correct something else, but it's one possibility. Would it address your concerns about Empathy if the gnome metapackage's dependency on telepathy-rakia was weakened to Suggests, resulting in Empathy lacking SIP support in a default Debian-with-GNOME installation? /hat hat type=Telepathy upstream maintainer Like Pidgin, Telepathy primarily comes from an instant messaging background/history: it mainly competes with Pidgin, Google Talk, Skype etc. The fact that some of its supported protocols can also be seen as competing with the PSTN is currently secondary. We don't currently have enough developer time to be trying to compete with a fully-featured telephony stack (and in particular, the former primary maintainer of our SIP implementation, which was never particularly comprehensive anyway, is no longer active). Anyone who wants to close the gap is more than welcome to help us. In particular, we would love to see: * an upstream maintainer for our SIP implementation and the library behind it (telepathy-rakia + sofia-sip), or a new SIP connection manager replacing Rakia using a more actively-maintained library * a reasonable UI design, and the implementation to back it up, for out-of-band configuration of TURN servers and TURN credentials * a XEP for automatic provisioning of TURN credentials from XMPP servers (functionality equivalent to what telepathy-gabble supports for Google Talk), so that users of XMPP services other than Google Talk can use their service's TURN servers transparently * encrypted RTP via keys negotiated through the server (trusting the server - more trust involved than full end-to-end security, but also much much easier) * full end-to-end security (fair warning: this is Hard, and unlikely to be a good project for beginners - try something else first) but for any of those to happen, someone else is going to have to drive it. /hat Regards, S [1] i.e. what would be the default Debian installation if the default desktop is switched back to GNOME -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53393f7f.4010...@debian.org
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 31/03/14 11:27, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le dimanche 30 mars 2014 à 11:04 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : Currently, Empathy is installed by default Empathy is the default for GNOME, and I do not see a convincing reason to change that. The default for Xfce (which is currently the default desktop) should be decided by the Xfce maintainers. Why is that a decision for the XFCE or GNOME maintainers? Why should the maintainers of the desktop drag down the VoIP/RTC experience for everybody to push their own pet projects even if it is only suitable for limited use cases or violates the privacy expectations of our users (as is the case with Empathy)? Why should the Debian community not be free to mix and match those components that are best suited for the task? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53394029.1020...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 31/03/14 12:12, Simon McVittie wrote: On 31/03/14 10:27, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le dimanche 30 mars 2014 à 11:04 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : Currently, Empathy is installed by default I think you might be conflating present in a default desktop installation with recommended by the project for all of its possible functionality. IIRC we install nano and nvi by default, but I think most DDs would recommend emacs, vim and/or a GUI editor over either of those for many purposes :-) Empathy is the default for GNOME, and I do not see a convincing reason to change that. hat type=Debian pkg-telepathy maintainer Empathy is a simple UI for text chat, presence, file transfer and basic VoIP with excellent GNOME integration. It is appropriate to include it in some GNOME metapackage; I have no opinion on whether it should be in a tasksel-driven installation of Debian-with-GNOME[1]. Just to clarify, it is not mandatory to install any of Empathy at all when installing a GNOME desktop and the whole of Empathy could be left out if GNOME is the desktop and another client (like Jitsi or Pidgin) was preferred by the Debian community? It is not currently a replacement for a fully-featured telephony stack: if you pick a random high-quality SIP implementation, it probably does several things that Empathy/Telepathy don't. Users with enterprise VoIP requirements are likely to be better off with something else. I have not assessed whether Jitsi is the correct something else, but it's one possibility. Would it address your concerns about Empathy if the gnome metapackage's dependency on telepathy-rakia was weakened to Suggests, resulting in Empathy lacking SIP support in a default Debian-with-GNOME installation? Quite the opposite - if somebody does choose Empathy, I'm quite happy for them to automatically benefit from telepathy-rakia if that is the only option for SIP support within Empathy. If there were two possible SIP modules for Empathy, then it would be nice to have a way to choose and not be locked in to one of them. The bigger worry is choosing things like a) which client handles the xmpp: and sip: URIs by default. b) should the client run automatically on login (with an easy way for users to disable it) and if so, which client /hat hat type=Telepathy upstream maintainer Like Pidgin, Telepathy primarily comes from an instant messaging background/history: it mainly competes with Pidgin, Google Talk, Skype etc. The fact that some of its supported protocols can also be seen as competing with the PSTN is currently secondary. The XMPP support is quite effective and compelling too, as long as TURN is not required for an audio/video call. I've used Empathy a lot for XMPP. We don't currently have enough developer time to be trying to compete with a fully-featured telephony stack (and in particular, the former primary maintainer of our SIP implementation, which was never particularly comprehensive anyway, is no longer active). Anyone who wants to close the gap is more than welcome to help us. In particular, we would love to see: * an upstream maintainer for our SIP implementation and the library behind it (telepathy-rakia + sofia-sip), or a new SIP connection manager replacing Rakia using a more actively-maintained library Just some comments on that: a) reSIProcate is an excellent choice for a SIP stack, but as it is C++, I don't know if you would go with it b) Asterisk recently moved to PJSIP, so that might also be a better choice than Sofia SIP c) the FreeSWITCH people have forked Sofia SIP, so if there is no other option, then it may be desirable to get in sync with their fork then there will be a higher chance of packaging FreeSWITCH and also a higher chance of keeping up to date with security * a reasonable UI design, and the implementation to back it up, for out-of-band configuration of TURN servers and TURN credentials * a XEP for automatic provisioning of TURN credentials from XMPP servers (functionality equivalent to what telepathy-gabble supports for Google Talk), so that users of XMPP services other than Google Talk can use their service's TURN servers transparently * encrypted RTP via keys negotiated through the server (trusting the server - more trust involved than full end-to-end security, but also much much easier) WebRTC expects DTLS-SRTP negotiation. Many users also want ZRTP. Libraries are available for both, but there is work involved to get it into Empathy. * full end-to-end security (fair warning: this is Hard, and unlikely to be a good project for beginners - try something else first) but for any of those to happen, someone else is going to have to drive it. Thanks for clarifying all of that My reading of this situation is that these are not things that are currently scheduled to happen before the Jessie freeze If developers were keen to help and spend time in this area, would it be better to spend that
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Just my personal experience regarding this. I tried to use Jitsi for past several months (maybe even a year) on GNOME but while it does look the most promising VoIP client out there it was very buggy for me (using testing, with sometimes bits from unstable and experimental). Buggy - if I choose to exit app but not quit it (running in background) I can not get it back (gnome-shell shows that there is that app but its invisible), sometimes some part of menu get lost or get a top of each other (all this actually happens almost at every jitsi run), never had a video conference with it (with another jitsi user) and I do not recommend it for small systems because it eats a lot of memory (just to run it its about 250mb of RAM). On the other hand I tried used Empathy in past (GNOME 2 etc) but never got video conference/chat working but I installed it last month and must say I had no problem - beside it greatly integrates with gnome-shell it was matter of minutes to set it and video conference was done out of box (with telepathy user from KDE desktop). So maybe Empathy should be default but also JitMeet (as I hear from lot of people) could be included in default. Cheers, zlatan On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Daniel Pocock dan...@pocock.pro wrote: On 31/03/14 11:27, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le dimanche 30 mars 2014 à 11:04 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : Currently, Empathy is installed by default Empathy is the default for GNOME, and I do not see a convincing reason to change that. The default for Xfce (which is currently the default desktop) should be decided by the Xfce maintainers. Why is that a decision for the XFCE or GNOME maintainers? Why should the maintainers of the desktop drag down the VoIP/RTC experience for everybody to push their own pet projects even if it is only suitable for limited use cases or violates the privacy expectations of our users (as is the case with Empathy)? Why should the Debian community not be free to mix and match those components that are best suited for the task? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53394029.1020...@pocock.pro -- Please while sending me text documents pay attention that they are by ISO standard that is in .odt format (For sending other types of documents please also refer to ISO/Open standars). Its not the COST, its the VALUE!
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
]] Daniel Pocock On 31/03/14 11:27, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le dimanche 30 mars 2014 à 11:04 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : Currently, Empathy is installed by default Empathy is the default for GNOME, and I do not see a convincing reason to change that. The default for Xfce (which is currently the default desktop) should be decided by the Xfce maintainers. Why is that a decision for the XFCE or GNOME maintainers? Because they have an integrated vision of how the desktop environment they're building should fit together. [...] Why should the Debian community not be free to mix and match those components that are best suited for the task? Debian gives the maintainers of packages extensive freedom to manage their packages as they wish. This is even more true for metapackages like xfce or gnome, since their entire reason for existing is to pull together existing sets of packages into a coherent experience. That means everything from «apps must use NM» to «apps must use Gtk and theming» and so on. You're of course free to provide your own desktop environment which doesn't care about the same set of things as the existing ones do. Or, you could fix the software you care about so it adheres to the guidelines for the existing desktops and then convince the maintainers (or upstream) to adopt your favourite as their new default. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87txaeiqkl@xoog.err.no
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Le lundi 31 mars 2014 à 12:37 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : Just to clarify, it is not mandatory to install any of Empathy at all when installing a GNOME desktop and the whole of Empathy could be left out if GNOME is the desktop and another client (like Jitsi or Pidgin) was preferred by the Debian community? You can use any software you like with GNOME. But AFAIK only Empathy is based on Telepathy, which means only Empathy gets integration with GNOME. Only Telepathy accounts will be started up automatically and their conversations integrated in the shell. I agree that Empathy lacks things as a SIP client. But I strongly disagree with the idea of moving away from it as the default IM client for GNOME. If SIP support in Empathy is not ready for jessie, we can still remove the SIP parts and let the user install a SIP client of her choice. If developers were keen to help and spend time in this area, would it be better to spend that effort on getting Jitsi (or another softphone) to work more smoothly within GNOME or to get Empathy to fill in the gaps discussed in this email or something else? Improving the state of the SIP Telepathy stack is definitely the best way to go for our users. But back in squeeze, such a thing did not exist and we shipped a different client by default for SIP. I would definitely object to shipping one based on Java, though, unless it can work with GCJ. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1396265380.5311.298.camel@dsp0698014
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 31/03/14 13:29, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 31 mars 2014 à 12:37 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : Just to clarify, it is not mandatory to install any of Empathy at all when installing a GNOME desktop and the whole of Empathy could be left out if GNOME is the desktop and another client (like Jitsi or Pidgin) was preferred by the Debian community? You can use any software you like with GNOME. But AFAIK only Empathy is based on Telepathy, which means only Empathy gets integration with GNOME. Only Telepathy accounts will be started up automatically and their conversations integrated in the shell. I agree that Empathy lacks things as a SIP client. But I strongly disagree with the idea of moving away from it as the default IM client for GNOME. If SIP support in Empathy is not ready for jessie, we can still remove the SIP parts and let the user install a SIP client of her choice. The problems with Empathy are not specific to SIP Most of the problems are the same for XMPP e.g. a TURN server to relay media across unfriendly NAT routers can be used to support any type of media stream for a SIP call, an XMPP webcam session or a pure WebRTC browser session. Empathy doesn't currently support standard TURN for any protocol (except a special case for Google Talk users) and as Simon explained in his email, there is work involved to change that. The Jitsi people have done that work. They may also be willing to take steps towards achieving better desktop integration, maybe not perfectly, but maybe sufficient to give the best all-round user experience. Right now, there is time to discuss that with them with a realistic possibility that it would meet our needs for Jessie However, we need to be willing to say that if they are the first (or only) ones who do the work and hit that threshold before November, we will give them a fair go If developers were keen to help and spend time in this area, would it be better to spend that effort on getting Jitsi (or another softphone) to work more smoothly within GNOME or to get Empathy to fill in the gaps discussed in this email or something else? Improving the state of the SIP Telepathy stack is definitely the best way to go for our users. But back in squeeze, such a thing did not exist and we shipped a different client by default for SIP. Simon has already explained that development on SIP has stopped and that development of TURN support (for SIP or XMPP) doesn't have any immediate resources. How do you propose to resolve that? Arguing that it is the best way to go for our users doesn't make new development happen. I would definitely object to shipping one based on Java, though, unless it can work with GCJ. That, too, is another example of making a statement about something without giving any reasons for it. Please be more specific and then maybe people can address your concerns. Given the time between now and the freeze, I think it would be quite reasonable to send requests like this (please clarify GCJ support) to the Jitsi users list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53395c75.7000...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Le lundi 31 mars 2014 à 14:15 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : The Jitsi people have done that work. They may also be willing to take steps towards achieving better desktop integration, maybe not perfectly, but maybe sufficient to give the best all-round user experience. Right now, there is time to discuss that with them with a realistic possibility that it would meet our needs for Jessie Are they willing to put their work in the form of a Telepathy backend? -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1396270087.5311.309.camel@dsp0698014
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 31/03/14 14:48, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 31 mars 2014 à 14:15 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : The Jitsi people have done that work. They may also be willing to take steps towards achieving better desktop integration, maybe not perfectly, but maybe sufficient to give the best all-round user experience. Right now, there is time to discuss that with them with a realistic possibility that it would meet our needs for Jessie Are they willing to put their work in the form of a Telepathy backend? Why not ask them directly? However, it would also be helpful to clarify whether Telepathy will even be a priority if XFCE remains the default desktop -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5339696a.8090...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Empathy was lacking OTR encryption for text, last time I checked. Jitsi does support it ok, so I can continue to do secure chat with my existing contacts from pidgin (previously known as gaim). signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-31 15:11:06) On 31/03/14 14:48, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 31 mars 2014 à 14:15 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : The Jitsi people have done that work. They may also be willing to take steps towards achieving better desktop integration, maybe not perfectly, but maybe sufficient to give the best all-round user experience. Right now, there is time to discuss that with them with a realistic possibility that it would meet our needs for Jessie Are they willing to put their work in the form of a Telepathy backend? Why not ask them directly? However, it would also be helpful to clarify whether Telepathy will even be a priority if XFCE remains the default desktop Please aim not only for defaults. It is relevant to care about the major desktops - i.e. those we offer initial install CDs for. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 31/03/14 15:31, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-31 15:11:06) On 31/03/14 14:48, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 31 mars 2014 à 14:15 +0200, Daniel Pocock a écrit : The Jitsi people have done that work. They may also be willing to take steps towards achieving better desktop integration, maybe not perfectly, but maybe sufficient to give the best all-round user experience. Right now, there is time to discuss that with them with a realistic possibility that it would meet our needs for Jessie Are they willing to put their work in the form of a Telepathy backend? Why not ask them directly? However, it would also be helpful to clarify whether Telepathy will even be a priority if XFCE remains the default desktop Please aim not only for defaults. It is relevant to care about the major desktops - i.e. those we offer initial install CDs for. At the moment, the default for a lot of users is a non-free solution that cares little for GNOME or any other free desktop. I, too, feel that having a nice Telepathy-based solution would be a positive thing - but I haven't seen any evidence that anybody has committed to develop it before the Jessie freeze. If that was to change I'd be more than happy to test it and evaluate it on its merits and provide whatever feedback and encouragement I could. That said, if Jitsi (or one of the other free softphones) does manage to expand the free communication userbase significantly and keep us in touch with the WebRTC world, this may provide more motivation for the GNOME Project and others to rally around standards like TURN and then people will have a nice Telepathy-based solution for Jessie+1 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/533978f7.3080...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 03/30/2014 10:33 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote: On Sun, 2014-03-30 at 22:09 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: Apart maybe if you talk about your mum, which anyway wouldn't install Argument from sexism? Don't you help your mum (which I except to know less about Debian than a DD would)? Most people do. I don't see any sexism here. To me, it looks a lot more logic and probable that those who don't know just don't care about VoIP. Those who need a VoIP client will have enough knowledge to choose. [...] And this sort of attitude is why Skype has won. Skype won because it is a very good software that works well. Not because it has been chosen by default by Linux distributions. If there was something as good as skype in the free software world, we wouldn't even have to bother: everyone would know about it and install it if it wasn't there by default. Thomas P.S: Anyway, if it's technically possible to get Jitsi in by default, I wouldn't oppose to that if others think it's the correct thing to do. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/533997ac.3060...@debian.org
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
I use JAVA for eclipse (mostly good but a bit of a pain at times but I need a particular plugin for embedded work, commercial prog dependence in other cases) but think JAVA by default would be a big negative even aside from being a dpig, especially for anything network facing and especially without config lock down. Does it require the web plugin? p.s. I've been waiting/hoping to get a proper *nix/nux on my phone but do any of them work with Android and Iphone as they are a bit pointless without friends and I don't like whatsapp as it's made my phone act a bit funny and has eaten up valuable memory. Tox has been mentioned on the OpenBSD ports list recently which got my attention and has a pidgin plugin and android client but I think you would need ekiga/asterisk for sip and it's stated as not 'complete' yet too. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd ___ I have no idea why RTFM is used so aggressively on LINUX mailing lists because whilst 'apropos' is traditionally the most powerful command on Unix-like systems it's 'modern' replacement 'apropos' on Linux is a tool to help psychopaths learn to control their anger. (Kevin Chadwick) ___ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/481258.86380...@smtp150.mail.ir2.yahoo.com
default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging, VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie). This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs. Currently, Empathy is installed by default There are several reasons I am suggesting this and it is possible that Empathy could address some of them before the release freeze in November but we should be completely prepared to go with Jitsi if they continue to be the leaders in this area. * Google dependency: Empathy is hard-coded[1] to use Google media relay (TURN) servers for NAT traversal. It can't be configured to use a TURN server on a Debian server, even though we have three TURN servers packaged for our users. This means that when Google shifts the goal posts (as they already did, ditching true XMPP to promote Google hangouts[2]) or when they have a service outage[3] then Debian's users are left high and dry. There are also privacy concerns, Google themselves report a 120% increase in the amount of data they officially and knowingly give to their government[4]. Jitsi supports any user-specified TURN server for XMPP and they plan to support TURN for SIP too. * Convenient NAPTR discovery. Empathy does not autoconfigure itself with services (such as Debian.org's own SIP proxy) that have NAPTR records in DNS[5]. With Jitsi, this just works. * WebRTC integration (calling from browsers to Jitsi desktop). This depends on new media stream features (e.g. DTLS-SRTP and AVPF) that are not supported in Empathy yet[6]. * ZRTP - peer to peer encryption, like PGP for VoIP. Once again, it has been in Jitsi for ages but is not in Empathy[7] * Upstream. Both Empathy and Jitsi upstreams are very good developers. Jitsi seem to have an edge though. Just look at how quickly they turned out the JitMeet multi-party video conferencing solution[8] for WebRTC browsers - it is a phenomenal achievement and delivered in good time to help free software gain traction in the emerging WebRTC space before any vested interests try to monopolize the technology. The whole real-time communications (RTC) space is very important for free software in general. If it fails to work conveniently and reliably, the peer pressure of family and friends pull people back into dangerous non-free solutions. Some of these solutions are a threat to the whole concept of free software on mainstream desktops. With all the recent attention on communications privacy, there has never been a better time for Debian to try and fill this gap with a solution like Jitsi on the front-end and the various free SIP/XMPP/TURN servers in the back-end. To put it simply, the Jitsi team are blazing a trail in this area and a Debian initiative to install Jitsi on every desktop will give them more momentum and ensure more people can talk to each other in line with our agreed definition of freedom. 1. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=704234 2. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/05/google-abandons-open-standards-instant-messaging 3. http://www.cnet.com/news/outage-hits-google-talk-hangouts/ 4. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26786593 5. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=736149#10 6. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/telepathy/2012-June/006122.html 7. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589778 8. https://jitsi.org/Projects/JitMeet -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTN94bAAoJEOm1uwJp1aqDRkgP/0jKZ2GfrIIxTy70p8b5PFDo e9KKTkDTEINpwAdeyP2BpX5BLTEtuzgRZh+AQi7HZHbPAfCq8Cf24FjJfQyY0AgC jDpzuX05ahNExPbpWOW4OGwinJ4S3kaPG5/o/IQC66y9tUdH0Lrh8AIvmvEgIJ9j K0Nb669heMCdrn77ihbk9MtJlGvCE1KVOnrg+SrQLSEE1HsXk8iTXlyoGfE2T/ho 24PxrKwhnjFoojIe0c2f/cMTMOL3prHyndYZB/Q86AiKExCow+6WtSwzb3po153i USHFS/e+lA1+GquJXYiJq1FMUB+HiPaLer241yodqr7R5mqSD4igiF7/oQzywYId OcxjqaLZVGxcqd5s+hmv2vCf3FXC21uDeBULZYP6TulELPGK1i6EJPpg0JqiWZbD rE8Zs1a9W0zLOamc6jpMMx/rMC1Pml00Y69ek/c1uXW3YfxaEsiyV4cv+i99XU5B hkkmQf5DbV+P3nQqblIkNPTydWlN/spsaLitWQsfr0cG3l4ZH+zCHKoNVl87g7Sy CCv8FsnyhJy2wOdB//1OreDRmNK28UWwv+GM3Kf2/BI9oylbBmGbN8q3luy8KlQd NHAledDQ0c2xEnCK0VF5NtOCQyY+cQriPcTUt1MSpq+m2mnqYj40VqBiDJITf/zz xF+ESMftdl5n0cqmMNQJ =UwwC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5337de1f.9000...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: Currently, Empathy is installed by default The default desktop is now Xfce, which doesn't use Empathy. http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/t/tasksel/unstable_changelog If you want GNOME to switch from Empathy to jitsi I think that would be a conversation that should be had with upstream, not with Debian. I doubt they would be interested in it due to the Java requirement though. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caktje6egbfpyyorugzv_xceybolypbg0beun9zacrkh9med...@mail.gmail.com
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 30/03/14 11:22, Paul Wise wrote: On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: Currently, Empathy is installed by default The default desktop is now Xfce, which doesn't use Empathy. http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/t/tasksel/unstable_changelog Their wiki doesn't emphasize any particular IM/VoIP client, although Jitsi is mentioned there: https://wiki.xfce.org/recommendedapps Even if no client is installed by the default window manager package's declared dependencies, it is still quite reasonable to include an IM/VoIP client (such as Jitsi) in task-desktop for example. If you want GNOME to switch from Empathy to jitsi I think that would be a conversation that should be had with upstream, not with Debian. I doubt they would be interested in it due to the Java requirement though. Whichever desktop is in use, why does Debian have to accept what upstream recommends as an IM/VoIP client if we know something else is going to give users far greater chance of success? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5337e894.1060...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 03/30/2014 05:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: ZRTP - peer to peer encryption, like PGP for VoIP. Once again, it has been in Jitsi for ages but is not in Empathy[7] To me, this is the most important feature of them all, and is IMO mandatory nowadays. But do you know if Asterisk (or other VoIP servers) are configured to accept such important feature by default? On 03/30/2014 05:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: JitMeet multi-party video conferencing solution[8] for WebRTC browsers You should remove the s at browsers. It only supports Chrome(ium). By the way, do you know if it's easy to setup conference calls the way there is with JitMeet / Hangout, but without a web browser, eg directly on a VoIP software? Can Jitsi do that? Cheers, Thomas P.S: I don't really care which client is the default, because I find the concept of default app bad in itself, and I think users should be given the choice, and it isn't the role of a distribution to choose for its users. However, if we *have* to have a default, probably Jitsi is a good choice. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5337f218.60...@debian.org
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Hi, Thomas Goirand: P.S: I don't really care which client is the default, because I find the concept of default app bad in itself, and I think users should be given the choice, and it isn't the role of a distribution to choose for its users. However, if we *have* to have a default, probably Jitsi is a good choice. Most new users don't know enough to choose. Worse, for almost any task Debian has a heap of different packages whose description sounds like it'd fit the requirements, but which actually does something else. It's the difference between give them a choice if they want to and overwhelm them with choices. -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 11:04:31) I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging, VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie). This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs. Currently, Empathy is installed by default There are several reasons I am suggesting this and it is possible that Empathy could address some of them before the release freeze in November but we should be completely prepared to go with Jitsi if they continue to be the leaders in this area. Thanks for all your tremendous work in this field, Daniel. Is there some comparison available e.g. at our wiki? I am thinking something like https://wiki.debian.org/Groupware - I know there is https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications and a bunch of sub-pages but there I have located only install guides, no comparison, which I find essential for a discussion like you raise here. Putting it on wiki instead of summarizing in an email, you encourage contribution from others (I happen to use Pidgin, for example, and might attempt to fill in the bits for that in a comparison chart if it existed, but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to put up a chart myself - you seem quite knowledgeable and might even have the data already. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Hi, On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 11:04:31AM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- [Snip an impressive list of arguments for Jitsi] To put it simply, the Jitsi team are blazing a trail in this area and a Debian initiative to install Jitsi on every desktop will give them more momentum and ensure more people can talk to each other in line with our agreed definition of freedom. I generally agree and I'm generally quite happy with Jitsi, but I'd like to point out some issues: 1. I was not abot to get bonjour instant-messaging working. Does Jitsi support it? This is soemthing I want to use on the LAN at work. 2. The user interface could use some improvement. It feels a bit out of place. Not a deal-breaker, though. 3. I haven't used empathy extensively. I used pidgin. Jitsi seems to consume more resources than pidgin. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140330103603.go16...@lemon.cohens.org.il
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 30/03/14 12:29, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 03/30/2014 05:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: ZRTP - peer to peer encryption, like PGP for VoIP. Once again, it has been in Jitsi for ages but is not in Empathy[7] To me, this is the most important feature of them all, and is IMO mandatory nowadays. But do you know if Asterisk (or other VoIP servers) are configured to accept such important feature by default? On 03/30/2014 05:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: JitMeet multi-party video conferencing solution[8] for WebRTC browsers You should remove the s at browsers. It only supports Chrome(ium). Most of my own WebRTC stuff started out only supporting Chromium but Firefox support was not hard to add as well. Chrome developers are also moving to be more Firefox-like (e.g. using DTLS-SRTP and dropping SDES) and that will force many projects to get in sync. By the way, do you know if it's easy to setup conference calls the way there is with JitMeet / Hangout, but without a web browser, eg directly on a VoIP software? Can Jitsi do that? http://packages.qa.debian.org/r/reconserver.html is trivial to use and compiles cleanly on wheezy, proper backport coming soon. Asterisk has the MeetMe conferencing module If you don't need packages, there are additional options like FreeSWITCH conferencing. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5337fd7d.6040...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 30/03/14 12:57, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 11:04:31) I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging, VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie). This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs. Currently, Empathy is installed by default There are several reasons I am suggesting this and it is possible that Empathy could address some of them before the release freeze in November but we should be completely prepared to go with Jitsi if they continue to be the leaders in this area. Thanks for all your tremendous work in this field, Daniel. Is there some comparison available e.g. at our wiki? I am thinking something like https://wiki.debian.org/Groupware - I know there is https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications and a bunch of sub-pages but there I have located only install guides, no comparison, which I find essential for a discussion like you raise here. Done https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications/ClientSoftwareComparison Putting it on wiki instead of summarizing in an email, you encourage contribution from others (I happen to use Pidgin, for example, and might attempt to fill in the bits for that in a comparison chart if it existed, but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to put up a chart myself - you seem quite knowledgeable and might even have the data already. Please go ahead - I've just finished my own edits -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTOADVAAoJEOm1uwJp1aqDDkgP/3Gl14U0BgQAL2fyB2+5fmWe JiIrlWebyrSBVL3RMAxEv1jCcKW16CmJ3NeQEfEqzsi4JlbQwPDooHrL/4r+hsm9 eSgxofEAeCnmRQT8vQVi2ZsaR39bb5kIEjH8wJkF911Z57hKGNLAcrUwm2inOjbR wQbD/wsMyyDArM3K0oHi6I1awbNwLnLHivY+aXsy0p3Mvfcb6KXvi3DCQFjfJwlf XZreLTxui+qH6jZ63L5dITi/qDiGpe5MN5uzIDvrGU2exeAgig60Du1Ph0OclQkS N1T5sgt3MgK9uyQ7BIXdnphu1JdSB3D2+t6+6xczYd0XSWtez6WEDZ00L9pxPr4/ gNcUUIrmspWYQv7pVqq3Y2wMNb32/7wp6m4VK096QVA6EBleLTLsUCwiyG++Cx91 lLjQbkHuYbOVQBB5kYT2LMkFcBP0oBaJujnq62687r8eY5LJ+Ii3FMXkZR4cmfi6 2LofRow+/ru5OCZ4ML1OHwzfH85CC+xuBW6BQCK+Ab9H+/htMFym6Uvdim+c1M6l HTkN+Yf8ecneDBj6ZmWM8LCP8nIFeLVbuQrR4FQgApyjp+/2Yc3xYZWsrC4Ts6hq oJDZKHXd4gMYLOAjL+FMwTxwrrq7BIaltw3VxVVEKZo97MAjztXCJUpBlyDe4ysD 5gaFPDCBkX3aqTZ46uVy =rd6W -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/533800d6.60...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
+++ Thomas Goirand [2014-03-30 18:29 +0800]: On 03/30/2014 05:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: On 03/30/2014 05:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: JitMeet multi-party video conferencing solution[8] for WebRTC browsers You should remove the s at browsers. It only supports Chrome(ium). It's kind of the pother way round. AIUI Chromium supports multiple video streams, firefox only supports one. So jitmeet doesn't care at all what browser you use, but it does need to support various fairly new WebRTC features, inlcuding this multiple streams thing. I used meet.jit.si for the first time this week (for GSOC) and was very impressed. It's extremely convenient and 'just worked' for both audio and video on testing, which is better than hangouts as well as being free software. OK. I do have to get out a copy of chromium, which is a pain because firefox is my default browser, but that's a fairly minor irritation to get working videoconf. And I assume this annoyance will go away in due course when firefox acquires the necessary feature. It's certainly technology I recommend everyone to try. Is anyone packaging jitmeet itself BTW? By the way, do you know if it's easy to setup conference calls the way there is with JitMeet / Hangout, but without a web browser, eg directly on a VoIP software? Can Jitsi do that? Yes I'm interested in how you use WebRTC clients along with desktop clients. I assume it's possible... Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM http://wookware.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140330121846.gc10...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Quoting Wookey (2014-03-30 14:18:47) +++ Thomas Goirand [2014-03-30 18:29 +0800]: By the way, do you know if it's easy to setup conference calls the way there is with JitMeet / Hangout, but without a web browser, eg directly on a VoIP software? Can Jitsi do that? Yes I'm interested in how you use WebRTC clients along with desktop clients. I assume it's possible... Please use https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications as starting point. There is already link to a (mini-)HOWTO on some server setup, but if that does not adequately cover conference calls (I haven't tried yet myself) then consider extending that wiki page instead of sharing details here ;-) - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Hi, On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 11:49:08AM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: If you want GNOME to switch from Empathy to jitsi I think that would be a conversation that should be had with upstream, not with Debian. I doubt they would be interested in it due to the Java requirement though. Whichever desktop is in use, why does Debian have to accept what upstream recommends as an IM/VoIP client if we know something else is going to give users far greater chance of success? With respect to GNOME, you did not explain how well jitsi is blending into the GNOME3 desktop. Is it using GTK3, does it have a GNOME3 branding? Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140330134506.gq31...@raptor.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 30/03/14 15:45, Michael Banck wrote: Hi, On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 11:49:08AM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: If you want GNOME to switch from Empathy to jitsi I think that would be a conversation that should be had with upstream, not with Debian. I doubt they would be interested in it due to the Java requirement though. Whichever desktop is in use, why does Debian have to accept what upstream recommends as an IM/VoIP client if we know something else is going to give users far greater chance of success? With respect to GNOME, you did not explain how well jitsi is blending into the GNOME3 desktop. Is it using GTK3, does it have a GNOME3 branding? These are relevant considerations However, in my view, these questions are much higher on the list of priorities: - does it only talk to friends on the same LAN or anywhere? - is the communication secure (relative to alternatives)? - is it easy to set up? - does it empower other types of development (e.g. for people wanting to build WebRTC web applications) on a free platform? To put it another way, the most widely used softphones are not GNOME related either, millions of users are choosing them simply because they appear to work regularly and they are very easy to set up. Jitsi is probably the most compelling competitor for those proprietary products right now. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53382409.5010...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 03/30/2014 06:55 PM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Thomas Goirand: P.S: I don't really care which client is the default, because I find the concept of default app bad in itself, and I think users should be given the choice, and it isn't the role of a distribution to choose for its users. However, if we *have* to have a default, probably Jitsi is a good choice. Most new users don't know enough to choose. Excuse me to say it this way, but ... NO! I've read this too many times. You have absolutely no evidence of that. Apart maybe if you talk about your mum, which anyway wouldn't install Debian (or any other OS btw) herself. To me, it looks a lot more logic and probable that those who don't know just don't care about VoIP. Those who need a VoIP client will have enough knowledge to choose. My point above was only that I don't think it's a good idea to install so many stuff by default. It bloats the installer and make it difficult to fit on the 700 MB of the CD1. I very much prefer a more minimalistic approach. Empathy isn't only doing VoIP, it does lots of other (chat) protocol, and trying to compare it to Jitsi doesn't help IMO. I myself prefer pidgin + Ekiga than just Empathy (and I find Jitsi too heavy and slow), but that's just me. Ask 5 persons, and probably you will get 5 different answers (including Ekiga, Skype, Linphone, Mumble, you-name-it). So why even bothering installing anything by default? In the case of Empathy, my understanding was that the reason it was there, is because it's designed to integrate with Gnome. I don't think we can say the same thing with Jitsi (which integrates with nothing). I also find it a pain to add the Jitsi dependencies in the default setup: Depends: libjitsi-jni (= 2.4.4997-1), default-jre | java6-runtime, libunixsocket-java, libhttpcore-java, liblog4j1.2-java, libjmdns-java, libdnsjava-java, libmac-widgets-java, libfelix-main-java, libfelix-framework-java, libhttpclient-java, libhttpmime-java, libcommons-logging-java, libcommons-codec-java, libcommons-lang3-java, liblaf-widget-java, libdbus-java, libxpp3-java, libjzlib-java, libbcprov-java, libjna-java, libjgoodies-forms-java, libjson-simple-java, libjcalendar-java And yes, Java sux! :/ And it's going to take *a lot* of space on the CD1. This should therefore be discussed on the debian-cd list as well. I don't think that only the argument it's better because of this or that feature would be the only one (unfortunately). Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53382588.3090...@debian.org
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 03/30/2014 07:18 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: On 30/03/14 12:29, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 03/30/2014 05:04 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: JitMeet multi-party video conferencing solution[8] for WebRTC browsers You should remove the s at browsers. It only supports Chrome(ium). Most of my own WebRTC stuff started out only supporting Chromium but Firefox support was not hard to add as well. Chrome developers are also moving to be more Firefox-like (e.g. using DTLS-SRTP and dropping SDES) and that will force many projects to get in sync. I just hope JitMeet gets support for Firefox soon, and that we (also soon) be able to install it on any given server using Debian packages! http://packages.qa.debian.org/r/reconserver.html is trivial to use and compiles cleanly on wheezy, proper backport coming soon. Description-en: lightweight SIP conferencing service [... bla bla ...] It supports audio but not video or text. I would need both video, screen sharing text (mainly to cut/past URLs). Anything that doesn't have these features wouldn't work for what we need (eg: work video conferences with at least 10 persons). We don't care seeing all faces at once, but screen sharing is important (to be able to do demos, or show slides). Up to now, the only solution we've found acceptable is Mumble. Bonus: it can scale up to 50 participants (I never tested more people at once). No way you can do that with Hangout (with a Google enterprise account, the limit is 15). And as you know, Mumble does only voice. We would ALL be happy to switch to a free software solution. Asterisk has the MeetMe conferencing module If you don't need packages, there are additional options like FreeSWITCH conferencing. Same: I don't think we'd have video, screen sharing text chat with the above. Cheers, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/533827f4.2010...@debian.org
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On 30/03/14 16:09, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 03/30/2014 06:55 PM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Thomas Goirand: P.S: I don't really care which client is the default, because I find the concept of default app bad in itself, and I think users should be given the choice, and it isn't the role of a distribution to choose for its users. However, if we *have* to have a default, probably Jitsi is a good choice. Most new users don't know enough to choose. Excuse me to say it this way, but ... NO! Actually, many users will use what their friends are using, that's how they end up using solutions like WhatsApp that uses their phone's IMEI number as a password for XMPP. We should make it easy for people to choose - and Debian does a great job of that. But we should have a good default too. The default needs to work for the widest number of use cases. My point above was only that I don't think it's a good idea to install so many stuff by default. It bloats the installer and make it difficult to fit on the 700 MB of the CD1. I very much prefer a more minimalistic approach. That is a different issue. If it is too much for a single CD a) lets have it on DVD1 b) lets have some way to get stuff like this automatically if the user supplements CD1 with a network mirror c) or maybe we can have different CD sets, e.g. a set of disks for deskop / end user and a different set of disks for developer / sysadmin Empathy isn't only doing VoIP, it does lots of other (chat) protocol, and trying to compare it to Jitsi doesn't help IMO. I myself prefer Jitsi does IM/chat too, I just didn't emphasize that so mcuh. pidgin + Ekiga than just Empathy (and I find Jitsi too heavy and slow), but that's just me. Ask 5 persons, and probably you will get 5 different answers (including Ekiga, Skype, Linphone, Mumble, you-name-it). So why even bothering installing anything by default? In the case of Empathy, my understanding was that the reason it was there, is because it's designed to integrate with Gnome. I don't think we can say the same thing with Jitsi (which integrates with nothing). Quite simply, when talking about a communications tool, I feel the default option needs to be able to communicate with the widest number of people. Jitsi currently does that - despite all the legitimate concerns about disk space, GNOME UI, Java, whatever. It maximizes the number of people who can contact each other. By enabling the widest number of people to inter-operate, we help create the foundation for a world of free VoIP. Solutions like Empathy can grow into that at their own pace and the developers will have more motivation to fill those gaps (like DTLS-SRTP support) when there is a more active body of users to tap into. In any case, please feel free to add the other options into the wiki: https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications/ClientSoftwareComparison I also find it a pain to add the Jitsi dependencies in the default setup: Depends: libjitsi-jni (= 2.4.4997-1), default-jre | java6-runtime, libunixsocket-java, libhttpcore-java, liblog4j1.2-java, libjmdns-java, libdnsjava-java, libmac-widgets-java, libfelix-main-java, libfelix-framework-java, libhttpclient-java, libhttpmime-java, libcommons-logging-java, libcommons-codec-java, libcommons-lang3-java, liblaf-widget-java, libdbus-java, libxpp3-java, libjzlib-java, libbcprov-java, libjna-java, libjgoodies-forms-java, libjson-simple-java, libjcalendar-java And yes, Java sux! :/ And it's going to take *a lot* of space on the CD1. This should therefore be discussed on the debian-cd list as well. I don't think that only the argument it's better because of this or that feature would be the only one (unfortunately). I don't work exclusively with Java myself and I'm well aware of the benefits and disadvantages. Quite simply, it gives us a DFSG-compliant solution now. Thanks to Java, it brings that solution to people who are not even ready to change their whole OS and they can communicate with people who are 100% Debian/free-software users. Whatever you think about Java, it is free software and people are welcome to develop alternatives. Some of the building blocks are already out there in C or C++, like the reSIProcate project (which includes reTurn for TURN and reflow for RTP media now). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53382ab6.3030...@pocock.com.au
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On Sun, 2014-03-30 at 22:09 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 03/30/2014 06:55 PM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Thomas Goirand: P.S: I don't really care which client is the default, because I find the concept of default app bad in itself, and I think users should be given the choice, and it isn't the role of a distribution to choose for its users. However, if we *have* to have a default, probably Jitsi is a good choice. Most new users don't know enough to choose. Excuse me to say it this way, but ... NO! I've read this too many times. You have absolutely no evidence of that. Apart maybe if you talk about your mum, which anyway wouldn't install Argument from sexism? Debian (or any other OS btw) herself. To me, it looks a lot more logic and probable that those who don't know just don't care about VoIP. Those who need a VoIP client will have enough knowledge to choose. [...] And this sort of attitude is why Skype has won. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings If more than one person is responsible for a bug, no one is at fault. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 16:31:18) Jitsi does IM/chat too, I just didn't emphasize that so mcuh. Please add T in the relevant TAV fields at https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications/ClientSoftwareComparison - and while at it please also add info about JSCommunicator :-) Others: Please add what you know of relevant bits about your pet voip clients to above wiki page. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 30/03/14 16:54, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 16:31:18) Jitsi does IM/chat too, I just didn't emphasize that so mcuh. Please add T in the relevant TAV fields at https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications/ClientSoftwareComparison - and while at it please also add info about JSCommunicator :-) That is a trick question - many of the features of JSCommunicator are provided by the media stack in the browser or by JsSIP E.g. if a browser supports Opus, JSCommunicator will use it. If not, it doesn't actually know or care. Others: Please add what you know of relevant bits about your pet voip clients to above wiki page. - Jonas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTOFM/AAoJEOm1uwJp1aqD+DQP/1r5cOO8l9etBKfs79kcHgqb oGWgciDSTHyRRhdKdWzNsMQuxWioPABlwOl1jnuB5cOWO7C8dAUVyNw0oTnRAwXs Sf3lze9Wzc/OwzLnsqAjrORh0av43xkqAnJBWNYa2elpSg5goMLS1DMmsN4OKFma sW4Fj0jaJzX7B4fkQ48qPhvX8IIrakxtw6LGa2mA83EasQGZreLe2fcRfcAxSMrk da9CpeNc/7YPWLLhbBPbOdCLZp6iw7NyIWlIOwM7z1fW3BeN9hTsMgVQm4N+pimC 3/2BeGoU9wome6hUH3ODg8qDRIBufO+QhxWW5XPuprim8amVRFwpamkaMnxbuSNl IERW9ITygUyHJfs1ZM/x0p4YTOBleBLNUE1B2nO6OLUg2uOog6AGJmSwMlLzVbbE DYCEJrk1q6ZmJjeDdfgZneMZ3xV3zrf+vio0l4UsRdiRHq02L19CLZWBlP83Cj5o LAL05LBVRIxuXZdTgvYXodzCLqQQTswr8ZCJMTxHI8Hg991lmwO1hbnhhMqyrb3x 78Ukt/82RxXplcIuRn2Tk4MgoQXNZJ5QBeDnXbbyIAIw8fsI0e2OGb3V4mu83f8T WX1rcfXdIoxDA4bIW0YfGm3Y1cDrug3naSlZCRdlKXqp3nuJhSE/cO6l52tySThr lAy2E04AU5xJgqS/i4Xh =7lGK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5338533f.1070...@pocock.pro
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 07:24:15PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 30/03/14 16:54, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 16:31:18) Jitsi does IM/chat too, I just didn't emphasize that so mcuh. Please add T in the relevant TAV fields at https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications/ClientSoftwareComparison - and while at it please also add info about JSCommunicator :-) That is a trick question - many of the features of JSCommunicator are provided by the media stack in the browser or by JsSIP E.g. if a browser supports Opus, JSCommunicator will use it. If not, it doesn't actually know or care. So this page needs some entries for browsers? -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140330171503.gp16...@lemon.cohens.org.il
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
* Ben Hutchings b...@decadent.org.uk, 2014-03-30, 15:33: Most new users don't know enough to choose. Excuse me to say it this way, but ... NO! I've read this too many times. You have absolutely no evidence of that. Apart maybe if you talk about your mum, which anyway wouldn't install Argument from sexism? Or a maternal insult. Nah, probably neither. -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140330180240.ga7...@jwilk.net
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 19:24:15) On 30/03/14 16:54, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 16:31:18) Jitsi does IM/chat too, I just didn't emphasize that so mcuh. Please add T in the relevant TAV fields at https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications/ClientSoftwareComparison - and while at it please also add info about JSCommunicator :-) That is a trick question - many of the features of JSCommunicator are provided by the media stack in the browser or by JsSIP E.g. if a browser supports Opus, JSCommunicator will use it. If not, it doesn't actually know or care. Desktop clients also use underlying stacks (e.g. libpurple) for some of their work - similar to JSCommunicator relying on JsSIP. If JSCommunicator sends the proper instructions to browsers to use (or favor) Opus and similar for other features, then to me that seems similar to desktop clients expecting the desktop to have some audio output configured for audio and and have adequately powerful graphics driver working with X11 for video. And a keyboard attached for text :-) - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
Quoting Tzafrir Cohen (2014-03-30 19:15:04) On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 07:24:15PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: On 30/03/14 16:54, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 16:31:18) Jitsi does IM/chat too, I just didn't emphasize that so mcuh. Please add T in the relevant TAV fields at https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications/ClientSoftwareComparison - and while at it please also add info about JSCommunicator :-) That is a trick question - many of the features of JSCommunicator are provided by the media stack in the browser or by JsSIP E.g. if a browser supports Opus, JSCommunicator will use it. If not, it doesn't actually know or care. So this page needs some entries for browsers? Please don't: Let's keep it a two-dimensional matrix. Track browser features in a separate wiki page if you find that relevant (and, for comparison, one on how well desktop environments integrates a volume control as part of their GUI, and one on which integrated computers has graphics drivers with XVIDEO supported X11 drivers, etc.). - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 30/03/14 20:53, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Tzafrir Cohen (2014-03-30 19:15:04) On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 07:24:15PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: On 30/03/14 16:54, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Daniel Pocock (2014-03-30 16:31:18) Jitsi does IM/chat too, I just didn't emphasize that so mcuh. Please add T in the relevant TAV fields at https://wiki.debian.org/UnifiedCommunications/ClientSoftwareComparison - - and while at it please also add info about JSCommunicator :-) That is a trick question - many of the features of JSCommunicator are provided by the media stack in the browser or by JsSIP E.g. if a browser supports Opus, JSCommunicator will use it. If not, it doesn't actually know or care. So this page needs some entries for browsers? Please don't: Let's keep it a two-dimensional matrix. Track browser features in a separate wiki page if you find that relevant (and, for comparison, one on how well desktop environments integrates a volume control as part of their GUI, and one on which integrated computers has graphics drivers with XVIDEO supported X11 drivers, etc.). To maintain the correct focus here, it is probably more relevant to track browser features from the WebRTC specs rather than all browser features in general. Some things are standard as per the spec and all browsers implement them (e.g. the G.711 codec, AVPF, ICE) There has been variation in the SRTP style and the video codecs but that will hopefully converge. All of this could be summarised by a line in the table for WebRTC spec rather than one line per browser. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTOGl6AAoJEOm1uwJp1aqDWKsP/3K3FiS01/1ibU0DTSLeNxVk /6HW/pFmnykQlWwg25Q3TBPaEBlhTqjiidpMTQ1zev50UzbNZt1nmWTlmwWb0Eg2 crOvjErfm4of+pdQeqq7r+bAVOk8lX80QYxUveTzPDOuyB7QJgmRw5PzI7JaoUxc rLKDaqJLnhgj16UJJfdg7ECgLGxFVYxudb82oQIXHfDAoiWY0QpzABge/uvO9r10 8Y/IgPkrBEcTmZO6Gfdu1P0cE2P7+UZ01CnV10MTJyqv1txgPQeKpkLwxMwK8NVw O03jLiVNLjfyKCr5HHbtPyXjZSYWlrBSUpwxEXefwjF+mCErGnolQjuIjaP7puJa mSOjlS5DwUPSmNkinydwCY3/0Ho6HPf5BE0esG1iddcN1b4yDnsKm7s//NJUviad sVCS9uDUiw+mx53LxSowWtwoIfcpEbWR7lMaBnnubdbBuFHdfr3oGKaC+uHuwbb7 4amXJUy+i7Ch18RoKR3zrO6SAuYwmjjIx1/Xzk7czZqAXVr3ZqyPUe2+1cxJl1My 7hfUuvXgJkG3A6BgDMwMkRRnIm1jCCi3R0VAH2jUQyd6aG6npO0ODOFvTGTl+zx1 KSgvcfIuaL4lQjXzrWutpPPwP2golnknuX2LkaCZG4TghZJ22epwq3z6qY9uC2Bv G3Q13Ae9pG/UlYwvw0qP =aG2+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5338697a.2010...@pocock.pro
The role of Debian in presenting defaults (was: default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie)
Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org writes: On 03/30/2014 06:55 PM, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Thomas Goirand: P.S: […] I find the concept of default app bad in itself, and I think users should be given the choice, and it isn't the role of a distribution to choose for its users. Most new users don't know enough to choose. Excuse me to say it this way, but ... NO! I've read this too many times. You have absolutely no evidence of that. He doesn't need evidence for the null hypothesis. Most *people* new to any field have not enough information to choose. So it's the default assumption to say that most newcomers to a field do not have enough information in that field to choose. If you're saying that's false in the specific case of application software, what evidence do you have for that assertion? There is much observational evidence that presenting expert-selected defaults *is* helpful for most recipients; this is the “default effect” in psychology. The Wikipedia page has useful information and many links URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_effect_%28psychology%29. Based on that body of evidence, it *is* the role of an OS vendor to choose sensible defaults for the recipient. There's no good reason to think Debian is an exception to this. My point above was only that I don't think it's a good idea to install so many stuff by default. That's a different statement, which should be separated from discussions of the role of the OS vendor in presenting defaults to the user. -- \ “Don't worry about what anybody else is going to do. The best | `\ way to predict the future is to invent it.” —Alan Kay | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/85mwg7mfqf.fsf...@benfinney.id.au
Re: [jitsi-users] default messaging/VoIP client for Debian 8/Jessie
On behalf of the community, thanks for the suggesting this Daniel! We are currently in the process of preparing deb packages for Jitsi Videobridge and our new conferencing app too, so maybe these would also help Debian's users to get better Free communication. --sent from my mobile On 30 Mar 2014 11:44 AM, Daniel Pocock dan...@pocock.pro wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 I'd like to propose that Jitsi be considered as the default messaging, VoIP and webcam client for the next major Debian release (jessie). This would mean it is installed by default in a desktop install and it is the default handler for sip: and xmpp: URIs. Currently, Empathy is installed by default There are several reasons I am suggesting this and it is possible that Empathy could address some of them before the release freeze in November but we should be completely prepared to go with Jitsi if they continue to be the leaders in this area. * Google dependency: Empathy is hard-coded[1] to use Google media relay (TURN) servers for NAT traversal. It can't be configured to use a TURN server on a Debian server, even though we have three TURN servers packaged for our users. This means that when Google shifts the goal posts (as they already did, ditching true XMPP to promote Google hangouts[2]) or when they have a service outage[3] then Debian's users are left high and dry. There are also privacy concerns, Google themselves report a 120% increase in the amount of data they officially and knowingly give to their government[4]. Jitsi supports any user-specified TURN server for XMPP and they plan to support TURN for SIP too. * Convenient NAPTR discovery. Empathy does not autoconfigure itself with services (such as Debian.org's own SIP proxy) that have NAPTR records in DNS[5]. With Jitsi, this just works. * WebRTC integration (calling from browsers to Jitsi desktop). This depends on new media stream features (e.g. DTLS-SRTP and AVPF) that are not supported in Empathy yet[6]. * ZRTP - peer to peer encryption, like PGP for VoIP. Once again, it has been in Jitsi for ages but is not in Empathy[7] * Upstream. Both Empathy and Jitsi upstreams are very good developers. Jitsi seem to have an edge though. Just look at how quickly they turned out the JitMeet multi-party video conferencing solution[8] for WebRTC browsers - it is a phenomenal achievement and delivered in good time to help free software gain traction in the emerging WebRTC space before any vested interests try to monopolize the technology. The whole real-time communications (RTC) space is very important for free software in general. If it fails to work conveniently and reliably, the peer pressure of family and friends pull people back into dangerous non-free solutions. Some of these solutions are a threat to the whole concept of free software on mainstream desktops. With all the recent attention on communications privacy, there has never been a better time for Debian to try and fill this gap with a solution like Jitsi on the front-end and the various free SIP/XMPP/TURN servers in the back-end. To put it simply, the Jitsi team are blazing a trail in this area and a Debian initiative to install Jitsi on every desktop will give them more momentum and ensure more people can talk to each other in line with our agreed definition of freedom. 1. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=704234 2. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/05/google-abandons-open-standards-instant-messaging 3. http://www.cnet.com/news/outage-hits-google-talk-hangouts/ 4. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26786593 5. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=736149#10 6. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/telepathy/2012-June/006122.html 7. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=589778 8. https://jitsi.org/Projects/JitMeet -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTN94bAAoJEOm1uwJp1aqDRkgP/0jKZ2GfrIIxTy70p8b5PFDo e9KKTkDTEINpwAdeyP2BpX5BLTEtuzgRZh+AQi7HZHbPAfCq8Cf24FjJfQyY0AgC jDpzuX05ahNExPbpWOW4OGwinJ4S3kaPG5/o/IQC66y9tUdH0Lrh8AIvmvEgIJ9j K0Nb669heMCdrn77ihbk9MtJlGvCE1KVOnrg+SrQLSEE1HsXk8iTXlyoGfE2T/ho 24PxrKwhnjFoojIe0c2f/cMTMOL3prHyndYZB/Q86AiKExCow+6WtSwzb3po153i USHFS/e+lA1+GquJXYiJq1FMUB+HiPaLer241yodqr7R5mqSD4igiF7/oQzywYId OcxjqaLZVGxcqd5s+hmv2vCf3FXC21uDeBULZYP6TulELPGK1i6EJPpg0JqiWZbD rE8Zs1a9W0zLOamc6jpMMx/rMC1Pml00Y69ek/c1uXW3YfxaEsiyV4cv+i99XU5B hkkmQf5DbV+P3nQqblIkNPTydWlN/spsaLitWQsfr0cG3l4ZH+zCHKoNVl87g7Sy CCv8FsnyhJy2wOdB//1OreDRmNK28UWwv+GM3Kf2/BI9oylbBmGbN8q3luy8KlQd NHAledDQ0c2xEnCK0VF5NtOCQyY+cQriPcTUt1MSpq+m2mnqYj40VqBiDJITf/zz xF+ESMftdl5n0cqmMNQJ =UwwC -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ users mailing list us...@jitsi.org Unsubscribe
