Re: Collaborative decision making with Loomio
On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 03:23:08PM +0200, Philipp Kern wrote: > Yup, but to note: Consensus-driven arguments can only go so far and scale > poorly with more people. Ultimately contentious issues need to be voted on, > otherwise you can be held hostage by a single person or small vocal group. people forget the past: Debian is about _rough_ consensus and working code. rough consensus can mean some people disagree... -- cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Collaborative decision making with Loomio
On 2018-07-27 10:46, Joerg Jaspert wrote: On 15111 March 1977, Dmitry Smirnov wrote: Loomio [1] is a powerful tool to organize decision making. We have a long standing RFP [2] for Loomio and I hope that with help of Ruby team it can be packaged without too much effort. It is not the tool here that is the problem. It is the people involved that are. No matter being on a mailing list or loomio or whatevermagictool, as long as people are unwilling to accept the other sides and willing to find consensus, you can throw tools around as much as you want. You wont get anywhere. Or simply put: You can't solve a social problem using technical means. Yup, but to note: Consensus-driven arguments can only go so far and scale poorly with more people. Ultimately contentious issues need to be voted on, otherwise you can be held hostage by a single person or small vocal group. Of course in Debian that mechanism is called GR or appealing to the tech-ctte and letting them vote (and then maybe another GR, hah). Kind regards Philipp Kern
Re: Collaborative decision making with Loomio
On 15111 March 1977, Dmitry Smirnov wrote: >> You can't solve a social problem using technical means. > I do not share your skepticism. We can benefit from imposing some structure > and there is nothing wrong about exploring options to _improve_ the process > while not necessarily aiming at solving social problem. What problem by the > way? There is no benefit if we split up discussions to just another medium. Unless you propose to close the mailinglist, all that happens is that there is one more place to rehash the same arguments all over. > Saying "people are the problem" is too harsh as you are basically giving up > already, if not worse. No its not. Its reality. > Disagreements are good. In unhealthy environment there may be no > disagreements because either nobody have opinions to contribute or no guts to > speak up. Disagreements allow to explore problems from many sides and produce > deeper understanding. Disagreements are good. As long as all sides are able *and* willing to find a consensus somewhere in the middle. And stop discussion. > I'd say let's try the tool and see if it works for us. In process of > trying we may find some inspirations regardless of the outcome. Feel free to setup something. Maybe it even gets us something. *I* doubt it. -- bye, Joerg
Re: Collaborative decision making with Loomio
On Friday, 27 July 2018 6:46:33 PM AEST Joerg Jaspert wrote: > You can't solve a social problem using technical means. I do not share your skepticism. We can benefit from imposing some structure and there is nothing wrong about exploring options to _improve_ the process while not necessarily aiming at solving social problem. What problem by the way? Saying "people are the problem" is too harsh as you are basically giving up already, if not worse. Disagreements are good. In unhealthy environment there may be no disagreements because either nobody have opinions to contribute or no guts to speak up. Disagreements allow to explore problems from many sides and produce deeper understanding. I'd say let's try the tool and see if it works for us. In process of trying we may find some inspirations regardless of the outcome. -- Regards, Dmitry Smirnov. --- Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men. -- George S. Patton signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Collaborative decision making with Loomio
On 15111 March 1977, Dmitry Smirnov wrote: > Loomio [1] is a powerful tool to organize decision making. We have a long > standing RFP [2] for Loomio and I hope that with help of Ruby team it can be > packaged without too much effort. It is not the tool here that is the problem. It is the people involved that are. No matter being on a mailing list or loomio or whatevermagictool, as long as people are unwilling to accept the other sides and willing to find consensus, you can throw tools around as much as you want. You wont get anywhere. Or simply put: You can't solve a social problem using technical means. -- bye, Joerg
Collaborative decision making with Loomio
Here in Debian we often need to coordinate decision making between multiple people. Mail list is not a proper instrument to facilitate that task as it is difficult to find out where things stand and who is winning the argument. Loomio [1] is a powerful tool to organize decision making. We have a long standing RFP [2] for Loomio and I hope that with help of Ruby team it can be packaged without too much effort. Upstream have a hosted instance that anyone can try right away although I believe we should have our own if we are serious about using Loomio. Thoughts? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loomio [2]: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=756319 -- All the best, Dmitry Smirnov. --- It is no use saying, 'We are doing our best.' You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary. -- Winston Churchill signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
