Russ Allbery contributed earlier:
The reason why you're not seeing a lot
of constructive engagement with those points here is that most of us are
exhausted with this conversation and tired of repeating ourselves.
Yes, if it is really like that, I understand. But I'm also glad that this
On Thu, Apr 03, 2014 at 09:19:54PM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
previously on this list The Wanderer contributed:
I was explicitly referring to the point in the future when maintainers
do stop providing traditional init scripts. This likely won't happen
that fast, no, but I do think it's
previously on this list Jan Gloser contributed:
Kev, the systemd design document says it all about the lack of design
with statements showing a clear lack of understanding. I would be
ashamed to call it a design document.
I would also like to ask something the people who dislike systemd (as
previously on this list The Wanderer contributed:
I was explicitly referring to the point in the future when maintainers
do stop providing traditional init scripts. This likely won't happen
that fast, no, but I do think it's likely that it will happen - whether
days after the jessie release
On Mar 30, Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote:
See above: I'm unsure Debian Developers have yet a clear view of what
should / must be supported, and what's going to happen in this regard.
At least, it's not clear to me.
I believe that it is pretty much obvious myself:
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On 03/30/2014 01:17 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
On 03/30/2014 02:51 AM, Jan Gloser wrote:
Otherwise if you just personally disagree with the design of
systemd and can't describe such a scenario, why not just migrate to
Gentoo or BSD?
This
On 03/30/2014 08:02 PM, The Wanderer wrote:
If it's been decided to continue to require package maintainers to
provide traditional init scripts as well as systemd unit files - e.g.
for Debian's non-Linux ports - then that benefit would be lost.
This, also, has also been discussed. The
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On 03/30/2014 10:57 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
On 03/30/2014 08:02 PM, The Wanderer wrote:
If it's been decided to continue to require package maintainers to
provide traditional init scripts as well as systemd unit files -
e.g. for Debian's
On Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:31:44 -0500, Kevin Toppins
kevin.topp...@gmail.com wrote:
You think I'm retarded or a troll.
You are an obnoxious censored who decided to disrupt an entire
project just because the project took a decision you don't like.
That's rather childish and selfish.
Greetings
Marc,
Now that systemd has wrecked all kinds of previously working stuff, and
many are beginning to realize the *impossibility* of getting systemd to
work *with* linux - I think this might have some effect this time around.
Hello everybody,
I've been watching this discussion, quite curious what
El Sat, 29 de Mar 2014 a las 11:51 AM, Jan Gloser
jan.renra.glo...@gmail.com escribió:
Now that systemd has wrecked all kinds of previously working stuff,
and many are beginning to realize the *impossibility* of getting
systemd to work *with* linux - I think this might have some effect
this
Jan Gloser jan.renra.glo...@gmail.com writes:
1) I think some valid questions have been raised to which I have not
seen ANY satisfactory answer that no doubt a person who truly
understands the subject (unlike me) should be able to give. (though I
might have missed some)
Everything that's
]] Jan Gloser
1) I think some valid questions have been raised to which I have not seen
ANY satisfactory answer that no doubt a person who truly understands the
subject (unlike me) should be able to give. (though I might have missed
some)
I'm not sure what those are, but I merely skimmed
On 03/30/2014 02:51 AM, Jan Gloser wrote:
Otherwise if you just personally disagree with the design of systemd and
can't describe such a scenario, why not just migrate to Gentoo or BSD?
This has been said a 100 times...
There's no need to migrate away. systemd is not (and will not be)
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 11:38:40AM -0500, Kevin Toppins wrote:
On 26 March 2014 10:13, Cameron Norman camerontnor...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
That is pretty much impossible, according to the developers of the logind
API and its single implementation. Perhaps a subset of the logind API for
El Fri, 28 de Mar 2014 a las 1:19 AM, Olav Vitters o...@vitters.nl
escribió:
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 11:38:40AM -0500, Kevin Toppins wrote:
On 26 March 2014 10:13, Cameron Norman camerontnor...@gmail.com
wrote:
[...]
That is pretty much impossible, according to the developers of
the
On 28 Mar 2014 03:40, Olav Vitters wrote:
[...]
I can tell you right now, it is *vastly more difficult* to try to
adapt programs modified to work with systemd in their current state,
than it is to *revert* those programs to their pre-systemd state.
You're so certain while so utterly wrong
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 11:08:54AM -0500, Kevin Toppins wrote:
On 28 Mar 2014 03:40, Olav Vitters wrote:
[...]
I can tell you right now, it is *vastly more difficult* to try to
adapt programs modified to work with systemd in their current state,
than it is to *revert* those programs to
Quoting Cameron Norman (camerontnor...@gmail.com):
El Wed, 26 de Mar 2014 a las 9:03 PM, gustavo panizzo gfa
g...@zumbi.com.ar escribió:
On 03/26/2014 11:49 PM, Cameron Norman wrote:
I wonder if dbus activation
could be used to accomplish this. Of course, then one would not
be able
to put
On 26 Mar 2014 12:30, Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
[...]
But here is the vastly oversimplified technical argument...
To the point of being neither technical nor valid.
(Which admittedly was never in doubt even before I started reading.)
What do you consider technical?
Vastly
On 03/25/2014 12:42 AM, Kevin Toppins wrote:
Sorry for the intrusion into your world, but this *needed* to be said,
and needed to be said on *this* specific list.
Not correct. We didn't need another iteration of such a post.
- the *future* of linux actually *does* depend on what - you - *do*
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 3:40 AM, Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote:
On 03/25/2014 12:42 AM, Kevin Toppins wrote:
Writing an independent, init system agnostic, logind API compatible
daemon would be another good thing to do.
That is pretty much impossible, according to the developers of the
On 26 March 2014 05:40, Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote:
[...]
If you want thing to move on, stop posting useless messages, and start
working on alternatives. For example, helping adding more features to
OpenRC would certainly help a way more than this post.
I am going to have to
On 26 March 2014 10:13, Cameron Norman camerontnor...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
That is pretty much impossible, according to the developers of the logind
API and its single implementation. Perhaps a subset of the logind API for
use by desktop environments / compositors would be more useful in this
On 26/03/14 17:13, Kevin Toppins wrote:
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on my post being useless.
With the hope of contributing constructive criticism, I'll answer that.
As far as the systemd vs. upstart discussion, I was leaning in upstart
(more precisely, against systemd).
On 26 March 2014 13:42, Shachar Shemesh shac...@debian.org wrote:
[...]
As far as the systemd vs. upstart discussion, I was leaning in upstart (more
precisely, against systemd). As such, your email was very interesting to me.
Unfortunately, it was unreadable. You said you'll start with
Excerpts from Kevin Toppins's message of 2014-03-26 13:00:22 -0700:
On 26 March 2014 13:42, Shachar Shemesh shac...@debian.org wrote:
[...]
As far as the systemd vs. upstart discussion, I was leaning in upstart (more
precisely, against systemd). As such, your email was very interesting to
Hi,
Kevin Toppins:
But here is the vastly oversimplified technical argument...
To the point of being neither technical nor valid.
(Which admittedly was never in doubt even before I started reading.)
I think you will confirm that neither you, nor I, nor the guy who came
up with the original
On 03/26/2014 07:40 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
If you want thing to move on, stop posting useless messages, and start
working on alternatives. For example, helping adding more features to
OpenRC would certainly help a way more than this post.
going offtopic here, do you know if there is any
El Wed, 26 de Mar 2014 a las 7:07 PM, gustavo panizzo gfa
g...@zumbi.com.ar escribió:
On 03/26/2014 07:40 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
If you want thing to move on, stop posting useless messages, and
start
working on alternatives. For example, helping adding more features
to
OpenRC would
On 03/26/2014 11:49 PM, Cameron Norman wrote:
El Wed, 26 de Mar 2014 a las 7:07 PM, gustavo panizzo gfa
g...@zumbi.com.ar escribió:
On 03/26/2014 07:40 AM, Thomas Goirand wrote:
If you want thing to move on, stop posting useless messages, and
start working on alternatives. For
El Wed, 26 de Mar 2014 a las 9:03 PM, gustavo panizzo gfa
g...@zumbi.com.ar escribió:
On 03/26/2014 11:49 PM, Cameron Norman wrote:
I wonder if dbus activation
could be used to accomplish this. Of course, then one would not be
able
to put (in the case of Upstart) the socket bridge, dbus
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014, Kevin Toppins wrote:
- Debian needs to *cut all ties* to systemd
[…]
- revert every program systemd took over to its pre-systemd state
- cut your losses while you still can technically achieve a reversion
Seconded (especially the last bullet point).
bye,
On 24/03/2014 17:42, Kevin Toppins wrote:
To all debian developers:
[snip]
-Kev
Lots of asterisks won't make a point.
federico
--
Federico Di Gregorio federico.digrego...@dndg.it
Di Nunzio Di Gregorio srl http://dndg.it
If nobody
On 25 March 2014 08:54, Federico Di Gregorio f...@dndg.it wrote:
[...]
Lots of asterisks won't make a point.
The asterisks are there to specifically focus your attention on those words.
Because - I find that if I don't use them - people tend to misread
what I write (or more so at least)
-Kev
I was very proud of my fellow colleagues for not feeding the troll a
full 24 hours later. Thanks for breaking the record :(
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Archive:
On 25/03/2014 16:46, Kevin Toppins wrote:
On 25 March 2014 08:54, Federico Di Gregorio f...@dndg.it wrote:
[...]
Lots of asterisks won't make a point.
The asterisks are there to specifically focus your attention on those words.
Because - I find that if I don't use them - people tend to
On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 04:15:25PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
I was very proud of my fellow colleagues for not feeding the troll a
full 24 hours later. Thanks for breaking the record :(
I agree - I even *told* people on #-devel to not even - bother
replying - since I figured no one would
On 25 March 2014 11:25, William Unruh un...@physics.ubc.ca wrote:
[...]
And if they are there, together with all the boldfacing, people tend to
think that you are a complete kook. So you makes your choices...
Okay, my apologies.
I am not very experienced with lists and the expectations that
On 25 Mar 11:36, Kevin Toppins wrote:
On 25 March 2014 11:25, William Unruh un...@physics.ubc.ca wrote:
[...]
And if they are there, together with all the boldfacing, people tend to
think that you are a complete kook. So you makes your choices...
Okay, my apologies.
I am not very
On Tue, 2014-03-25 at 16:15, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
I was very proud of my fellow colleagues for not feeding the troll a
full 24 hours later. Thanks for breaking the record :(
I had a hope that the no one will answer OP. :(
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On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:40:02 AM UTC-5, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
I was very proud of my fellow colleagues for not feeding the troll a
full 24 hours later. Thanks for breaking the record :(
Jonathan we've been through this before.
-
On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 01:31:44PM -0500, Kevin Toppins wrote:
Jonathan we've been through this before.
- https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00565.html
- https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/11/msg00604.html
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. This is not quite
El Mon, 24 de Mar 2014 a las 9:42 AM, Kevin Toppins
kevin.topp...@gmail.com escribió:
To all debian developers:
- systemd is *fundamentally incompatible* with linux
Now, I realize that's a bold claim, but if you are up for some
reading, I will prove it.
I'll bite.
I even went to
El Tue, 25 de Mar 2014 a las 3:11 PM, Cameron Norman
camerontnor...@gmail.com escribió:
See the documentation for the following if they are not familiar to
you:
* dependencies: Wants/WantedBy, Requires/RequiredBy (in
man::systemd.unit)
* states: ConditionFileExists, ConditionFileExecutable,
previously on this list Brett Parker contributed:
Maybe you should do some more investigation, get some better clue of
what you're talking about, and come back with a better, more thought
out, set of arguments that actually have merit.
Right, by arguing on the basis of the definition of Linux
To all debian developers:
- systemd is *fundamentally incompatible* with linux
Now, I realize that's a bold claim, but if you are up for some reading, I
will prove it.
First - a little history just to put this into a context that's easier to
follow
Over a year ago (Nov 2012), I tried to
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