Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Steve Langasek wrote: While I do prefer sendmail, I think there is one technical issue you guys are glossing over: The fact that we have an installed base of Exim, and documentation all over the place that assumes the Debian default is Exim, Such as? I haven't seen any documentation that makes this assumption. The Installation Guide does: - http://www.debian.org/releases/lenny/i386/ch06s03.html.en#pkgsel Which also means that the Mail server task in tasksel would need to be changed if there is a switch. - http://www.debian.org/releases/lenny/i386/ch08s05.html.en -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Le lundi 18 mai 2009 à 01:47 -0400, Micah Anderson a écrit : I'm not sure why other distributions have decided to choose Postfix as their default, but if I were to take a guess I would think that it is because it is easier for new users to setup. But perhaps that is a subjective assessment based on my own experiences. In Debian, since both have a very easy debconf setup, I think this is irrelevant for default installations. Any other considerations of features or configuration is also irrelevant, since people installing a real email server should know what they want to install. To make a choice, I’d say we should have a look at security and memory usage. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in `- future understand things” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Mon,18.May.09, 09:45:31, Josselin Mouette wrote: To make a choice, I’d say we should have a look at security and memory usage. Maybe also startup speed? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org writes: On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 10:22:40PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Given that, I would say that churning the installation by making a supermajority of sites change their MTA seems like a non-starter to me. I do not see how changing the default MTA for future Debian installs will cause churn for people. If people are happy with continuing on with their currently installed Exim4 packages, they will continue to be happy with that, and should not be forced to change MTAs. Debian deciding to change MTAs affects new installs, and it signals a choice that this is the MTA that we would like to support as our default. I'm not sure why other distributions have decided to choose Postfix as their default, but if I were to take a guess I would think that it is because it is easier for new users to setup. But perhaps that is a subjective assessment based on my own experiences. micah -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 09:25:59AM +0200, Luca Niccoli wrote:
2009/5/7 Brian May b...@snoopy.debian.net:
However, I very much dislike this Unix feature as it means mail can
accumulate on any {user,system} account on any computer and not get
noticed by the {user,system administrator}.
Not getting mail from cron is worse I think... I would instead like
to have something popping up when I log in in X saying me You have
mail, like it happens by default if I log in from terminal (and in
movies from the '80s).
Just add pam_mail to e.g. /etc/pam.d/gdm (if you use gdm).
--
Lionel
--
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Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Fri, May 08, 2009 at 08:23:33AM +0100, Neil Williams wrote: At which point, I begin to wonder if 'cron' and 'at' cannot simply be told to use a log file if no MTA exists. Alternatively, create a dummy-mta that converts MTA requests into log files without all the mail headers. Log files are not notifications. If the notification mechanism used by cron and smartctl and many other daemons (that is, a local MTA) needs to be replaced, let us at least replace it with a notification system. -- Jon Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On 2009-05-09 22:20:47 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: According to popcon, only about 68% of Debian users have exim4 installed, and 18% have postfix installed. I don't think that's much of a lead for exim4, considering most of the exim4 installs are probably due solely to its status as a default. If you want a user point of view, I have exim4 on my Debian machines because this is the default (at that time I didn't even know that postfix existed) and I have postfix on my Mac OS X machine because this is the default there. I had to do some simple changes in the configuration for both, without reading the *whole* documentation. And I found that much easier with postfix. I find exim4's config files rather obfuscated, and the relation between source files and generated files is not clear; some config files are not always taken into account because another one can override them (things may have improved since, see bug 446367 for an example), user changes are sometimes discarded by an upgrade, and so on... I don't know how the postfix configuration is under Debian, though. BTW, concerning the Bcc header, exim4 breaks the sendmail compatibility whereas postfix is OK, IIRC. I think that for my next Debian machine, I'll choose postfix. -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.org - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.org/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arenaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Monday 11 May 2009 07:45:02 Manoj Srivastava wrote: Changing defaults with a large installed base begs the question: Why? Random churn for churns sake is not the answer. But upgrades would (should?) keep exim installed. A new default would only affect new installations. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On 2009-05-11, Brian May b...@snoopy.debian.net wrote: On Fri, May 08, 2009 at 11:31:07PM +0200, Jens Peter Secher wrote: +1 for ssmtp I found ssmtp couldn't cope with mail my various systems were generating, something about fixed maximum buffer lengths from memory. Please not ssmtp. If I recall it correctly I found no way to get it to send mail to a exim-based smarthost via TLS in a sane way. Kind regards, Philipp Kern -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Philipp Kern tr...@philkern.de writes: On 2009-05-11, Brian May b...@snoopy.debian.net wrote: On Fri, May 08, 2009 at 11:31:07PM +0200, Jens Peter Secher wrote: +1 for ssmtp I found ssmtp couldn't cope with mail my various systems were generating, something about fixed maximum buffer lengths from memory. Please not ssmtp. If I recall it correctly I found no way to get it to send mail to a exim-based smarthost via TLS in a sane way. What about msmtp? http://msmtp.sourceforge.net/ /Simon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
* Simon Josefsson si...@josefsson.org, 2009-05-11, 12:55: +1 for ssmtp I found ssmtp couldn't cope with mail my various systems were generating, something about fixed maximum buffer lengths from memory. Please not ssmtp. If I recall it correctly I found no way to get it to send mail to a exim-based smarthost via TLS in a sane way. What about msmtp? http://msmtp.sourceforge.net/ AFAIK msmtp does not support local mail delivery. -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Jakub Wilk uba...@users.sf.net writes: * Simon Josefsson si...@josefsson.org, 2009-05-11, 12:55: +1 for ssmtp I found ssmtp couldn't cope with mail my various systems were generating, something about fixed maximum buffer lengths from memory. Please not ssmtp. If I recall it correctly I found no way to get it to send mail to a exim-based smarthost via TLS in a sane way. What about msmtp? http://msmtp.sourceforge.net/ AFAIK msmtp does not support local mail delivery. I suspect that is part of the design goal of msmtp. Local mail delivery can be handled by other tools, can't it? Generally, it seems like a good idea to separate these two separate tasks into different tools. /Simon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
* Simon Josefsson si...@josefsson.org, 2009-05-11, 15:06: What about msmtp? http://msmtp.sourceforge.net/ AFAIK msmtp does not support local mail delivery. I suspect that is part of the design goal of msmtp. Local mail delivery can be handled by other tools, can't it? Generally, it seems like a good idea to separate these two separate tasks into different tools. Well, if anybody knows how to couple msmtp with an MDA, I'd be glad to see a solution. -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org writes: and documentation all over the place that assumes the Debian default is Exim I think that's a weakness that should be addressed regardless of what happens with the default. [Of course changing defaults is one way to force the issue a bit, but of course it doesn't stop people from just replacing one assumption with another...] -Miles -- Most attacks seem to take place at night, during a rainstorm, uphill, where four map sheets join. -- Anon. British Officer in WW I -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Quoting Steve Langasek (vor...@debian.org): My point is precisely that I don't think there are any salient technical advantages of one over the other. Either postfix or exim4 meets our needs for a default MTA, and both have packages that appear to be well-supported by their maintainers and by the community; so as a TC member I could only vote for postfix because I don't *like* exim4 (and its packaging), and I do run postfix everywhere. I.e., it's a question of personal preference; I can express the reasons for my preference in terms of technical features of the packages, but it still comes down to a popularity contest in the end. ...balanced by other considerations such as the one bringed by Manoj later (existing installed, base and/or documentation, etc.). Even if the -ctte has trouble doing the decision, I think that having that discussion happening in the CTTE would help converging towards a decision. You guys are there *also* because we trust you for not only putting your personal preferences over higher considerations... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Fri, May 08, 2009 at 11:31:07PM +0200, Jens Peter Secher wrote: +1 for ssmtp I found ssmtp couldn't cope with mail my various systems were generating, something about fixed maximum buffer lengths from memory. Not to mention http://bugs.debian.org/508759. The fact that a simple MTA can have such bugs, for so long with nothing being done, persuaded me to look at alternatives. I didn't even bother complaining about the maximum buffer length problem. I went to esmtp, and haven't had any problems since. I don't know, maybe this has been fixed since then, but it seemed like poor program design to me that it can't cope with what appears to be a valid (and legitimate) email. -- Brian May b...@snoopy.debian.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Sun, May 10 2009, Miles Bader wrote: Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org writes: and documentation all over the place that assumes the Debian default is Exim I think that's a weakness that should be addressed regardless of what happens with the default. [Of course changing defaults is one way to force the issue a bit, but of course it doesn't stop people from just replacing one assumption with another...] Changing defaults with a large installed base begs the question: Why? Random churn for churns sake is not the answer. manoj -- Q: How many Marxists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A: None: The lightbulb contains the seeds of its own revolution. Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Sun, May 10 2009, Steve Langasek wrote: On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 10:22:40PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sat, May 09 2009, Don Armstrong wrote: On Sat, 09 May 2009, Steve Langasek wrote: My point is precisely that I don't think there are any salient technical advantages of one over the other. Just going by what MTAs -ctte members are running, it'd be 3, 2, 2 (postfix, exim, and sendmail.) [Though I honestly wouldn't suggest sendmail as the default, Manoj probably would. ;-)] While I do prefer sendmail, I think there is one technical issue you guys are glossing over: The fact that we have an installed base of Exim, and documentation all over the place that assumes the Debian default is Exim, Such as? I haven't seen any documentation that makes this assumption. and given that other things appear equal (Exim, postfix, and sendmail all meet technical requirements, all are supported by strong communities, etc), the minimal disruption to a tested setup rule applies -- and Exim has a strong lead over theothers, my personal preference notwithstanding. According to popcon, only about 68% of Debian users have exim4 installed, and 18% have postfix installed. I don't think that's much of a lead for exim4, considering most of the exim4 installs are probably due solely to its status as a default. popcon is a silly way to try to suss what a default is, really. How one figures that out is to try and install a new Debian system, and one where some package calls for a mail-transport-agent dependency, and see what gets installed by default. The answer is Exim, and that is what makes it the default. That, and since more than two thrds of all Debian users likely have Exim installed, and less than one fith have postfix, seems like a significant lead to me. Given that, I would say that churning the installation by making a supermajority of sites change their MTA seems like a non-starter to me. manoj -- My parents went to Niagara Falls and all I got was this crummy life. Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Quoting Micah Anderson (mi...@debian.org): I think our problem is, how do we go about making this decision? If the problem is well summarized (the wiki page you pointed), why not make use of our Technical Committee for this? It certainly needs someone committing self to track down the issue once the decision is made (if the decision is made to change). Apparently, Martin Krafft kind of volunteered, at least if the change is meant to be postfix. I personnally think that we have a TC *also* for such kind of though decisions, not only to solve out disputes between package maintainers. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 08:04:07AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: Quoting Micah Anderson (mi...@debian.org): I think our problem is, how do we go about making this decision? If the problem is well summarized (the wiki page you pointed), why not make use of our Technical Committee for this? It certainly needs someone committing self to track down the issue once the decision is made (if the decision is made to change). Apparently, Martin Krafft kind of volunteered, at least if the change is meant to be postfix. I personnally think that we have a TC *also* for such kind of though decisions, not only to solve out disputes between package maintainers. If this were put to the TC, I can't see any way that this would be anything more than a poll of the personal preferences of the members of the TC. If someone who's in a position to make this decision decides they'd like to delegate the decision to the TC, then ok, I suppose we can decide it that way; but otherwise I don't see any reason that a vote of the TC is a better way to decide this than any other arbitrary method... -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Quoting Steve Langasek (vor...@debian.org): If this were put to the TC, I can't see any way that this would be anything more than a poll of the personal preferences of the members of the TC. If someone who's in a position to make this decision decides they'd like to delegate the decision to the TC, then ok, I suppose we can decide it that way; but otherwise I don't see any reason that a vote of the TC is a better way to decide this than any other arbitrary method... Well, I grant the TC members for being wiser than just giving their personal preferences and ponder the consequences of various options when it comes to a technically related problem. That's probably my personal opinion but I would personnally push for the TC to be more involved in such strategical decisions. You guys are not just a random collection of old timers, after all..:-) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Saturday 09 May 2009 02:35:18 Micah Anderson wrote: Some people clearly want postfix as the default MTA in Debian (I do), and some people dont want the default to change from Exim. There are some people who want something else, but so far that something else has not be technically satisfactory. I think our problem is, how do we go about making this decision? There are really two orthogonal things being discussed here: One question is whether the default MTA should be a full or proper implementation versus a tiny and limited implementation (or -- the latest idea -- none at all). The other is whether, if the full implementation is chosen, it should be Exim or Postfix. It might lead this argument to a clearer conclusion if those two issues are treated separately. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
also sprach Peter Eisentraut pet...@debian.org [2009.05.09.1142 +0200]: There are really two orthogonal things being discussed here: One question is whether the default MTA should be a full or proper implementation versus a tiny and limited implementation (or -- the latest idea -- none at all). The other is whether, if the full implementation is chosen, it should be Exim or Postfix. It might lead this argument to a clearer conclusion if those two issues are treated separately. There's a third, issue, which is #508644: to abstract default-mta (or similar), to make any such transition feasible in a future-proof way. Maybe we ought to concentrate on that first? I think I am to blame a bit for adding to the fuel of the postfix-exim4 debate with the doodle link, which just took us away from the actual discussion. Sorry. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@d.o Related projects: : :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduckhttp://vcs-pkg.org `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems although occasionally there is something to be said for solitude. -- special agent dale cooper digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 08:55:11AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote: Quoting Steve Langasek (vor...@debian.org): If this were put to the TC, I can't see any way that this would be anything more than a poll of the personal preferences of the members of the TC. If someone who's in a position to make this decision decides they'd like to delegate the decision to the TC, then ok, I suppose we can decide it that way; but otherwise I don't see any reason that a vote of the TC is a better way to decide this than any other arbitrary method... Well, I grant the TC members for being wiser than just giving their personal preferences and ponder the consequences of various options when it comes to a technically related problem. My point is precisely that I don't think there are any salient technical advantages of one over the other. Either postfix or exim4 meets our needs for a default MTA, and both have packages that appear to be well-supported by their maintainers and by the community; so as a TC member I could only vote for postfix because I don't *like* exim4 (and its packaging), and I do run postfix everywhere. I.e., it's a question of personal preference; I can express the reasons for my preference in terms of technical features of the packages, but it still comes down to a popularity contest in the end. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Sat, 09 May 2009, Steve Langasek wrote: My point is precisely that I don't think there are any salient technical advantages of one over the other. Just going by what MTAs -ctte members are running, it'd be 3, 2, 2 (postfix, exim, and sendmail.) [Though I honestly wouldn't suggest sendmail as the default, Manoj probably would. ;-)] Don Armstrong -- NASCAR is a Yankee conspiracy to keep you all placated so the South won't rise again. -- http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=327 http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Sat, May 09 2009, Don Armstrong wrote: On Sat, 09 May 2009, Steve Langasek wrote: My point is precisely that I don't think there are any salient technical advantages of one over the other. Just going by what MTAs -ctte members are running, it'd be 3, 2, 2 (postfix, exim, and sendmail.) [Though I honestly wouldn't suggest sendmail as the default, Manoj probably would. ;-)] While I do prefer sendmail, I think there is one technical issue you guys are glossing over: The fact that we have an installed base of Exim, and documentation all over the place that assumes the Debian default is Exim, and given that other things appear equal (Exim, postfix, and sendmail all meet technical requirements, all are supported by strong communities, etc), the minimal disruption to a tested setup rule applies -- and Exim has a strong lead over theothers, my personal preference notwithstanding. manoj -- Usage: fortune -P [] -a [xsz] [Q: [file]] [rKe9] -v6[+] dataspec ... inputdir Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Sat, May 09, 2009 at 10:22:40PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sat, May 09 2009, Don Armstrong wrote: On Sat, 09 May 2009, Steve Langasek wrote: My point is precisely that I don't think there are any salient technical advantages of one over the other. Just going by what MTAs -ctte members are running, it'd be 3, 2, 2 (postfix, exim, and sendmail.) [Though I honestly wouldn't suggest sendmail as the default, Manoj probably would. ;-)] While I do prefer sendmail, I think there is one technical issue you guys are glossing over: The fact that we have an installed base of Exim, and documentation all over the place that assumes the Debian default is Exim, Such as? I haven't seen any documentation that makes this assumption. and given that other things appear equal (Exim, postfix, and sendmail all meet technical requirements, all are supported by strong communities, etc), the minimal disruption to a tested setup rule applies -- and Exim has a strong lead over theothers, my personal preference notwithstanding. According to popcon, only about 68% of Debian users have exim4 installed, and 18% have postfix installed. I don't think that's much of a lead for exim4, considering most of the exim4 installs are probably due solely to its status as a default. So I don't find this persuasive. Which is largely beside the point; this is not debian-ctte -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Fri, 08 May 2009 08:12:35 +0300 Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi wrote: pe, 2009-05-08 kello 11:43 +0800, Paul Wise kirjoitti: I find the notion of a default MTA to be silly. Most desktops or laptops or cellphones proably do not need an MTA. I'd agree, were it not for cron. At which point, I begin to wonder if 'cron' and 'at' cannot simply be told to use a log file if no MTA exists. Alternatively, create a dummy-mta that converts MTA requests into log files without all the mail headers. -- Neil Williams = http://www.data-freedom.org/ http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/ http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/ pgpNJ85TYTvP1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Hi, Christian Surchi wrote: ssmpt is not able to handle a queue, so I imagine that it needs necessarily a permanent connection with a smarthost... am I wrong? No, you're right. I don't like this one for *any* machine. I wouldn't like this as the default debian setup. Risking losing mails isn't an option. Actually, for the default setup, I'd prefer a solution that targets the Joe Normal-user who doesn't (want to) know what an MTA is for, because he/she only uses an MUA that delivers mail to the provider's smarthost anyway (Thunderbird or Evolution for example). For example: By default, install a very minimalistic MTA that only delivers mail to the local spool file (and that cannot be configured to do anything else). Then introduce a way to notify the user when there's new mail in the spool file and to directly show the mail to the user (Maybe an extra tool running under Gnome or KDE. Or a default Thunderbird/Evolution-configuration that will always fetch mails from the spool file). Everyone who needs more than this (probably most of the debian-devel-audience, including me) can install $preferred_mta. Cheers, Wolf -- Sünde ist nicht eine begrenzte Liste moralischer Verfehlungen. Sünde ist eine selbstbezogene Lebensführung, in der Menschen die Konsequenzen ihrer Handlungsweise ignorieren. (Richard Chartres, Bischof von London) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
2009/5/6 Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org: Le mercredi 06 mai 2009 à 23:29 +0200, Luk Claes a écrit : Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? Given that the default configuration is extremely simplistic and doesn’t use a percent of either exim or postfix features, I still wonder why it is not something like nullmailer or ssmtp. +1 for ssmtp -- Jens Peter Secher. _DD6A 05B0 174E BFB2 D4D9 B52E 0EE5 978A FE63 E8A1 jpsecher gmail com_. A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion. Q. Why is top posting bad? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
This discussion has happened before, many times. Some folks spent some time on a wiki page describing the different MTAs, would be worth reviewing for some background and comparison: http://wiki.debian.org/DefaultMTA Some people clearly want postfix as the default MTA in Debian (I do), and some people dont want the default to change from Exim. There are some people who want something else, but so far that something else has not be technically satisfactory. I think our problem is, how do we go about making this decision? Micah -- #debian-devel: 09:35 Zugschlus the exim maintainers absolutely demand that postfix be default MTA for lenny 09:35 Zugschlus have the postfixites feel the pain they deserve 09:36 Zugschlus let the LOUD people have the work they want 09:44 Zugschlus realist: I fully admit that postfix is vastly superior over exim 09:45 Zugschlus end of discussion -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Marco d'Itri wrote: On May 06, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Given that the default configuration is extremely simplistic and doesn???t use a percent of either exim or postfix features, I still wonder why it is not something like nullmailer or ssmtp. Because it's expected from a UNIX system to be able to deliver mail to local mailboxes. But now (some? most?) users would like to collect mail in one mailbox, with more features (POP, IMAP, antispam), which are an overkill for every system. Anyway, POSIX prescrives only mailx command (to send mail and read local mail). LSB defines also sendmail. sarcasm it is expected from UNIX systems that /usr can be a partition. Where is the line from old behaviour, and really actual user expectations? /sarcasm ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Luk Claes wrote: Steve Langasek wrote: On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:26PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Carsten Hey cars...@debian.org [2009.05.05.1645 +0200]: FWIW, Ubuntu did what I consider the right thing: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/21235281/mdadm_2.6.7.1-1ubuntu4_2.6.7.1-1ubuntu5.diff.gz Well, this is the right thing in Ubuntu because postfix is the default MTA for Ubuntu. In Debian, this is not the case, so mdadm recommending postfix by preference causes inconsistent behavior depending on the order in which the user installs packages. Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? No, most of users don't need a full MTA, but only a local MTA (usually only sendmail command, but ev. only a socket listening to localhost:25). SO I would propose a more simple mailer (esmtpd, nullmailer, ...) For this reason, I would like to distinguish full mta and sendmail interface for our dependencies. ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Le jeudi 07 mai 2009 à 03:24 +0200, Marco d'Itri a écrit : Because it's expected from a UNIX system to be able to deliver mail to local mailboxes. And who cares a shit about system emails piling up in /var/mail? -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in `- future understand things” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
2009/5/7 Brian May b...@snoopy.debian.net:
esmtp can do this, if you configure it to use procmail or something.
I use and like esmtp, but I don't see how we could depend on it as
default MTA if it has to deliver local mail: like you said there must
be procmail installed and esmtp needs some configuration to use it.
Maybe a meta-package depending on esmtp-run and procmail with a
postinst script to configure esmtp?
Or, if configuring esmtp to use procmail doesn't do harm if the latter
isn't installed, it could be set this way by default and then a simple
meta-package would do.
However, I very much dislike this Unix feature as it means mail can
accumulate on any {user,system} account on any computer and not get
noticed by the {user,system administrator}.
Not getting mail from cron is worse I think...
I would instead like to have something popping up when I log in in X
saying me You have mail, like it happens by default if I log in from
terminal (and in movies from the '80s).
Cheers,
Luca
--
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Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Il giorno mer, 06/05/2009 alle 23.53 +0200, Josselin Mouette ha scritto: Given that the default configuration is extremely simplistic and doesn’t use a percent of either exim or postfix features, I still wonder why it is not something like nullmailer or ssmtp. Is nullmailer actively upstream maintained? ssmpt is not able to handle a queue, so I imagine that it needs necessarily a permanent connection with a smarthost... am I wrong? I don't like this one for *any* machine. bye, Christian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Thu, 07 May 2009 08:01:11 +0200 Giacomo Catenazzi c...@debian.org wrote: Luk Claes wrote: Steve Langasek wrote: On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:26PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Carsten Hey cars...@debian.org [2009.05.05.1645 +0200]: FWIW, Ubuntu did what I consider the right thing: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/21235281/mdadm_2.6.7.1-1ubuntu4_2.6.7.1-1ubuntu5.diff.gz Well, this is the right thing in Ubuntu because postfix is the default MTA for Ubuntu. In Debian, this is not the case, so mdadm recommending postfix by preference causes inconsistent behavior depending on the order in which the user installs packages. Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? No, most of users don't need a full MTA, but only a local MTA (usually only sendmail command, but ev. only a socket listening to localhost:25). SO I would propose a more simple mailer (esmtpd, nullmailer, ...) No, please don't use an esoteric mailer. People who don't know and don't want to know about their local mailer don't need to know about Postfix' complexity. They can set up Postfix with a single debconf questions to a minimal configuration. And people who have to administrate multiple servers will have the same mailer on all of them, even if only some are real MTAs and the others just need to send mail. I was so looking forward to the day when the first step after installing Debian wouldn't be to replace the default MTA with Postfix... Cheers, harry signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Le jeudi 07 mai 2009 à 13:23 +0200, Harald Braumann a écrit : No, please don't use an esoteric mailer. People who don't know and don't want to know about their local mailer don't need to know about Postfix' complexity. They can set up Postfix with a single debconf questions to a minimal configuration. How is that an improvement over Exim? -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in `- future understand things” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
also sprach Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org [2009.05.07.1328 +0200]: How is that an improvement over Exim? There are some of us that have a greater trust level into the security and design of postfix. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@d.o Related projects: : :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduckhttp://vcs-pkg.org `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems alas, i am dying beyond my means. -- oscar wilde digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On 2009-05-07, martin f krafft madd...@debian.org wrote: also sprach Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org [2009.05.07.1328 +0200]: How is that an improvement over Exim? There are some of us that have a greater trust level into the security and design of postfix. DSA uses Exim on their boxes and even ftp-master runs a public facing Exim instance. Do we need to worry now? ;-) Ciao, Philipp Kern -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Le jeudi 07 mai 2009 à 13:36 +0200, martin f krafft a écrit : also sprach Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org [2009.05.07.1328 +0200]: How is that an improvement over Exim? There are some of us that have a greater trust level into the security and design of postfix. Both have a very good security track record, so I don’t think the design alone justifies a possibly painful transition. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in `- future understand things” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On May 07, Harald Braumann ha...@unheit.net wrote: No, please don't use an esoteric mailer. People who don't know and don't want to know about their local mailer don't need to know about Postfix' complexity. They can set up Postfix with a single debconf questions to a minimal configuration. And people who have to It's not just that! A minimal Postfix configuration is an handful of lines while a minimal Exim configuration is huge. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Harald Braumann wrote: On Thu, 07 May 2009 08:01:11 +0200 Giacomo Catenazzi c...@debian.org wrote: No, most of users don't need a full MTA, but only a local MTA (usually only sendmail command, but ev. only a socket listening to localhost:25). SO I would propose a more simple mailer (esmtpd, nullmailer, ...) No, please don't use an esoteric mailer. People who don't know and don't want to know about their local mailer don't need to know about Postfix' complexity. They can set up Postfix with a single debconf questions to a minimal configuration. And people who have to administrate multiple servers will have the same mailer on all of them, even if only some are real MTAs and the others just need to send mail. ok, I see. But the problem still exists: I installed esmtpd. Currently there is not way for other package to tell me that esmtpd is not enough. Take as an example python. Unfortunately it doesn't provide a sendmail function, so it is common for python program to use smtp module and to connect to localhost port 25, to send mails. This will not work with my esmtpd. I would really like to have something like: - default-mta set to exim5 (or postfix or...) - default-sendmail set to default-mta - exim, postfix, etc. provide both, - esmtp provides only default-sendmail. Could we do this? ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
also sprach Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org [2009.05.07.1423 +0200]: Both have a very good security track record, so I don’t think the design alone justifies a possibly painful transition. Where's the pain? 0. figure out how to solve #508644 properly, and not only for default-mta, but default-syslog etc. 1a. make it a release goal for squeeze. 1b. make sure postfix packaging is up to the task, give Lamont some minions (/me volunteers) 2. switch to postfix Anyway, with this postfix discussion, we ought not lose focus of #508644... The open questions are 1. whether to use the chance and implement lsb-sendmail-cmd in addition to default-mta, and 2. whether to use virtual or dummy packages. I think raising the issue of (1) in the process and letting each maintainer do the proper thing is sensible. I also think virtual packages for (2) are up to the task, and if we have the policy on our side, we can be reasonably sure that none of those default-* packages get provided more than once... and if they did during a transition, well, it wouldn't actually harm... -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@d.o Related projects: : :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduckhttp://vcs-pkg.org `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. -- edsgar w. dijkstra digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Thu, 07 May 2009, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le jeudi 07 mai 2009 à 13:23 +0200, Harald Braumann a écrit : No, please don't use an esoteric mailer. People who don't know and don't want to know about their local mailer don't need to know about Postfix' complexity. They can set up Postfix with a single debconf questions to a minimal configuration. How is that an improvement over Exim? It isn't. I personally find postfix to be lighter and I consider it saner, more secure in theory, and much easier to configure for complex tasks. So, when asked about it, I always say switch to postfix. But if we remain with exim as the default, you won't see me sad at all: it works, it works well, and it is just as easy for the user to setup using debconf as postfix. Although IMHO we really should tell people that satellite is the best bet when they don't know what to answer (if we are not doing that yet). Heck, I'd be happy if we only offered satellite and local (no network), as MX operation requires a lot of other stuff that needs extensive configuration nowadays (content filtering, AV, blacklists, etc). Nullmailer and other reduced-functionality choices OTOH, is not something *I* am prepared to tolerate in any server or workstation (in fact, not even on desktops) where I work or at home. So, I will personally really hate it if we switch to something like that by default. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Le jeudi 07 mai 2009 à 10:35 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh a écrit : I personally find postfix to be lighter and I consider it saner, more secure in theory, and much easier to configure for complex tasks. From my personal experience, postfix makes it easier to do simple tasks, while exim makes it easier to do complex tasks. So, when asked about it, I always say switch to postfix. But if we remain with exim as the default, you won't see me sad at all: it works, it works well, and it is just as easy for the user to setup using debconf as postfix. Agreed, the most important thing is to keep trivial setups, well… trivial to set up. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in `- future understand things” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 07-05-2009 11:29, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le jeudi 07 mai 2009 à 10:35 -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh a écrit : I personally find postfix to be lighter and I consider it saner, more secure in theory, and much easier to configure for complex tasks. From my personal experience, postfix makes it easier to do simple tasks, while exim makes it easier to do complex tasks. I do find it easier to use exim to setup relay using authenticated SMTP, even for the regular user, like somebody using a notebook to relay thru a mail server, it will require a single line in one file. Kind regards - -- Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAkoC+88ACgkQCjAO0JDlykaIvwCdF2cDHOh12sofpDX/VjuA+/wt x5UAn2mv5ua2uEuD1fwFvzQ/DclbgVlq =yQ8o -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Thu, 07 May 2009 13:28:33 +0200 Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Le jeudi 07 mai 2009 à 13:23 +0200, Harald Braumann a écrit : No, please don't use an esoteric mailer. People who don't know and don't want to know about their local mailer don't need to know about Postfix' complexity. They can set up Postfix with a single debconf questions to a minimal configuration. How is that an improvement over Exim? I never talked about Exim. I was just opposing the proposition, that some esoteric mailer like nullsmtp or esmtp will become the default in Debian. Cheers, harry signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Harald Braumann ha...@unheit.net wrote: I never talked about Exim. I was just opposing the proposition, that some esoteric mailer like nullsmtp or esmtp will become the default in Debian. I find the notion of a default MTA to be silly. Most desktops or laptops or cellphones proably do not need an MTA. The MTA to choose on a server depends on what you are doing with the server. My point is that MTA requirements are too diverse to possibly consider any one MTA a useful default. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
pe, 2009-05-08 kello 11:43 +0800, Paul Wise kirjoitti: I find the notion of a default MTA to be silly. Most desktops or laptops or cellphones proably do not need an MTA. I'd agree, were it not for cron. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Steve Langasek wrote: On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:26PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Carsten Hey cars...@debian.org [2009.05.05.1645 +0200]: FWIW, Ubuntu did what I consider the right thing: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/21235281/mdadm_2.6.7.1-1ubuntu4_2.6.7.1-1ubuntu5.diff.gz Well, this is the right thing in Ubuntu because postfix is the default MTA for Ubuntu. In Debian, this is not the case, so mdadm recommending postfix by preference causes inconsistent behavior depending on the order in which the user installs packages. Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? Cheers Luk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On May 06, Luk Claes l...@debian.org wrote: Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? Agreed, it's about time. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Le mercredi 06 mai 2009 à 23:29 +0200, Luk Claes a écrit : Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? Given that the default configuration is extremely simplistic and doesn’t use a percent of either exim or postfix features, I still wonder why it is not something like nullmailer or ssmtp. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in `- future understand things” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 06 mai 2009 à 23:29 +0200, Luk Claes a écrit : Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? Given that the default configuration is extremely simplistic and doesn’t use a percent of either exim or postfix features, I still wonder why it is not something like nullmailer or ssmtp. The default configuration and the default MTA are something different IMHO. The default configuration is the one that should work for most people. The default MTA if the one that should work easily for most situations IMHO. Cheers Luk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
also sprach Joerg Jaspert jo...@debian.org [2009.05.07.0002 +0200]: As much as i like postfix and hate exim: no. If we change, please go to something like nullmailer|ssmtp|whateversimple. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think those do not do queueing, which will break the default assumption that I've seen almost everywhere, which is that when sendmail returns, your email is getting delivered, or you'll get a DSN. Nullmailer is not LSB-compliant. And neither of the small ones handle mail to root on the local system (cron, apticron, logcheck, etc.) in an acceptable manner, I think. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@d.o Related projects: : :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduckhttp://vcs-pkg.org `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems if beethoven's seventh symphony is not by some means abridged, it will soon fall into disuse. -- philip hale, boston music critic, 1837 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
also sprach Marco d'Itri m...@linux.it [2009.05.06.2338 +0200]: Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? Agreed, it's about time. http://doodle.com/exre35q7ckruyxpx -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@d.o Related projects: : :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduckhttp://vcs-pkg.org `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems the human brain is like an enormous fish -- it is flat and slimy and has gills through which it can see. -- monty python digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Le jeudi 07 mai 2009 à 00:01 +0200, Luk Claes a écrit : The default MTA if the one that should work easily for most situations IMHO. Where do we draw the line for “most situations”? If you want to do serious email work, you’ll have to spend some time configuring your exim/postfix and install extra components to run with it. If you don’t, a trivial configuration will do the trick, and you’ll have it just as easily with “light” daemons, but with less bloat. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “I recommend you to learn English in hope that you in `- future understand things” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On 11742 March 1977, Luk Claes wrote: Maybe we should also consider changing the default MTA to postfix? As much as i like postfix and hate exim: no. If we change, please go to something like nullmailer|ssmtp|whateversimple. -- bye, Joerg Overfiend joshk: okay. I've manned a Debian booth before. I need to give you a quick training session. Overfiend So, when's sarge going to be released? Overfiend So, when's sarge going to be released? Overfiend So, when's sarge going to be released? Overfiend So, when's sarge going to be released? Overfiend So, when's sarge going to be released? Overfiend So, when's sarge going to be released? Overfiend So, when's sarge going to be released? Overfiend So, when's sarge going to be released? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Thu, 07 May 2009, martin f krafft wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but I think those do not do queueing, which will break the default assumption that I've seen almost everywhere, which is that when sendmail returns, your email is getting delivered, or you'll get a DSN. Nullmailer does. Nullmailer is not LSB-compliant. Because it doesn't implement -bs (#271662), which is of dubious value (and a part of the LSB specification which only seems to be there because real MTAs supported it; there's was no rationale given in the standards why it has to be there.) And neither of the small ones handle mail to root on the local system (cron, apticron, logcheck, etc.) in an acceptable manner, I think. Nullmailer handles this by sending all of that mail to a single account. The main problem with nullmailer is that it currently can't handle messages which fail permanently (#329192). Don Armstrong -- Vimes hated and despised the privileges of rank, but they had this to be said for them: At least they meant that you could hate and despise them in comfort. -- Terry Pratchett _The Fifth Elephant_ p111 http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 12:14:42AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Joerg Jaspert jo...@debian.org [2009.05.07.0002 +0200]: As much as i like postfix and hate exim: no. If we change, please go to something like nullmailer|ssmtp|whateversimple. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think those do not do queueing, which will break the default assumption that I've seen almost everywhere, which is that when sendmail returns, your email is getting delivered, or you'll get a DSN. Why do you want to wait for a DSN? For these non-queuing solutions, sendmail won't return until the mail have been delivered to the real MTA. If this doesn't not work, the process returns immediately with an error. If the mail does get to a real MTA, and then fails, then the real MTA will do the DSN. All the MUAs I have tried will show this error to the user, and allow the user to retry sending again. Obviously, yes, you really do need a real MTA, with properly queueing, somewhere. It doesn't have to run on every single system though. -- Brian May b...@snoopy.debian.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On May 06, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Given that the default configuration is extremely simplistic and doesn???t use a percent of either exim or postfix features, I still wonder why it is not something like nullmailer or ssmtp. Because it's expected from a UNIX system to be able to deliver mail to local mailboxes. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 03:24:13AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
On May 06, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote:
Given that the default configuration is extremely simplistic and doesn???t
use a percent of either exim or postfix features, I still wonder why it
is not something like nullmailer or ssmtp.
Because it's expected from a UNIX system to be able to deliver mail to
local mailboxes.
esmtp can do this, if you configure it to use procmail or something.
However, I very much dislike this Unix feature as it means mail can
accumulate on any {user,system} account on any computer and not get
noticed by the {user,system administrator}.
--
Brian May b...@snoopy.debian.net
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Re: postfix as default-mta? [Re: Bug#508644: new release goal default-mta?]
Quoting Josselin Mouette (j...@debian.org): Where do we draw the line for “most situations”? If you want to do serious email work, you’ll have to spend some time configuring your exim/postfix and install extra components to run with it. If you don’t, a trivial configuration will do the trick, and you’ll have it just as easily with “light” daemons, but with less bloat. With my preferred hat (the very dumb user/sysadmin hat), I would definitely wote for this. I have several servers spread around here and there in my professionnal environement, which I did setup in the past and all needed to have a local MTA. But none of them being a mail server per se, the MTA being often needed for minor pruposes... All of them are setup with postfix and its default configuration without any fancy stuff. This is the first thing I do when I install a Debian server, indeed. This is very certainly overbloat for these needs but it never harmed.and when some of these later needed a more specific setup, it became very easy to tweak it because of the widely available literature and tools that deal with postfix. So, from such POV, having postfix fits both my needs of a dumb person setup and the needs for more advanced features. Even though I have no competence for this, I've also always considered postfix as a kind of reference when it comes at security and reliabilityas well as somethign well maintained in the log term. That's purely subjective feeling but that counts and I think that having Debian install something that currently has the community recognition that Postfix has is something we wish. I'm not sure that the light daemons have this. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
