Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
On Sun 05 Aug 2012 04:43:58 Christian PERRIER escribió: [snip] So, who will be hurt by dropping support for install with one CD? In theory, those people lost somewhere in a world of bad connectivity, where installs cannot really rely on a working network (I still remember a Debian installation workshop that I tried running during the rainy season in India..with power, and network, failing every now and then). Those will do such installs with lend over, or copied, DVDs and, anyway, there is nearly no way we can get their advice about the pain caused by dropping 650MB CD images. That's very probably a very tiny fraction of our users and, here, we probably can't be universal. For whatI've seen, people who can get a CD image can also get a DVD image for installations without network. And even here in argentina you can't buy a CD- ROM-only player since (at very least) a couple of years. So, I'd vote for dropping these 650MB images. By keeping them, we hurt ourselves much more than we're doing any good. My vote goes there too. As Joss says, 1GB images seem to be the best choice (unless there would be great benefit in jumping to 2GB images immediately). Well, 2GB flash drives seems to be the most common minimum size for what I know. Kinds regards, Lisandro. -- 14: Para acceder y navegar en internet * Debe tener conexion a Internet Damian Nadales http://mx.grulic.org.ar/lurker/message/20080307.141449.a70fb2fc.es.html Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer http://perezmeyer.com.ar/ http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
Quoting Josselin Mouette (j...@debian.org): Well, 1 GB would be enough to hold a standard desktop installation, while 650 MB is not. That makes a difference. It will be hard to know whether dropping support for real CD installs does hurt some users or not, anyway. Those who will speak, in -devel or -boot, will be DDs, DMs, or regular Debian contributors. I really fail to see *any* of these running into a problem because they can't install Debian with a CD (a physical CD). So, who will be hurt by dropping support for install with one CD? In theory, those people lost somewhere in a world of bad connectivity, where installs cannot really rely on a working network (I still remember a Debian installation workshop that I tried running during the rainy season in India..with power, and network, failing every now and then). Those will do such installs with lend over, or copied, DVDs and, anyway, there is nearly no way we can get their advice about the pain caused by dropping 650MB CD images. That's very probably a very tiny fraction of our users and, here, we probably can't be universal. So, I'd vote for dropping these 650MB images. By keeping them, we hurt ourselves much more than we're doing any good. As Joss says, 1GB images seem to be the best choice (unless there would be great benefit in jumping to 2GB images immediately). signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
Le samedi 04 août 2012 à 00:24 +0200, Michael Biebl a écrit : I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size (perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that. That sounds like an interesting idea. Even if a default DVD-RW would provide more space, having only 1 GB instead of 4.4 GB to download makes a difference. 2.0 GB would even probably be enough to fit GNOME and KDE (and maybe other alternatives) on that image. AFAIK debian-cd now produces 1 GiB, 2 GiB and 4 GiB images for use with USB sticks. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1344071350.4874.3.camel@tomoe
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
Le vendredi 03 août 2012 à 23:28 +0200, Michael Biebl a écrit : And in wheezy+1(or 2,...), when XFCE has outgrown CD1, we switch to E17, or whatever the tasksel maintainers prefer at that time. Sounds like a great plan to base our default desktop on the size of a CD or the mood of a single maintainer and switch arbitrarily between releases. Since lenny, our default installation has always been about the mood of a single maintainer. This is for example why we still don’t have tmpfs by default. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1344071454.4874.4.camel@tomoe
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org (04/08/2012): This is for example why we still don’t have tmpfs by default. Your example is wrong. On a freshly-installed system: tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=161324k) Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 12:18:45PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org (04/08/2012): This is for example why we still don’t have tmpfs by default. Your example is wrong. On a freshly-installed system: tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=161324k) This is only until sysvinit migrates to testing though. We did (regrettably, IMO) change back the default. Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' schroot and sbuild http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools `-GPG Public Key F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120804111008.gs25...@codelibre.net
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
Joss wrote: Le samedi 04 août 2012 à 00:24 +0200, Michael Biebl a écrit : I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size (perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that. That sounds like an interesting idea. Even if a default DVD-RW would provide more space, having only 1 GB instead of 4.4 GB to download makes a difference. 2.0 GB would even probably be enough to fit GNOME and KDE (and maybe other alternatives) on that image. AFAIK debian-cd now produces 1 GiB, 2 GiB and 4 GiB images for use with USB sticks. We don't *yet*. The code is there (as mentioned in the DebConf BoF), but I've not yet seen a consensus over exactly what people want. Currently, I'm thinking an extra 2GB image would be useful. We *do* already have a 4GB image (the first DVD image is deliberately down-sized to 4GB) and CD#1 is close-ish to 1GB. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com Google-bait: http://www.debian.org/CD/free-linux-cd Debian does NOT ship free CDs. Please do NOT contact the mailing lists asking us to send them to you. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1sxf0m-0005ig...@mail.einval.com
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
Le samedi 04 août 2012 à 15:06 +0100, Steve McIntyre a écrit : We don't *yet*. The code is there (as mentioned in the DebConf BoF), but I've not yet seen a consensus over exactly what people want. Currently, I'm thinking an extra 2GB image would be useful. We *do* already have a 4GB image (the first DVD image is deliberately down-sized to 4GB) and CD#1 is close-ish to 1GB. Well, 1 GB would be enough to hold a standard desktop installation, while 650 MB is not. That makes a difference. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1344104259.4874.8.camel@tomoe
tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce (was: How to proceed with switching packages on first CDs to xz?)
Hello, Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org (03/08/2012): I was wondering how to proceed with switching packages on the first CDs to use xz compression. I have prepared a list of binary packages which would benefit the most from switching, see [1]. or we could just do nothing but reviewing the following tasksel change by Joey Hess [1], since apparently we have well-defined procedures for that: | commit 2a962cc65cdba010177f27e8824ba10d9a799a08 | Author: Joey Hess j...@kitenet.net | Date: Sat Jul 28 12:21:22 2012 -0400 | | switch default desktop task to xfce | | This ensures that the desktop will fit on CD#1, which gnome currently does not. | | There may be other reasons to prefer xfce as the default as well, but that | is a complex and subjective topic. Unfortunatly, Debian does not have a | well-defined procedure for making such choices, though it certianly has | well-defined procedures for reviewing them. So, I've decided to be bold, | and continue the tradition of making an arbitrary desktop selection for | Debian in tasksel. 1. http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commit;h=2a962cc65cdba010177f27e8824ba10d9a799a08 Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce (was: How to proceed with switching packages on first CDs to xz?)
Hi, Cyril Brulebois k...@debian.org writes: Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org (03/08/2012): I was wondering how to proceed with switching packages on the first CDs to use xz compression. I have prepared a list of binary packages which would benefit the most from switching, see [1]. or we could just do nothing but reviewing the following tasksel change by Joey Hess [1], since apparently we have well-defined procedures for that: [...] 1. http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commit;h=2a962cc65cdba010177f27e8824ba10d9a799a08 It would still be useful for the other first CDs. Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87k3xf1yol@deep-thought.43-1.org
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
On 03.08.2012 21:06, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Hello, Ansgar Burchardt ans...@debian.org (03/08/2012): I was wondering how to proceed with switching packages on the first CDs to use xz compression. I have prepared a list of binary packages which would benefit the most from switching, see [1]. or we could just do nothing but reviewing the following tasksel change by Joey Hess [1], since apparently we have well-defined procedures for that: | commit 2a962cc65cdba010177f27e8824ba10d9a799a08 | Author: Joey Hess j...@kitenet.net | Date: Sat Jul 28 12:21:22 2012 -0400 | | switch default desktop task to xfce | | This ensures that the desktop will fit on CD#1, which gnome currently does not. | | There may be other reasons to prefer xfce as the default as well, but that | is a complex and subjective topic. Unfortunatly, Debian does not have a | well-defined procedure for making such choices, though it certianly has | well-defined procedures for reviewing them. So, I've decided to be bold, | and continue the tradition of making an arbitrary desktop selection for | Debian in tasksel. And in wheezy+1(or 2,...), when XFCE has outgrown CD1, we switch to E17, or whatever the tasksel maintainers prefer at that time. Sounds like a great plan to base our default desktop on the size of a CD or the mood of a single maintainer and switch arbitrarily between releases. Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install image and a DVD image for desktop installations. Michael -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
Hi, On 03.08.2012 23:28, Michael Biebl wrote: Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install image and a DVD image for desktop installations. Is there any serious survey how established DVD drives (and writers) are these days? CD images might be obsolete some day, but we should be sure (virtually) nobody notices once we drop it. -- with kind regards, Arno Töll IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Arno Töll a...@debian.org wrote: Hi, On 03.08.2012 23:28, Michael Biebl wrote: Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install image and a DVD image for desktop installations. Is there any serious survey how established DVD drives (and writers) are these days? CD images might be obsolete some day, but we should be sure (virtually) nobody notices once we drop it. I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size (perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that. -mz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caolfk3u2er-v1xcyuzptmjskn_amiikcpa_kmgbfjnbp4mf...@mail.gmail.com
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
On 04.08.2012 00:03, Matt Zagrabelny wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Arno Töll a...@debian.org wrote: Hi, On 03.08.2012 23:28, Michael Biebl wrote: Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install image and a DVD image for desktop installations. Is there any serious survey how established DVD drives (and writers) are these days? CD images might be obsolete some day, but we should be sure (virtually) nobody notices once we drop it. Maybe this wasn't entirely obvious. I didn't say to drop CD images completely. Just that CD1 is no longer sufficient to provide a full desktop environment installation and instead promote an alternative installation image for desktop installations. I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size (perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that. That sounds like an interesting idea. Even if a default DVD-RW would provide more space, having only 1 GB instead of 4.4 GB to download makes a difference. 2.0 GB would even probably be enough to fit GNOME and KDE (and maybe other alternatives) on that image. Michael -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
On 03/08/2012 23:24, Michael Biebl wrote: On 04.08.2012 00:03, Matt Zagrabelny wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Arno Töll a...@debian.org wrote: Hi, On 03.08.2012 23:28, Michael Biebl wrote: Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install image and a DVD image for desktop installations. Is there any serious survey how established DVD drives (and writers) are these days? CD images might be obsolete some day, but we should be sure (virtually) nobody notices once we drop it. Maybe this wasn't entirely obvious. I didn't say to drop CD images completely. Just that CD1 is no longer sufficient to provide a full desktop environment installation and instead promote an alternative installation image for desktop installations. I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size (perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that. That sounds like an interesting idea. Even if a default DVD-RW would provide more space, having only 1 GB instead of 4.4 GB to download makes a difference. 2.0 GB would even probably be enough to fit GNOME and KDE (and maybe other alternatives) on that image. Michael Also, with the package survey, could you just work out what packages tend to be downloaded together and use that to make specialised CDs for a purpose, instead of numbered CDs. Jamie -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/501c5736.3040...@jatos.co.uk
Re: tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
IMHO, Package downloader for *offline* installation instead of full-desktop-featured CD images. And I think it could be good to build their own installation images using jigsaw (or downloads to their own hard drive) before offline installation. It also promotes the use of on-line installation and decrease the number of use-once-then-throw-away optical media. For default desktop, is it OK to separate into different desktop systems? Debian should give people choice for their taste instead of a default option. -- Yao Wei -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAJkNRTHZ9dBcMgG=9xe1666j-bhshi7ijgsn10ygdb422ep...@mail.gmail.com
