Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Bálint Réczey]

Hi Sean,

2016-11-28 23:23 GMT+01:00 Sean Whitton :
> Hello Bálint,
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 06:33:34PM +0100, Bálint Réczey wrote:
>> It is not a subtree clone, but the result is practically the same
>
> It wouldn't permit making new commits, though.

This is true, those who don't have good access can't make new commits
to the remote repository by pushing changes, but they can make the
"subtree clone" a local repository and send the patches to the others
for review.

They could also push their changes by creating a full clone on
git.debian.org/home/.../
and integrating their patches created using the "subtree clone" there.

Cheers,
Balint

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Sean Whitton]

Hello Bálint,

On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 06:33:34PM +0100, Bálint Réczey wrote:
> It is not a subtree clone, but the result is practically the same 

It wouldn't permit making new commits, though.

-- 
Sean Whitton


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Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Bálint Réczey]

Hi,

2016-11-24 12:20 GMT+01:00 Jonas Smedegaard :
> Quoting Holger Levsen (2016-11-24 10:43:40)
>> As some people fear the size of the git repo, I've done a test:
>>
>> cloning took 5-6min (granted over a fast network connection) and requires
>> 628mb of diskspace in the end.
>>
>> however, cloning using --depth 1 did not work :(
>>
>> $ git clone --depth 1 https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/webwml/webwml2git.git
>> Cloning into 'webwml2git'...
>> fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
>> fatal: protocol error: bad pack header
>>
>> however if I clone locally (well using file://…) with --depth 1 I can
>> see that it needs 454mb diskspace.
>>
>> Not too bad IMO.
>
> Interesting data points.
>
> Can you get these related data points too? - relevant for those with
> limited internet bandwidth (as is the case for some translators):
>
>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for initial full git clone
>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for shallow git clone
>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for CVS clone
>   * disk space used for CVS clone

I have just learned a new trick which would help people with limited bandwidth.

It is not a subtree clone, but the result is practically the same and
the downloaded data is minimal:
$ git archive --remote=ssh://git.debian.org/git/collab-maint/ffmpeg.git
master debian/ | tar xvf -

It does not work with GitHub, but does perfectly with git.debian.org.

Cheers,
Balint

Credit: http://stackoverflow.com/a/25771130

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Ian Jackson]

Jonas Smedegaard writes ("Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website"):
> Quoting Holger Levsen (2016-11-24 10:43:40)
> > $ git clone --depth 1 https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/webwml/webwml2git.git
> > Cloning into 'webwml2git'...
> > fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
> > fatal: protocol error: bad pack header

I get this too.

> Can you get these related data points too? - relevant for those with 
> limited internet bandwidth (as is the case for some translators):
> 
>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for initial full git clone

231658055 bytes ie 220 Mby, via HTTPS.  [1]
227047513 bytes ie 216 Mby, via SSH.  [1a]

>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for shallow git clone

75485138 bytes ie 71 Mby, via SSH.  [1a] with --depth 1 added

>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for CVS clone

471085959 bytes ie 449 Mby.  [2]

Note however that with CVS it is possible to clone only subtrees.
That makes a huge difference for many use cases.

For example, cvs co only webml/english/devel:

1793649 bytes ie 1.71 Mby.  [2] with cvs clone ... webwml/english/devel

>   * disk space used for CVS clone

501 Mby.

Thanks,
Ian.


[1]
  rm -rf t.* t webwml2git; strace -ffot git clone 
https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/webwml/webwml2git.git
  grep connect t.* |less
  cat t.* |perl -ne 'next unless m/^recv\(5,/; next if m/ = -1 EAGAIN [^=]+$/; 
die "$_ ?" unless m/ = (\d+)$/; $total+=$1; END { print $total,"\n" }' 

[1a]
  rm -rf t.* t webwml2git2; strace -ffot git clone 
mariner:/volatile/iwj/d/webwml2git webwml2git2
  grep connect t.* |less
  cat t.* |perl -ne 'next unless m/^read\(3,/; next if m/ = -1 EAGAIN [^=]+$/; 
die "$_ ?" unless m/ = (\d+)$/; $total+=$1; END { print $total,"\n" }'

[2]
  rm -rf t t.* webwml; strace -ffot cvs -d cvs.debian.org:/cvs/webwml co webwml
  grep connect t.* |less
  cat t.* |perl -ne 'next unless m/^read\(3,/; next if m/ = -1 EAGAIN [^=]+$/; 
die "$_ ?" unless m/ = (\d+)$/; $total+=$1; END { print $total,"\n" }'


-- 
Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>   These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Holger Levsen]

On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 12:20:35PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Interesting data points.

thanks.

> Can you get these related data points too?

I dont, sorry, etoobusy.

> - relevant for those with 
> limited internet bandwidth (as is the case for some translators):
> 
>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for initial full git clone
>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for shallow git clone
>   * amount of data transfered over the wire for CVS clone
>   * disk space used for CVS clone
> 
> Should be possible to get the git data by cloning from yourself via 
> localhost: URL (to ensure that git does not use hardlink optimixations).


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Holger Levsen (2016-11-24 10:43:40)
> As some people fear the size of the git repo, I've done a test:
> 
> cloning took 5-6min (granted over a fast network connection) and requires
> 628mb of diskspace in the end.
> 
> however, cloning using --depth 1 did not work :(
> 
> $ git clone --depth 1 https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/webwml/webwml2git.git
> Cloning into 'webwml2git'...
> fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
> fatal: protocol error: bad pack header
> 
> however if I clone locally (well using file://…) with --depth 1 I can
> see that it needs 454mb diskspace.
> 
> Not too bad IMO.

Interesting data points.

Can you get these related data points too? - relevant for those with 
limited internet bandwidth (as is the case for some translators):

  * amount of data transfered over the wire for initial full git clone
  * amount of data transfered over the wire for shallow git clone
  * amount of data transfered over the wire for CVS clone
  * disk space used for CVS clone

Should be possible to get the git data by cloning from yourself via 
localhost: URL (to ensure that git does not use hardlink optimixations).


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Laura,

thanks *a lot* for leading this migration! Much much appreciated!

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:21:08PM +0100, Laura Arjona Reina wrote:
> I have setup this git repo:
> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/webwml/webwml2git.git
> for me and the people interested to work on the migration.
 
wow, awesome!

As some people fear the size of the git repo, I've done a test:

cloning took 5-6min (granted over a fast network connection) and requires
628mb of diskspace in the end.

however, cloning using --depth 1 did not work :(

$ git clone --depth 1 https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/webwml/webwml2git.git
Cloning into 'webwml2git'...
fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
fatal: protocol error: bad pack header

however if I clone locally (well using file://…) with --depth 1 I can
see that it needs 454mb diskspace.

Not too bad IMO.

> My plan is update the master branch daily with the new cvs commits, and
> use branches to work on the approaches mentioned in the wiki page
> https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteGitTransition
> 
> The branches include a "cvs-revisions" file with the results of the
> git-cvsimport (it will be updated daily, too), that may be useful.
> 
> You can find more details in the bug report (#845297):
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=845297

very very cool!

> People interested in working on the migration to git, or tracking what's
> happening with it from now on, *please* subscribe to the bug and the
> wiki page, and use them to send/write your ideas, patches, etc.

done.

> Note that I have no Perl scripts, very few bash scripts, and I just
> learned about po4a yesterday, so don't think that I can do the migration
> alone! I'll try to ease the work of anybody wanting to work, though, and
> gather all the important info in the bug repo, and wiki page.

hehe, very very nice.

and just as a side anecdote… when I started the DebConf videoteam back in
2005, I had no clue about video nor audio whatsoever… motivation can take
one a long way! enjoy your journey! :-)


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Laura Arjona Reina]

Dear all
Thanks everybody for your input in this topic.
Double thanks to all the people that researched and worked on this, from
many years ago, until today.

I have setup this git repo:

https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/webwml/webwml2git.git

for me and the people interested to work on the migration.

My plan is update the master branch daily with the new cvs commits, and
use branches to work on the approaches mentioned in the wiki page
https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteGitTransition

The branches include a "cvs-revisions" file with the results of the
git-cvsimport (it will be updated daily, too), that may be useful.

You can find more details in the bug report (#845297):

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=845297

People interested in working on the migration to git, or tracking what's
happening with it from now on, *please* subscribe to the bug and the
wiki page, and use them to send/write your ideas, patches, etc.

Note that I have no Perl scripts, very few bash scripts, and I just
learned about po4a yesterday, so don't think that I can do the migration
alone! I'll try to ease the work of anybody wanting to work, though, and
gather all the important info in the bug repo, and wiki page.

You can find me in the #debian-www irc channel (larjona).

Best regards
-- 
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 08:28:22PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> Quoting Andreas Tille :
> >I can ensure that ~260MiB is quite much for my Vietnamese friend Minh
> >who just started with the translations.
> 
> I wonder whether we should keep the complete history of the Debian web
> in git. Who needs this? Why not cut it at some point, maybe with a year
> of overlap between CSV and git, e.g. having >= 2016-01-01 in Git.
 
While I certainly have no say about it (well, some of my commits are
dating before 2006 would vanish :-) ) I'd call this a sensible approach.
On the other hand I'm not sure whether this would cut the size by an
order of magnitude or simply by only 10-20%.

Kind regards

   Andreas.

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[W. Martin Borgert]

Quoting Andreas Tille :

I can ensure that ~260MiB is quite much for my Vietnamese friend Minh
who just started with the translations.


I wonder whether we should keep the complete history of the Debian web
in git. Who needs this? Why not cut it at some point, maybe with a year
of overlap between CSV and git, e.g. having >= 2016-01-01 in Git.

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Mathieu Parent]

2016-11-23 19:48 GMT+01:00 Andreas Tille :
> Hi,

Hello,

> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 03:52:47PM +, Neil McGovern wrote:
[...]
> I can ensure that ~260MiB is quite much for my Vietnamese friend Minh
> who just started with the translations.  She is doing this on an old
> netbook I have given her and her connection is weak as well.  It would
> be really good if partial checkouts would be possible.

git clone has "--depth" flag. Setting it to 1 will reduce the
bandwidth and used  space.

Regards

-- 
Mathieu

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 03:52:47PM +, Neil McGovern wrote:
> > 
> > Sure. I tried git-cvsimport to convert the cvs repo into a git repo (with 
> > -r 
> > option enabled and -A disabled). The whole process took ~60 hours and the 
> > final 
> > git bare repo is ~260MiB large.
> > 
> > I also found that the process is incremental after the initial import as 
> > long 
> > as the history is not modified, which is a really good news for those who 
> > wants 
> > to work on the transition.
> 
> Thanks for that, it's certainly useful data!

Since the transition Wiki page[1] says:

  In CVS we have partial checkouts and in git that could be done with
  git submodules but it introduces additional complications to the
  workflow, and it's probably not worthwhile (we'd need to check with
  translators or people working in sections of the website, to see if it
  would be much trouble to just clone the whole repository). 

I can ensure that ~260MiB is quite much for my Vietnamese friend Minh
who just started with the translations.  She is doing this on an old
netbook I have given her and her connection is weak as well.  It would
be really good if partial checkouts would be possible.

Kind regards

 Andreas.

[1] https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteGitTransition

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Boyuan Yang]

2016-11-22 18:16 GMT+08:00 Laura Arjona Reina :
> I've opened a bug report:
>
> #845297: [www.debian.org] Website transition from CVS to Git
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=845297
>
> and created a wiki page:
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteGitTransition

Looks great!

AFAIK there are some blocking issues affecting the migration of
buildsystem since it depends on CVS. The biggest piece is
Perl/Local/VCS_VCS.pm. This file needs to be rewritten completely into
something like VCS_Git.pm before we can run `make' on the top dir
without any error message.

--
Sincerely,
Boyuan Yang

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Laura Arjona Reina]

Hi again

I've opened a bug report:

#845297: [www.debian.org] Website transition from CVS to Git
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=845297

and created a wiki page:

https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteGitTransition

Best regards

--
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Laura Arjona Reina]

Hi

El 21 de noviembre de 2016 17:11:12 CET, "W. Martin Borgert" 
 escribió:
>Quoting Neil McGovern :
>> * Deploy weblate for translations,
>
>This would require http://bugs.debian.org/745661 to be fixed.
>Which would also help others who want to use the tool.
>

Small clarification:

I was exploring if weblate allowed to handle the wml files directly, but it 
doesn't (and it's ok).

So  #745661 is not a blocker for cvs to git migration.

(It would be awesome to have weblate in Debian, in any case!)

I'll go on exploring other options.

>> * Update large chunks of the site to use pofiles. Some files use it
>but
>> not for all content, and there's a number of files that don't use it
>at
>> all.
>
>I agree, that PO is the way to go.
>I had less issues with PO as with full-text translation
>e.g. for the release notes.

Despite of the migration from cvs to git, any contribution towards making the 
webpages use more gettext is very appreciated.

Anybody interested in helping on this (for example, explain some things) please 
ping me, because I'm mostly learning by try-error using the already 
gettextified wml files.

Cheers

Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[W. Martin Borgert]

Quoting Neil McGovern :

* Deploy weblate for translations,


This would require http://bugs.debian.org/745661 to be fixed.
Which would also help others who want to use the tool.


* Update large chunks of the site to use pofiles. Some files use it but
not for all content, and there's a number of files that don't use it at
all.


I agree, that PO is the way to go.
I had less issues with PO as with full-text translation
e.g. for the release notes.

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Neil McGovern]

Hi there,

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 04:17:27PM +0800, Boyuan Yang wrote:
> 在 2016年11月20日星期日 SGT 下午12:08:04，您写道：
> > For what it's worth, there's also git-cvsimport(1) and
> > git-cvsexportcommit(1) that can be used if someone really wants to
> > contribute and doesn't want to touch cvs itself.
> 
> Sure. I tried git-cvsimport to convert the cvs repo into a git repo (with -r 
> option enabled and -A disabled). The whole process took ~60 hours and the 
> final 
> git bare repo is ~260MiB large.
> 
> I also found that the process is incremental after the initial import as long 
> as the history is not modified, which is a really good news for those who 
> wants 
> to work on the transition.
> 

Thanks for that, it's certainly useful data!

> I think we can make a smooth transition through the following process:
> 
> * open a git repository under the webwml alioth team, make an initial import.
> * set up a crontab job somewhere (e.g., directly on alioth.d.o) and sync from 
> the cvs repository to git repository several times every day. Incremental 
> update is easy and can be finished within 10 minutes every time we sync them.
> * gradually port all potential infrastructures (e.g., tools used to update 
> debian.org website) from cvs repository to git repository.

This is the main issue - the actual tooling is fairly straightforward in
terms of the get-from-git-and-compile system, but there's a large
non-trivial amount of work for the translation systems.

Laura Arjona Reina is currently looking at this, and the current
thinking (AIUI) is that we need to:
* Update the translation system to use Po4a::Wml
* Deploy weblate for translations, or modify the process to use hashes
rather than version numbers
* Update large chunks of the site to use pofiles. Some files use it but
not for all content, and there's a number of files that don't use it at
all.

Help with the above is welcome :)

Neil


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Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Boyuan Yang]

在 2016年11月20日星期日 SGT 下午12:08:04，您写道：
> For what it's worth, there's also git-cvsimport(1) and
> git-cvsexportcommit(1) that can be used if someone really wants to
> contribute and doesn't want to touch cvs itself.

Sure. I tried git-cvsimport to convert the cvs repo into a git repo (with -r 
option enabled and -A disabled). The whole process took ~60 hours and the final 
git bare repo is ~260MiB large.

I also found that the process is incremental after the initial import as long 
as the history is not modified, which is a really good news for those who wants 
to work on the transition.

I think we can make a smooth transition through the following process:

* open a git repository under the webwml alioth team, make an initial import.
* set up a crontab job somewhere (e.g., directly on alioth.d.o) and sync from 
the cvs repository to git repository several times every day. Incremental 
update is easy and can be finished within 10 minutes every time we sync them.
* gradually port all potential infrastructures (e.g., tools used to update 
debian.org website) from cvs repository to git repository.
* set up a "transition day". After that given day, all the commits have to go 
into the git repository. Done.

What do you think?


--
Sincerely,
Boyuan Yang

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Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Harlan Lieberman-Berg]

Boyuan Yang <073p...@gmail.com> writes:
> I know there is a saying that "If things ain't broken, don't fix it.". But 
> this 
> is nearly 2017 today, not 2007 or 1997. CVS is seriouly outdated and largely 
> replaced by SVN (or even Git).

For what it's worth, there's also git-cvsimport(1) and
git-cvsexportcommit(1) that can be used if someone really wants to
contribute and doesn't want to touch cvs itself.

Sincerely,
-- 
Harlan Lieberman-Berg
~hlieberman

Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Geert Stappers]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 12:46:55PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Boyuan Yang wrote:
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > As a newcomer who wants to contribute to the Debian website, I was shocked 
> > when I heard that debian.org website is still using CVS to manage the 
> > source 
> > code.
> > 
> > I know there is a saying that "If things ain't broken, don't fix it.". But 
> > this 
> > is nearly 2017 today, not 2007 or 1997. CVS is seriouly outdated and 
> > largely 
> > replaced by SVN (or even Git).
> > 
> > If we continue to use CVS in the website source management, the 
> > disadvantages 
> > are clear:
> > 
> > * All the shortcomings that exist in CVS but solved by SVN or Git.
> > * Fewer and fewer people know how to manipulate with CVS, and most of the 
> > others won't be willing to learn it.
> > * Difficulty in setting up modern web interface. (Compare viewvc with 
> > GitHub, or 
> > for free software, GitLab or even cgit.)
> > * Difficulty in mirroring.
> > * ...which means the number of new content contributor would decrease.
> > 
> > Needless to say there are various tools that can help convert a CVS repo 
> > into 
> > a SVN repo or Git repo and they handle this job properly.
> 
> This idea comes up every few years but we haven't yet found someone
> with the time, skills and motivation to implement it.
> Some historical documents and discussions are in these links:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/20130516005223.gv26...@rzlab.ucr.edu
> https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteVCSEvaluation
> https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteSVNTransition
> 
> > I know the migration to other version control system would not be trivial 
> > and 
> > hurt the current workflow, but I strongly suggest that we set up a 
> > timetable or 
> > future plan. So will debian.org continue to use CVS to manage its source 
> > code? 
> > If yes, when will we re-analyze this choice? If not, when will we do the 
> > migration?

Roadmap
* Realize that we MUST adept. A change is really needed.
* Accept that there will be temporary breakage
* Announce that leaving CVS is coming up
* Have canned replies: "Currently this is going on, See URL for how to help"
* Do a last CVS change and commit
echo "switched to git" > switch.announce.tmp
echo "see URL" >> switch.announce.tmp
mv README README.tmp
cat switch.announce.tmp README.tmp > README
# cvs add README
cvs commit -m "thank you and goodbye"
* Make CVS read only
* Convert CVS repository to a git repository
* Put the git repository on-line
* Work with ( read from and write to ) the git repo
* Smile because now the journey is really started
* Focus on being able to update the website again
* Enjoy the milestone of a website update
* Now focus on getting a translation working again
* Make more translations possible
* Be happy surprised about whatelse showed up
* Conquer those challenges
* Replace CVS references with git ones. To avoid that people mis the new 
workflow
* Enjoy reaching the goal


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Leven en laten leven


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Re: Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Paul Wise]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Boyuan Yang wrote:

> Needless to say there are various tools that can help convert a CVS repo into
> a SVN repo or Git repo and they handle this job properly.

This idea comes up every few years but we haven't yet found someone
with the time, skills and motivation to implement it. Some historical
documents and discussions are in these links:

https://lists.debian.org/20130516005223.gv26...@rzlab.ucr.edu
https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteVCSEvaluation
https://wiki.debian.org/WebsiteSVNTransition

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Let's stop using CVS for debian.org website

[Boyuan Yang]

(CC-ing to debian-devel for a larger audience. But please, use debian-www 
instead of debian-devel for the discussion to avoid the crossposting hell.)

Hi all,

As a newcomer who wants to contribute to the Debian website, I was shocked 
when I heard that debian.org website is still using CVS to manage the source 
code.

I know there is a saying that "If things ain't broken, don't fix it.". But this 
is nearly 2017 today, not 2007 or 1997. CVS is seriouly outdated and largely 
replaced by SVN (or even Git).

If we continue to use CVS in the website source management, the disadvantages 
are clear:

* All the shortcomings that exist in CVS but solved by SVN or Git.
* Fewer and fewer people know how to manipulate with CVS, and most of the 
others won't be willing to learn it.
* Difficulty in setting up modern web interface. (Compare viewvc with GitHub, 
or 
for free software, GitLab or even cgit.)
* Difficulty in mirroring.
* ...which means the number of new content contributor would decrease.

Needless to say there are various tools that can help convert a CVS repo into 
a SVN repo or Git repo and they handle this job properly.

I know the migration to other version control system would not be trivial and 
hurt the current workflow, but I strongly suggest that we set up a timetable or 
future plan. So will debian.org continue to use CVS to manage its source code? 
If yes, when will we re-analyze this choice? If not, when will we do the 
migration?

Thanks!


Sincerely,
Boyuan Yang

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