Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 11:17:46AM -0300, Fabricio Cannini wrote: --- Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: Am 2004-12-07 10:39:42, schrieb Fabricio Cannini: Me wonders if simply NOT installing hot-babe wouldn't fix this. IMO Seems to be the easiest solution. In theory ! In many countries it is illegal to have some stuff on CD or other Media. Don't put it on the CD!! And WHO stores the CD-Images ? Servers located on coutries that do not have such prohibitions would store these packages. I'm talking about NOT putting such packages in the official medias (CDs, .iso, etc). I don't think this is a very useful compromise. If a package is going to be included in the Debian archive, it should also be included in the official Debian CD sets. I think it's a good idea to provide enough metadata in the archive to let people build localized CD sets that are legal in their jurisdiction, but I don't think we should be excluding any Debian packages from official CD sets -- if there are reasons that we can't distribute a package in main as part of our CD images, we shouldn't be distributing it from the mirrors either. ObRC: #245810 -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Where is your freedom of speech ? (Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor)
Warniong : I'm not an Ordained Debian Developper (TM) : my words are just those of a Debian User, worried by this new upsurge of hair splitting, US smelling madness. Hi again, perhaps to bring down the conversation to something more constructive, I think we should base decision to have something or not in Debian: 1. _NOT_ on personal belief (else we would probably end with nothing). 2. _NOT_ on local laws (same comment). Agreed so far. 3. does it have some technical interest? (technical documentation OK, technical tool to show/use the Bible is OK, Bible in HTML format is probably _not_ OK, Gutenberg can do it better). NOT fully agreed : while I don't think that political|religious|sexual propaganda belongs to Debian (it's an operating system and environment), I feel I'm not entitled to ask for pulling it out (freedom of speech, remember ? Fortunately, that entails freedom of not hearing). After all, some people might argue that they can't function properly without their weekly|daily|hourly biblical fix, and who am I to tell them no ? 4. does it respect basic democratic values? NOT agreed : freedom of speech (which IS a democratic value, maybe THE democratic value..) implies ALSO feedom to speak against democracy (and ENTAILS freedom to speak FOR democracy. That's debate vs censorship, guys !). See Voltaire for further explanations. 5. does it respect other people's belief and personallity? NOT agreed ! Some people's belief and|or values may be, in my not so humble opinion, a serious impediment to fundamental rights and freedoms ; I want to be free to tell why and how much I despise such beliefs and values (freedom of speech again, guys !). Personally, I find Bellamy's pictures quite artistic and not aggressive, but I would say, Women on the list should decide on this one (criteria 5). Bloody NOT agreed : I do not agree to give censor's scissors to ANYONE, male or female. The so-called political correctness is, IMHO, a bigotry as bad as or worse than any other. Note of interest : this kind of issues comes up regularly on Debian lists. May I point out that this way of making big issues of sex-(semi-)related points seems to emanate mainly from citizens of one country where the dominant opinion seems to be that morals is something people wear about 8 inches below their navels ? Debian might fare much better if its members who happen to be citizens of the U f*ck*ng S of A rememeber sometimes that they are *not* center and moral arbiter of the world... The same can be told of (semi-) legal concerns, which have no relevance outside the US : insisting that Debian should cater to any possible foolish demands of an US attorney|sycophant is at best provincialism, at worst parochialism. Sincerely, Emmanuel Charpentier PS : I'm not on the list, and not following it on a regular basis. Should you want to react, please Cc me... EC
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 12:00:14AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 11:17:46AM -0300, Fabricio Cannini wrote: --- Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: Am 2004-12-07 10:39:42, schrieb Fabricio Cannini: Me wonders if simply NOT installing hot-babe wouldn't fix this. IMO Seems to be the easiest solution. In theory ! In many countries it is illegal to have some stuff on CD or other Media. Don't put it on the CD!! And WHO stores the CD-Images ? Servers located on coutries that do not have such prohibitions would store these packages. I'm talking about NOT putting such packages in the official medias (CDs, .iso, etc). I don't think this is a very useful compromise. If a package is going to be included in the Debian archive, it should also be included in the official Debian CD sets. I think it's a good idea to provide enough metadata in the archive to let people build localized CD sets that are legal in their jurisdiction, but I don't think we should be excluding any Debian packages from official CD sets -- if there are reasons that we can't distribute a package in main as part of our CD images, we shouldn't be distributing it from the mirrors either. What about non-US? If some packages can be distributed from only some mirrors outside US, why shouldn't some packages be distributed only from some countries where they are legal to be distributed? Or are there only two countries for Debian? US (main) and non-US? Regards, Thadeu Cascardo. ObRC: #245810 -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 09:31 -0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 12:00:14AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 11:17:46AM -0300, Fabricio Cannini wrote: --- Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: Am 2004-12-07 10:39:42, schrieb Fabricio Cannini: [snip] What about non-US? If some packages can be distributed from only some mirrors outside US, why shouldn't some packages be distributed only from some countries where they are legal to be distributed? Or are there only two countries for Debian? US (main) and non-US? The US isn't the only country that has various forms of content restrictions. Thus, non-US isn't sufficient. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Peace is not only better than war, but infinitely more arduous. George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Where is your freedom of speech ? (Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor)
On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 09:29:55AM +0100, Emmanuel Charpentier wrote: Debian might fare much better if its members who happen to be citizens of the U f*ck*ng S of A rememeber sometimes that they are *not* center and moral arbiter of the world... The same can be told of (semi-) legal concerns, which have no relevance outside the US : insisting that Debian should cater to any possible foolish demands of an US attorney|sycophant is at best provincialism, at worst parochialism. Rampant USA bashing is not likely to help your cause, and is in fact far more likely to piss off a large number of people who might otherwise be inclined to listen to what you have to say. As it is, you just come off sounding like a total jerk. Please read the RTFThread and come back when you realize that a good chunk of the debate is centered around the legality of distributing content to places like Iran. - David Nusinow ObRC: #280901
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
--- Everton da Silva Marques [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 06:12:21PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2004-12-01 13:16:11, schrieb Fernanda Giroleti Weiden: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. And I was thinking, I am alone... It's VERY oppressive to force hot-babe out of Debian because of personal feelings about nudity. It's pure anti-speech insanity leading the way to socialism. Me wonders if simply NOT installing hot-babe wouldn't fix this. IMO Seems to be the easiest solution. Don't put it on the CD!! Do you want this pkg?? apt-get it!! __ Converse com seus amigos em tempo real com o Yahoo! Messenger http://br.download.yahoo.com/messenger/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Am 2004-12-07 10:39:42, schrieb Fabricio Cannini: Me wonders if simply NOT installing hot-babe wouldn't fix this. IMO Seems to be the easiest solution. In theory ! In many countries it is illegal to have some stuff on CD or other Media. Don't put it on the CD!! And WHO stores the CD-Images ? Do you want this pkg?? apt-get it!! Right... But I prefet to have difficult packages on a seperated Server. Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
--- Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: Am 2004-12-07 10:39:42, schrieb Fabricio Cannini: Me wonders if simply NOT installing hot-babe wouldn't fix this. IMO Seems to be the easiest solution. In theory ! In many countries it is illegal to have some stuff on CD or other Media. Don't put it on the CD!! And WHO stores the CD-Images ? Servers located on coutries that do not have such prohibitions would store these packages. I'm talking about NOT putting such packages in the official medias (CDs, .iso, etc). Do you want this pkg?? apt-get it!! Right... But I prefet to have difficult packages on a seperated Server. Me too (that's what i said above). I've already seen long, enduring, die-hard threads, but not like this one. Best to you. ___ Yahoo! Mail - Agora com 250MB de espaço gratuito. Abra uma conta agora! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Am 2004-12-07 11:17:46, schrieb Fabricio Cannini: I've already seen long, enduring, die-hard threads, but not like this one. I was soe day offline, and do not know, how many messages this thread have but I think more then 600. And in how many days... Best to you. Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
5.12.2004 pisze William Ballard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:28:14PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we They have had quite a few major busts of child pornographers in Europe and also Asia. Europe doesn't tolerate *everything*. But it tolerates poorly-drawn cartoons without pornographic content. [Which is the case of the original hot-babe pictures - they are so poorly drawn, that they're hardly erotic.] It looks like some discutants here cannot just tolerate such atrocities and found necessary to compel Debian to ban such a disgusting machismo. Or such a disgusting child-spoiling nudity. I'd like to dedicate http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2004112605020534 to them. The interesting part is, how easily some of us resort to the plain, old censorship in the name of greater good. And how independent it is from being conservative or liberal [in the original meaning of these words]. sincerely yours, Jubal -- [ Miros/law L Baran, baran-at-knm-org-pl, neg IQ, cert AI ] [ 0101010 is ] [ BOF2510053411, makabra.knm.org.pl/~baran/, alchemy pany ] [ The Answer ] Weiner's Law of Libraries: There are no answers, only cross references.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 05:55:18 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Personal taste? No. Opinion about what the law states? Yes. Mere opinions about the law by laymen carry little weight. Do you have any concrete evidence that actually proves (rather than demolishes) your argument? manoj -- I got rid of my husband. The cat was allergic. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:49:08 -0500, William Ballard [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:28:14PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we They have had quite a few major busts of child pornographers in Europe and also Asia. Europe doesn't tolerate *everything*. Kinda irrelevant. I don't see them shutting down the Louvre. manoj -- QOTD: What I like most about myself is that I'm so understanding when I mess things up. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 18:28:14 -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, 05 Dec 2004, Nick Sillik wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. This is pointless. Let's just have hot-babe with as much nudity/porn/whatever as the maintainer might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we should also move anything else that the USA law could classify as a reason to bust Debian/SPI people in jail, to non-us. There isn't much of it, I hope. Umm, only if it is indeed deemed to be illegal. So far, there has been just FUD about this issue. I am not sure that artistic work qualifies as porn, which seems to be the case here. manoj -- Democrats give their worn-out clothes to those less fortunate. Republicans wear theirs. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 06:46 +0100, Miros/law Baran wrote: 5.12.2004 pisze William Ballard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:28:14PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: [snip] The interesting part is, how easily some of us resort to the plain, old censorship in the name of greater good. And how independent it is from being conservative or liberal [in the original meaning of these words]. Censorship is trying to get the upstream website taken down. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. A peace that depends on fear is nothing but a suppressed war. Henry Van Dyke signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:27 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:49:08 -0500, William Ballard [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:28:14PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we They have had quite a few major busts of child pornographers in Europe and also Asia. Europe doesn't tolerate *everything*. Kinda irrelevant. I don't see them shutting down the Louvre. Because the paintings/statues in the Louvre are considered bona fide works of art, having serious literary, artistic, educational or scientific value. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. 'He insulted me, he cheated me, he beat me, he robbed me' -- those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace. Buddha signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:48:47 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:27 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:49:08 -0500, William Ballard [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:28:14PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we They have had quite a few major busts of child pornographers in Europe and also Asia. Europe doesn't tolerate *everything*. Kinda irrelevant. I don't see them shutting down the Louvre. Because the paintings/statues in the Louvre are considered bona fide works of art, having serious literary, artistic, educational or scientific value. And Bruno Bellamy paintings are so very obviously not art, eh? And you are who, the culture police? manoj -- Computers can figure out all kinds of problems, except the things in the world that just don't add up. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:26:17AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm, only if it is indeed deemed to be illegal. So far, there has been just FUD about this issue. I am not sure that artistic work qualifies as porn, which seems to be the case here. Artistic or not, the pictures in hot-babe are *not* porn. Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 01:06 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:48:47 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:27 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:49:08 -0500, William Ballard [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:28:14PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: [snip] Kinda irrelevant. I don't see them shutting down the Louvre. Because the paintings/statues in the Louvre are considered bona fide works of art, having serious literary, artistic, educational or scientific value. And Bruno Bellamy paintings are so very obviously not art, eh? And you are who, the culture police? Yes, as a matter of fact, I am. I'd give you my badge number, but then I'd have to kill you, because it's Ultra Super Top Secret, and only certain members of the Dept Of Homeland Security, the Republican Party and Moral Majority are supposed to know that I am, in fact, a member of The Culture Police. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge where there is no river. Nikita Krushchev signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 01:24:49PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote: shrug. At least in .au we have some legislation to protect minority groups but we're not living in a totalitarian PC clampdown. Sounds irrelevant. There's a big difference between 'protect minority groups' (from what?) and 'compel everybody to behave in a manner approved of by minority groups'. The latter is often designed to achieve the former. So let me say then that we have some legislation in .au that in certain contexts compels people to behave in a manner approved of by minority groups, and yet we're not living in a totalitarian PC clampdown. Yet. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 04:13:54PM +0900, Mike Hommey wrote: On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:26:17AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm, only if it is indeed deemed to be illegal. So far, there has been just FUD about this issue. I am not sure that artistic work qualifies as porn, which seems to be the case here. Artistic or not, the pictures in hot-babe are *not* porn. To quote Manoj, And you are who, the culture police? I think it's a matter of opinion. I agree with you, but state your opinion as such rather than fact please. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 12:42:05AM +1100, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 04:13:54PM +0900, Mike Hommey wrote: On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:26:17AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm, only if it is indeed deemed to be illegal. So far, there has been just FUD about this issue. I am not sure that artistic work qualifies as porn, which seems to be the case here. Artistic or not, the pictures in hot-babe are *not* porn. To quote Manoj, And you are who, the culture police? I think it's a matter of opinion. I agree with you, but state your opinion as such rather than fact please. Give me *one* authoritative definition of pornography that applies to this picture. Until you give me one, I'll consider all the ones I've seen so far to be the accurate ones, and none of them say these pictures are pornography. Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Give me *one* authoritative definition of pornography that applies to this picture. Until you give me one, I'll consider all the ones I've seen so far to be the accurate ones, and none of them say these pictures are pornography. It's been said that pornography is other people's erotism. Pornography is what is forbidden to show/do in public, and its definition may vary from one country to another or according to context. For instance you surely would be titilliated by hot-babe if you had been grown in an conservative environnement, whether sikh, wasp or inquisitorist. However, I see two kind of pronography : -the one whose purpose is only to show a material condemned by law, in order to satisfy the frustrations that prohibitive laws generate. It is by nature commercial and illegal (or the law may build a niche for it to exist). -the one that is solely comdemned by law because it shows what one musn't show, but its first purpose was not to show a condemned material, the transgression is accidental. To protect the latter kind is to protect the freedom of knowledge. -- Be kind, cc: me :-)
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Em Dom, 2004-12-05 s 02:53 +, Andrew Suffield escreveu: I can't see why. The whole free software concept brings an idea of giving equal oportunities to everyone. How is it equal opportunities to say: You can't do that unless you also find a woman who's willing to do it as well? That's exactly what I was trying to say: it is not ... That does not solve the problem, but makes it pretty easy to solve. The problem doesn't exist. There is no absence of opportunity here. There is only absence of action from some parties. ... and this is quite close to what I think. What I mean is: hot-babe is still male-oriented, because no one stepped up to do the female-oriented counter-part. If somebody was saying We can have pictures of naked girls in the archive, but not naked men then you *might* have a valid point. But they aren't. Exactly. What I was trying to demonstrate is sexism would live in not giving a chance for anyone (not only women, why not gay people, for example, or straight man who do appreciate the human body regardless of gender, as I do?) to have their own sexual orientation or esthetics satisfied. My point, now turning the discussion to the question of offensiveness is that we should not try to impose moral values in a community that is so diverse in cultures and nationalities... I somewhat agree with Manoj, though I don't know how to draw the legality line, as I'm not satisfied with using USA as the standard. That's what we have for now, though, we need to think about alternatives. Just because you elect not to engage in an action doesn't mean you can claim that nobody else should engage in that action. Not even under some misguided notion of equality. Just to finish the email... yes, you cannot force people into taking actions, even more in a volunteer organization. This does not mean that some universal values should not be defended and fostered in the community. Values like freedom and equality. See ya, sorry for the delay, I was on the beach =D -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha http://people.debian.org/~kov Debian: http://www.debian.org * http://www.debian-br.org
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. (And quite stunningly failing to realise that objecting to this package in this manner is equally offensive in the other direction, and probably more so. Please humour me and spell it out for me in small words. I am presumably missing something stunningly obvious. b.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:34:36PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. (And quite stunningly failing to realise that objecting to this package in this manner is equally offensive in the other direction, and probably more so. Please humour me and spell it out for me in small words. I am presumably missing something stunningly obvious. I find the notion of introducing censorship in order to not 'hurt their feelings' to be morally repugnant. It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 10:53:56PM -0200, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: What I think should be done is pictures of a man should be added to the package *or*, as someone else suggested, add the picture of a flower blooming A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. Paul
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. Paul I was thinking that we could use pictures of the Eiffel Tower or Washington Monument in various stages of construction. Nick
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004, Nick Sillik wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. This is pointless. Let's just have hot-babe with as much nudity/porn/whatever as the maintainer might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we should also move anything else that the USA law could classify as a reason to bust Debian/SPI people in jail, to non-us. There isn't much of it, I hope. Other than that, we could (as someone else suggested) have jigdo lists per-country, removing files that are unlawful or really, really a bad idea for that country. Keeping such a database is not too painful, as long as we do not even bother with it unless someone of such a country shows up to provide us with a full list of offending packages, along with the legal references that cause each and every package in the list to be removed. That database would be public, and it would be useful for other projects as well. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:28:14PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we They have had quite a few major busts of child pornographers in Europe and also Asia. Europe doesn't tolerate *everything*. Also as some have said about Germany and first-person-shooters.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
I find the notion of introducing censorship in order to not 'hurt their feelings' to be morally repugnant. Yes yes, I understand why you don't like it. What I wanted was an explanation of why objecting to this package was probably _more_ offensive than proposing it. (Bearing in mind that in this context, censorship simply means not shipping with debian, as opposed to attempting to deny access altogether.) It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. Sounds to me like your problem is not so much with the objection, but with its expected implementation. b.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 13:16 -0500, Nick Sillik wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. Paul I was thinking that we could use pictures of the Eiffel Tower or Washington Monument in various stages of construction. skinnable images is the best idea in this situation. That way, whatever pictures you want, you can have. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Anyone who thinks that religion is Sooo Eeevil should remember: - The number of Soviet citizens that the religion is the opiate of the masses Soviets killed or let starve is between 20M and 60M. - The number of Chinese killed or allowed to starve by the Chinese Communists is estimated to be as many as 66M. Now *that* is True Evil. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 08:52:59AM +1100, Ben Burton wrote: I find the notion of introducing censorship in order to not 'hurt their feelings' to be morally repugnant. Yes yes, I understand why you don't like it. What I wanted was an explanation of why objecting to this package was probably _more_ offensive than proposing it. Oh no, there's the possibility that somebody else might look at some low quality porn versus Other people are actively forcing their beliefs onto us. Isn't it obvious? (Bearing in mind that in this context, censorship simply means not shipping with debian, as opposed to attempting to deny access altogether.) That's what censorship means in every context, under any practical definition. It's impossible to deny access altogether to anything. It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. Sounds to me like your problem is not so much with the objection, but with its expected implementation. There's only one way this ever goes. Any student of history should be familiar with how this plays out. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Oh no, there's the possibility that somebody else might look at some low quality porn versus Other people are actively forcing their beliefs onto us. Isn't it obvious? ... That's what censorship means in every context, under any practical definition. It's impossible to deny access altogether to anything. Hmm? I didn't think people were trying to restrict access -- at least I presume nobody is under the delusion that keeping hot-babe out of debian would make it any more difficult to access such material. There are other reasons for choosing not to ship a package with a distribution. It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. Sounds to me like your problem is not so much with the objection, but with its expected implementation. There's only one way this ever goes. Any student of history should be familiar with how this plays out. shrug. At least in .au we have some legislation to protect minority groups but we're not living in a totalitarian PC clampdown. b.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:44:36PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote: It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. Sounds to me like your problem is not so much with the objection, but with its expected implementation. There's only one way this ever goes. Any student of history should be familiar with how this plays out. shrug. At least in .au we have some legislation to protect minority groups but we're not living in a totalitarian PC clampdown. Sounds irrelevant. There's a big difference between 'protect minority groups' (from what?) and 'compel everybody to behave in a manner approved of by minority groups'. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
shrug. At least in .au we have some legislation to protect minority groups but we're not living in a totalitarian PC clampdown. Sounds irrelevant. There's a big difference between 'protect minority groups' (from what?) and 'compel everybody to behave in a manner approved of by minority groups'. The latter is often designed to achieve the former. So let me say then that we have some legislation in .au that in certain contexts compels people to behave in a manner approved of by minority groups, and yet we're not living in a totalitarian PC clampdown. Sure, it's a far cry from restricting what you can say in a classroom or workplace to controlling your every action. But then again, it's a far cry from keeping a package out of debian to controlling your every action. b.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:38:30PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 13:16 -0500, Nick Sillik wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. I was thinking that we could use pictures of the Eiffel Tower or Washington Monument in various stages of construction. skinnable images is the best idea in this situation. That way, whatever pictures you want, you can have. Isn't the skin the problem? -- Paul TBBle Hampson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7th year CompSci/Asian Studies student, ANU Shorter .sig for a more eco-friendly paperless office. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 14:34 +1100, Paul Hampson wrote: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:38:30PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 13:16 -0500, Nick Sillik wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. I was thinking that we could use pictures of the Eiffel Tower or Washington Monument in various stages of construction. skinnable images is the best idea in this situation. That way, whatever pictures you want, you can have. Isn't the skin the problem? Yes. It's the skin (pun intended), not the app, that's the possible problem. The app itself it a great/fun idea. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. NAMBLA - Nat'l Assoc of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes (Yes, it's a South Park reference.) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Hi, Am Freitag, den 03.12.2004, 22:55 -0600 schrieb Ron Johnson: On Sat, 2004-12-04 at 00:55 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: On Thursday 02 December 2004 19:21, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We could have ftp.debian.XX (where XX is the country code) be a cname pointing to a server that only has packages that match the laws and standards of the country in question. Someone in China, Iran, or the US can download from ftp.debian.nl at their own risk... That's a good idea. Someone else suggested using jigdo to customize CDs. That might have been me. I also suggested using DebTags as the categorizing mechanism for that. (trying to get the discussion back to something productive) regards, Joachim -- Joachim nomeata Breitner Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ# 74513189 | GPG-Keyid: 4743206C JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://people.debian.org/~nomeata
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sat, 2004-12-04 at 12:07 +0100, Joachim Breitner wrote: Hi, Am Freitag, den 03.12.2004, 22:55 -0600 schrieb Ron Johnson: On Sat, 2004-12-04 at 00:55 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: On Thursday 02 December 2004 19:21, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We could have ftp.debian.XX (where XX is the country code) be a cname pointing to a server that only has packages that match the laws and standards of the country in question. Someone in China, Iran, or the US can download from ftp.debian.nl at their own risk... That's a good idea. Someone else suggested using jigdo to customize CDs. That might have been me. It was Cesar Martinez Izquierdo. I also suggested using DebTags as the categorizing mechanism for that. Maybe the 2 could be used in concert? Can jigdo be told, grab everything except packages that have a certain tag? (trying to get the discussion back to something productive) Silly man! -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. An economist is a man who states the obvious in terms of the incomprehensible. Alfred A. Knopf signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Hi, Am Samstag, den 04.12.2004, 05:49 -0600 schrieb Ron Johnson: That might have been me. It was Cesar Martinez Izquierdo. Ok, so it was _also_ me :-) I also suggested using DebTags as the categorizing mechanism for that. Maybe the 2 could be used in concert? Can jigdo be told, grab everything except packages that have a certain tag? That's what I meant. See [EMAIL PROTECTED], if you want. (trying to get the discussion back to something productive) Silly man! :-) Joachim -- Joachim nomeata Breitner Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ# 74513189 | GPG-Keyid: 4743206C JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://people.debian.org/~nomeata
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 10:48 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:31:43 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:32:26AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:03:59 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You are quite right. We cannot fight all battles for everyone. Let's make an operating system. And stop trying to censor data and make sure our users are only exposed to RightThink. We should stop being the morL guardians of the free world, and let licenses, and what is legal to distribute, govern what goes in Debian. And there you go with the red herring. It is not a red herring. It is all subjective -- is it legal? or not? Is it porn? or not? Is it art? or not? Is it useful? or not? Personal taste and opinions are leading the charge against this package. Personal taste? No. Opinion about what the law states? Yes. Be that as it may, it has been suggested that jigdo could be used to make region-specific disks, and that sounds like a good idea to me. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. The main reason that M$ gets bashed is that they persist in writing bad code, on top of bad code As many have said, there is NO PERFECT OS. The better OS though, IMHO, is the one that will openly deal with issues, both major, and minor. Microsoft still needs a lot of work in this area. http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/202/comment/24104#MSG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sat, Dec 04, 2004 at 05:49:28AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: I also suggested using DebTags as the categorizing mechanism for that. Maybe the 2 could be used in concert? Uhm... I would like to keep subjective tags outside of the central debtags repository, delegating such categorization to Custom Debian Distributionss, who have better knowledge of their target. Can jigdo be told, grab everything except packages that have a certain tag? Not afaik, but it's easy to do. Some examples: debtags grep culture::italian | cut -d: -f1 lists the names of all packages that provide italian-specific things. debtags grep !culture::* || culture::italian | cut -d: -f1 lists the names of all packages except the ones which provide language-specific support NOT for italians. debtags grep admin::backup ! implemented-in::perl can make someone from a previous thread happy. debtags tagsearch substring searches the tag vocabulary. As you can see, using debtags to get package lists is easy, and integrating its results in jigdo shoudln't be too hard. If you do report a wishlist bug to jigdo, please X-Debbugs-Cc me so that I can offer help (I prefer not to report the bug myself because I have never used jigdo). Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Em Qui, 2004-12-02 s 23:57 -0800, Erik Steffl escreveu: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. I believe this is really a problem, but it is a solvable problem. The package is sexist the way it is, as it does not consider the women involved with Debian in its default configuration. What I think should be done is pictures of a man should be added to the package *or*, as someone else suggested, add the picture of a flower blooming or something instead and point the 'themes' site in the readme. Now, the package is not sexist in that it will not allow that to happen, so anyone interested in giving women a choice should simply draw the pictures and provide a patch. I even think that it would be cool that women themselves would do that, because they'll probably have more taste than I do for that (even though I do admire the human body, be it masculine or feminine -- I've decided my own taste is quite distant from the average woman-taste for this). Packages can hurts feelings? It's your big conclusion about it? Don't matters for you the obvious detail about gender equality? requiring gender equality is obviosly pretty damn sexist. I can't see why. The whole free software concept brings an idea of giving equal oportunities to everyone. Fortunately, as I said, the code is available, and the equal oportunity for adding pictures that taste good for each one actually do exist. That does not solve the problem, but makes it pretty easy to solve. See ya! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gustavo Noronha http://people.debian.org/~kov Debian: http://www.debian.org * http://www.debian-br.org
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. (And quite stunningly failing to realise that objecting to this package in this manner is equally offensive in the other direction, and probably more so. I'm always entertained by the hypocrisy of these people). Packages can hurts feelings? It's your big conclusion about it? Don't matters for you the obvious detail about gender equality? requiring gender equality is obviosly pretty damn sexist. I can't see why. The whole free software concept brings an idea of giving equal oportunities to everyone. How is it equal opportunities to say: You can't do that unless you also find a woman who's willing to do it as well? Fortunately, as I said, the code is available, and the equal oportunity for adding pictures that taste good for each one actually do exist. That does not solve the problem, but makes it pretty easy to solve. The problem doesn't exist. There is no absence of opportunity here. There is only absence of action from some parties. Just because you elect not to engage in an action doesn't mean you can claim that nobody else should engage in that action. Not even under some misguided notion of equality. If somebody was saying We can have pictures of naked girls in the archive, but not naked men then you *might* have a valid point. But they aren't. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Fernanda Giroleti Weiden wrote: Em Qui, 2004-12-02 s 05:45, Manoj Srivastava escreveu: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. Packages can hurts feelings? It's your big conclusion about it? Don't matters for you the obvious detail about gender equality? requiring gender equality is obviosly pretty damn sexist. Are you thinking to choose to be catholic is the same choice I did when I was born? not very relevant but pretty much yes. can you change it? erik
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Will Newton, on 2004-12-02, 19:57, you wrote: On Thursday 02 Dec 2004 07:35, Neil McGovern wrote: Ok, Yes, if push comes to shove, I'll be happy to stand trial for the inclusion of hot-babe in main. I can't see how that choice is yours to make. Seen his name? SCNR, Joerg -- Joerg joergland Wendland | http://www.wendlandnet.de/joerg/ GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Am 2004-12-02 14:48:20, schrieb Adam Majer: A significant number of packages in Debian are not integral to Debian. Generaly I am using Debian/WOODY and I have found 8 packages which may be difficult. One of them is funny-manpages. I do not know about the other 6000 Packages which are more in SID. Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 20:00, Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The internet community that Debian is apart of would consider this fairly tame, considering what a mistyped search engine address seems to pop up on the screen. A few years ago I visited a sex museum in Amsterdam. I went into the back room with all the warnings about no responsibility taken for sickness or psychological problems caused by the rough content. I found the contents of that room to be rather tame by Internet standards. It seems to me that the roughest porn on sale and display on the streets of Amsterdam is tame by Internet standards. In fact the majority of porn sold in Amsterdam might not be considered to be porn at all by standards of the Internet community. If you exclude the material that has artistic merit and the material that is tame by Internet standards there is very little porn on sale in Amsterdam. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 23:38, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm. I would like some Raphael budes, yes. and some studies by michelangelo too. Oh, you think that is not porn? I think calling the hot-babe package and images 'art' is a bit farfetched. Do you consider pictures by the same artist of characters that have more clothing to be art? If so do you believe that less clothing makes art suddenly cease being art? Why can't art be pornographic and porn be artistic anyway? -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 19:21, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for violent games religion, the question *does* need to be asked: how far will D-Ds bend their mostly libertarian/Leftist views in order to ensure that Debian *disks* can be possessed in as much of the world as possible? Why do our views need to be bent? There are only just over 200 countries listed in the CIA world fact book, of those countries there are a much smaller number of sets that have legal differences that matter to us. There may be as few as 20-30 different groups of countries if we group by laws that matter to us. We could have ftp.debian.XX (where XX is the country code) be a cname pointing to a server that only has packages that match the laws and standards of the country in question. Someone in China, Iran, or the US can download from ftp.debian.nl at their own risk... -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 04:07:14PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2004-12-02 08:44:34, schrieb David Weinehall: Really, she's 13, and you think it'd do any difference whatsoever to expose her to a pixelled image of a nude woman?! Sheesh. Either you've been shielding her completely (no TV, no advertisments, no magazines, no Internet), or you need a reality update. And if she does not like violence and naked people ? Well, the first shows she's quite tasteful, the second might be a problem during physical education, no? (But I realise you didn't mean it that way). The question is, who would install the package on her computer? She surely wouldn't. She'd probably dodge the pr0n-sites on the Internet too. Why worry? And publicity using half naked people is offensive !!! Sure, I didn't say otherwise. Of course, it depends on what you're doing commercials for. If it's underwear, I can see the point. Then again, the market for underwear is probably not big enough to warrant billboard ads with supermodels; they are rather an excuse for using semi naked surgically modified anorectics to sell everything else the stores have to offer. That's sad, but as long as people keep buying their products, the ads will continue. Worried parents should realise, that if their kids are old enough to administrate a Debian-machine to the level of installing their own She has an IQ enorm and will make her Lycee examen next year. 4 years before the others... I didn't question that, and I'm glad to hear you have such an intelligent daughter. She do not like to see everywhere naked People... It is TOO much ! Exhibiting of naked women is offensiv and disriminating. Even it is a cartoon. I hate mens using women as sexobjects... Objectifying women is indeed degrading, both to women and men. Naked people as such isn't, it's natural and beatiful. Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On 03-Dec-04, 07:52 (CST), Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why can't art be pornographic and porn be artistic anyway? I think the very definition of pornography (in the US, at least) denies this possibility. If it's art, then it's erotic, not pornography. Nitpickers R Us, Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 05:01:57PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Some of the islamic countries like Turkey, Jordania and Morocco Turkey isn't islamic country but secular one, AFAIK.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 Dec 2004 20:48, Adam Majer wrote: China would *appear* to be one, http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/01/28/china.bibles/ http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=28012002-054849-9679r If you follow the links you'll find they refer to a man charged with involvement with an illegal *group* of Christians. AFAIK there is a state sanctioned Christian church in China and I assume they have bibles of some sort. So no, distributing bibles is likely not illegal in China. Do we have any PRC Debian developers? I don't see how that package is integral to Debian anyway. A significant number of packages in Debian are not integral to Debian. I'm not saying throw em all out, just that if we are to make pragmatic decisions about packages we should take that into account. e.g. it is worth us standing up against a law outlawing X windows, but maybe not one that outlaws a minor desktop applet.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 20:20:00 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 17:53 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:45:35 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 17:57 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:38:19 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wednesday 01 Dec 2004 21:30, Manoj Srivastava wrote: There are a number of locations where gambling is illegal, as are all games of chance. That's gambling as in wagering a stake on a game of cards not gambling as in playing cards. Teaching kids to play poker will get you in trouble in quite a few places in Alabama, whether or not there is money on the table. Evidence? Or hearsay? Well, as much evidence as there is that hot-babe is illegal, I would say. I showed you case law. You give me, well, nothing. You showed us case law that demolished your argument, yes. manoj -- I love children. Especially when they cry -- for then someone takes them away. Nancy Mitford Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Friday 03 Dec 2004 09:49, Joerg Wendland wrote: Will Newton, on 2004-12-02, 19:57, you wrote: On Thursday 02 Dec 2004 07:35, Neil McGovern wrote: Ok, Yes, if push comes to shove, I'll be happy to stand trial for the inclusion of hot-babe in main. I can't see how that choice is yours to make. Seen his name? Um? Sorry, I don't see how his name has any relevance.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sat, 2004-12-04 at 00:55 +1100, Russell Coker wrote: On Thursday 02 December 2004 19:21, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for violent games religion, the question *does* need to be asked: how far will D-Ds bend their mostly libertarian/Leftist views in order to ensure that Debian *disks* can be possessed in as much of the world as possible? Why do our views need to be bent? There are only just over 200 countries listed in the CIA world fact book, of those countries there are a much smaller number of sets that have legal differences that matter to us. There may be as few as 20-30 different groups of countries if we group by laws that matter to us. We could have ftp.debian.XX (where XX is the country code) be a cname pointing to a server that only has packages that match the laws and standards of the country in question. Someone in China, Iran, or the US can download from ftp.debian.nl at their own risk... That's a good idea. Someone else suggested using jigdo to customize CDs. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. And I'm hiding in Honduras, I'm a desperate man. Send lawyers, guns and money! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that the best solution to many of the worlds problems would be to provide really cheap laptops and good net access (including satellite net access). The idea is that everyone in the world should be able to download whatever they like (with a few exceptions such as child porn). It's a great idea, and I hope it would work. But I'm wary of such technological determinism. In Europe, cheap printing led to a million presses printing sheets of whatever, with the result that there was a sudden huge broadening in thought, bringing in its wake the Refomation, the Enlightenment, and all kinds of good things to follow. In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact opposite; it provided the ability to mass-produce official versions of classic texts, to centralize the imperial bureaucracy more effectively, and so forth. Thomas
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:57:56PM +0100, Milan P. Stanic wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:17:37PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: However, I'd be *highly* agitated if someone gave my daughter a CD-ROM with *any* nudy cartoons. I'd rather live with this risk than with less freedom. only in a free society can we have this debate. If there exists societies that limit peoples freedom, why should we strive to limit peoples freedom. If the Debian project contains things are forbidden in other societies because they are less free, then we should be the example. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Quoting Fernanda Giroleti Weiden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Hi all, I read all the thread and I noted you are forgeting a main problem about this package. In my point of view: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. Legal nitpicking is another issue, which I personnally do not consider the most important one, indeed. The package is currently sexist, in my opinion. I just hope that saying this loud enough will make the maintainers change their mind. If it does not, well the result will be another sexist thing in free software. I someday wish I had an opportunity to talk of this with Bruno Bellamy, by the way (the artist whose drawings are used in this package). His artwork (and good work) is widely used in the free software community in France and (personal opinion, still) may sometime ring this bell of sexism.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:34:06PM -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [... nonsense ...] Where did you see someone asking for inclusion of child porn ? Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:06 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. We have no need to. We can collectively make reasonable decisions without having to set up a constitional authority to do so. At this point, there is no mechanism by which we can try and exclude packages out of debian which offend one (believe me on this. vi would have been long gone otherwise). The only thing you can do is either convince all the ftp-masters not to process it, or get a GR going. Or convince every DD not to upload the package in question. On this particular question, you are right that we cannot set up a purley objective mechanism to decide a subjective question. What you are missing is that we don't have to. What you are also missing is that we jeopardize our stated goal -- making a quality Free operating system -- by trying to push into it something that so many people find objectionable, exploitative, and illegal. A lot of people find various things in debian objectionable. Others do not. And people finding this package illegal -- I'm sorry, I do not see a clearcut argument that has so convinced me. Indeed, I am pretty sure that the images in this package are not illegal to distribute, either on a website (I have seen several urls posted), not as a package. Feel free to proce (not just offer opinions that I might be) wrong. Perhaps you believe that there is no content that should be illegal. Heck, no. Some content, like kiddie porn, is indeed illegal. I have seen no evidence that the content in question is. That is, however, not the case in much of the world. Child pornography is illegal in much of the world, and I might add rightly so, especially it is so often associated with abuse, exploitation, and even slavery. Wonderful paper tiger you attacked -- and well executed too. If not, then your arguments about it being impossible to set a line are moot. Rubbish. We set the line at illegal content, and by that criteria, this is not illegal to distribute, and hence hot-babe is in. While we are also discussing legality, before advocating the inclusion of pornography in Debian -- which is distributed to adults and minors by all manner of organizations worldwide -- please remember that the organization that holds Debian's legal assets, SPI, is incorporated in the United States and is subjected to United States laws. SPI does not govern Debian's behaviour. I for one do not think that the cause of including porn in Debian is worth it. How many people here are willing to go to jail so that we can include porn in main? Oh, yes, the sky is falling. Are you? Why? Have you any proof the content is illegal to distribute? Seems like it has been up and around for a while. Indeed, material even worse than that is present on web sitres situated in the US. Seems to me that this is mere FUD, trying to prevent expression of artistry you are offended by. If you claim there is no line we can draw, then if we agree with you, there is no reason to keep child porn out of main either. Can we please use some common sense? When you stop creating paper tigers to atrtack, we can talk, manoj -- It's morally wrong to let a sucker keep his money. Canada Bill Jones Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 07:53:41AM +0100, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. Yeah, as some other things in Debian hurt some other people. It's a matter of opinion and inclusion in Debian is not decided on opinion. Period. Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:03:59 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You are quite right. We cannot fight all battles for everyone. Let's make an operating system. And stop trying to censor data and make sure our users are only exposed to RightThink. We should stop being the morL guardians of the free world, and let licenses, and what is legal to distribute, govern what goes in Debian. manoj -- In the future, you're going to get computers as prizes in breakfast cereals. You'll throw them out because your house will be littered with them. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 21:57:20 -0500, Daniel Burrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wednesday 01 December 2004 06:55 pm, Manoj Srivastava wrote: But by this logic, Debian should include every bit of software it can -- if those countries with pesky copyright laws won't let us distribute it there, then we hope that portion of the world gets better in time. Debian will continue to practice freedom. I think this is mostly correct. So, do you think DeCSS should be included in main? Why or why not? Cause it is illegal to distribute in the countries where master and non-us machines live. manoj -- I think there's a world market for about five computers. attr. Thomas J. Watson (Chairman of the Board, IBM), 1943 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:23:21 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 17:55, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:41:30 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:42, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:01:08 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 13:26, Eric Lavarde wrote: Hi again, perhaps to bring down the conversation to something more constructive, I think we should base decision to have something or not in Debian: 1. _NOT_ on personal belief (else we would probably end with nothing). Agreed. 2. _NOT_ on local laws (same comment). Disagreed. If Debian is illegal to distribute to some important section of people in the world, because we include strange noncritical bits of software (hotbabe, the bible), then we have a real problem. In that portion of the world, sure. DSebian should continue to practice freedom, and hope that those portions of the world get better in time. But by this logic, Debian should include every bit of software it can -- if those countries with pesky copyright laws won't let us distribute it there, then we hope that portion of the world gets better in time. Debian will continue to practice freedom. I think this is mostly correct. I think you misunderstood me. I meant *any and all programs*. After all, just because I can't legally exercise my freedoms to modify and distribute Microsoft Word here in the US, that shouldn't stop us from putting it in. It's just US copyright law being dumb. As I have posted elsewhere, we only distribute things that are legal to distribute, and then we only put DFSG free bits into Debian. This package is not, as far as I can tell, either illegal to distribute, or DFSG non-free. No, that doesn't work. There's some base level of stuff that's so unlawful we don't include it because it would cut off far too much of the userbase (or cause them to commit illegal acts). Enforced patents or situations where taking advantage of the freedoms outlined in the DFSG are two of them. Would you have Debian include child pornography if it was DFSG-free and someone wanted to maintain it, and it was legal in their country? Arguing from a false premise, I've answered this above. We need to decide what statutes if any this program could violate if Cool, for all the jurisdiction, it'll probably take 10 lawyers for every DD. Or we could use common sense. My common sense tells me this package is not illegal to distribute. In bad taste, but not illegal. distributed, and if the risks of alienating/denying that portion of users (in this case, people under 18/21 in various countries Debian is currently ok in) are worth it. And how do we find who we are alienating? Oh, I know: lets have a GR. Don't put words in my mouth. I hate GRs. That, unfortunately, may be the only recourse you have, if this thing ever gets packaged. manoj -- Rule of the Great: When people you greatly admire appear to be thinking deep thoughts, they probably are thinking about lunch. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:38:03AM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2004-12-01 18:23:47, schrieb sean finney: then don't give your daughter sudo privileges on your debian machines, and she can't install it! :) Too late... She is 13 and Administrator already... Had learned very fast how to 'rm -rf /' and reinstall it alone. Really, she's 13, and you think it'd do any difference whatsoever to expose her to a pixelled image of a nude woman?! Sheesh. Either you've been shielding her completely (no TV, no advertisments, no magazines, no Internet), or you need a reality update. Worried parents should realise, that if their kids are old enough to administrate a Debian-machine to the level of installing their own packages, they've already been exposed to nudity. Lots of times. And they should probably worry more about the cases of non-nudity that are far more hurting, like all commercials with near-anorectic plastic-wonders on billboards, etc, from companies constantly trying to push for the image of the ideal woman as someone who is malnourished, probably will have backproblems before the age of 30 because of frontal overweight, and generally likes drinking alcohol in her underwear... Whether the package hotbabe is something that should be in Debian or not I leave up to others to decide, but personally I feel it to be on the same utility level as xeyes (that is, none, but probably amusing to some persons for a day or two). I can agree that putting the work erotic in the package description might not be ideal though; a.) I had a look at the pictures and I have a *very* hard time finding them even mildly erotic... b.) it'll definitely annoy people. But please wake me up when bible-kjv-text has been removed. Descriptions of rape, incest, murder, and about everything else, cannot possibly be good for children to read about, now can it?! As for hotbabe being pornographic? Nah. It does it's fair share to objectify women though, something that I find more worrying. Indeed, in a society where people were more equal (and more relaxed about sexuality), the porn industry would very likely both be sanitised and less prosperous. Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:34:06PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. [ snip something about child porn ] I for one do not think that the cause of including porn in Debian is worth it. How many people here are willing to go to jail so that we can include porn in main? Ok, Yes, if push comes to shove, I'll be happy to stand trial for the inclusion of hot-babe in main. Now, can we stop this stupid debate about something that is clearly a non-technical issue and get on with doing what we do best? Oh wait, this is d-d, isn't it... Regards, Neil McGovern -- A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li B345BDD3
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:53:41 +0100, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Quoting Fernanda Giroleti Weiden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Hi all, I read all the thread and I noted you are forgeting a main problem about this package. In my point of view: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. That would solve matters, yes. manoj -- Just when you thought you were winning the rat race, along comes a faster rat!! Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:47:11 +, Roger Leigh [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We need to decide what statutes if any this program could violate if distributed, and if the risks of alienating/denying that portion of users (in this case, people under 18/21 in various countries Debian is currently ok in) are worth it. Agreed. If Debian were seen to be distributing pornography, I think it could cause untold damage to our reputation, and much more potential legal problems than e.g. non-US ever did. We distribute purity-off, and fortunes-off, some of which content is deemed vulgar, and perhaps even pornographic. The feeling I get from the thread so far is that most developers don't consider this pornography, and so okay to distribute to minors. Or alternately, if it is, then we don't care about blocking distribution of Debian to people in the affected countries because they have bigger problems. Fine, then I have no problem including it, though I will lament the continual archive bloat for Yet Another System Monitor. FWIW, I don't think this should be included in Debian, either. I don't like pornography, I don't think we should be distributing pornography (even if it's cartoons), and we already have enough far too many system monitors. Sure, I find the package in bad taste. And we have many editors, we do not need to distribute vi, which I find offensive as well. But my opinions seem to carry little weight. To be honest, I'd rather more time was spent on better integrating and fixing the packages we have got, rather than trying to package absolutely every piece of free software out there. No one is stopping you, are they? I don't see a lot of value in packaging peoples my first shell script or minor variations on common programs. I'd like for the No one is forcing you to. bar for new packages to be set rather higher than it is at the moment, and if it doesn't add any value over existing equivalents or have much general use it doesn't get in. Umm, when I package new stuff, the effort that goes into that, and the fact that I am signing up to fix bugs, etc, is an indication that I think there is value added by that package. manoj -- Q: What do Winnie the Pooh and John the Baptist have in common? A: The same middle name. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 06:18:35PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:01:06AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Then, Disk 1 (which is very full-featured, after all) can be passed out where ever and to who ever, without any fear of possible problems. Hard-coding a list of unacceptable packages into the CD building scripts is a waste of time, because the location of a package on a CD set is primarily determined by its importance to the system and by its popularity. Most of these packages are in danger of ending up on the first CD any time soon -- and, if they were, why should we be overriding the overwhelming preferences expressed by our users just to pander to the childish sensibilities of people who *aren't* our users? Even worse with dvd images where nearly everything is on disc1. Are you kidding ? disc 2 is almost as big as disc 1. And with 2 discs, you get no source, this is ridiculous. We should take the advantage of the space available on a DVD to provide binary AND source of the packages we put on a DVD. Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:19 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:46:18 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Put such possibly controversial matter in contrib? No. Contrib is meant for things that depend on stuff that is not free, Ok. and is not a dumping ground for stuff yuu do not like. I think hot-babe is funny. Just wouldn't want the kids to see it. Is contrib on disk 1? If not, then at least disk 1 would be legal anywhere. I think it is perfectly legal to sell disk 1 -- like it is to sell even explicitly pornographic material. In most (probably all) of the US, porn magazines can be sold anywhere, but must be either behind the counter or securely wrapped in opaque plastic so that J Random Ten Year Old can't start thumbing through it at the magazine rack. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Peace, in international affairs, is a period of cheating between two periods of fighting. Ambrose Bierce signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:53 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:09:48 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If my wife saw my son with these pictures on a disk that I gave him, she'd take a frying pan and beat me dead. I am sure I would say the same about the bible. Hard enough to raise a child without false gods being preached at to them from the debian cd. Yes. Also, all them games of chance should not be there either. A game of chance without money involved is just a game. Nor all the violent games. No killing of hordes of orcs. orcs were once elves, you know. Are there any such FPS' in Debian? nethack is there, but the violence is imagined, not in your face. Disk 1, at least, should be able to be given to anyone on the planet with a computer, without worry of any legal, spousal (or parental, for that matter) grief. oboy. can we get rid of vi from disk 1 then? finally? That's funny, but you know what I mean. Let him find girlie pictures on his own. So, you would encourage him to search the wilds of the internet, rather than some tame cartoons in hot-babe? weird. Encourage? No. But when he gets old enough to be interested in girls, and especially naked girls, he's going to do it on his own. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. The President has kept all the promises he intended to keep. George Stephanopolous signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Quoting Manoj Srivastava ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. Sure. I won't even have to go over it. This does not prevent me saying what I personnally think is not a good idea. And sometimes imagine that doing so may change some people's way of seeing things...a small brick in a giant wall, maybe.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:36, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:23:21 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 17:55, Manoj Srivastava wrote: And how do we find who we are alienating? Oh, I know: lets have a GR. Don't put words in my mouth. I hate GRs. That, unfortunately, may be the only recourse you have, if this thing ever gets packaged. You seem to be under the false impression I am vehemently against packaging hot-babe. In reality, I only wanted people to consider the legal (rather than ethical) consequences. Early in the thread the conversation was veering off in stupid directions about whether or not it was sexist or whether or not we want 13 year olds seeing it; I wanted to get it off of that. Since it seems that at least some people (such as yourself) have considered it as a legal issue and think it not a problem, I am fine supporting its entry into main, as I have stated elsewhere in this thread. I am open to a common sense resolution of the issue -- provided people are actually addressing the issue (which the vast majority of participates in this thread are not). This will be my last post on this topic; it's wasted too much of everyone's time already. -- Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 16:07 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:35:04 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 21:23 -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 08:51:55PM +0100, Alexander Schmehl wrote: I'm not sure, how »pornography« is defined in the US and I really didn't intend to join your nice discussion, but could you please keep in mind, that it just show rough pixely pictures of a drawn woman? The problem with pornography in the US is that it isn't defined. It's officially I'll know it when I see it. Tread carefully. Add to that, contributing to the delinquency of a minor if the disk gets in the hand of a juvenile (the younger the better) and the prosecutor is up for re-election or has further political political ambitions. Same goes for gampling software, As I mentioned in another post, gambling requires money. AFAICT, no games in Debian *require* money. Thus, no gambling. and violent games. Or, in some locales, anything that promotes free speech or religion. anything that promotes free speech is pretty vague, but, for example, the PRC might not allow crypto s/w. Thus, maybe non-US may need to be renamed non-PRC? As for violent games religion, the question *does* need to be asked: how far will D-Ds bend their mostly libertarian/Leftist views in order to ensure that Debian *disks* can be possessed in as much of the world as possible? -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Spit in one hand, and wish for peace in the other. Guess which is more effective... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 23:13 +, Will Newton wrote: On Wednesday 01 Dec 2004 11:15, Ron Johnson wrote: Well, guess what? I live in the American South, and I'd like to give away disks to young geeks and wannabees without having to worry about whether his/her parents or teacher would wig out. Subjective. Legal issues are one thing, subjectively offensive stuff is another. No. Everywhere (or just about everywhere) in the US, it is illegal to give porn to a minor. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. World peace, like community peace, does not require that each man love his neighbor -- it requires only that they live together with mutual tolerance, submitting their disputes to a just and peaceful settlement. John F Kennedy signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 16:21, Ron Johnson wrote: anything that promotes free speech is pretty vague, but, for example, the PRC might not allow crypto s/w. Thus, maybe non-US may need to be renamed non-PRC? They do allow crypto s/w, AFAIK. At least none of my friends got detained yet. :o) Cheers Arne -- Arne Gtje () [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Spam catcher. Address might change in future!) PGP/GnuPG key: 1024D/685D1E8C Fingerprint: 2056 F6B7 DEA8 B478 311F 1C34 6E9F D06E 685D 1E8C Key available at wwwkeys.pgp.net. Encrypted e-mail preferred. pgp6dDp2x9uZh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:23 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:08:59 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: However, pornography causes significant legal problems in the US, and probably moreso in many other countries. If I give a Debian CD containing this software to a minor, am I distributing pornography? Hmm. I see pictures of nudes by Raphael in some of the national geographic magazines -- and there is nudity in the pictures of the sistine chapel. The old testament of the bible talks about various and sundry unsavoury things, and yet it is given to children even in churches. Let us not get hysterical here. Ok, let's look at case law: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?obscenityEnforcement/obscporn.htm That a reasonable person would find that the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political and scientific value. Examples of 'hardcore sexual conduct' that an obscenity law could include for regulation under the second prong of the test are patently offensive representations or descriptions of: - Ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated - Masturbation, lewd exhibition of the genitals, excretory functions, and sadomasochistic abuse. Note the lewd exhibition of the genitals. Thus, neither the Raphaels nor the Sistine Chapel would be consid- ered nudes by any jurisdiction in the country. But the nudy cartoons would, especially in the hand of a minor. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Don't think of it as a flame, think of it as an argument that does 3d6 fire damage! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:54 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:57:56PM +0100, Milan P. Stanic wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:17:37PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: However, I'd be *highly* agitated if someone gave my daughter a CD-ROM with *any* nudy cartoons. I'd rather live with this risk than with less freedom. only in a free society can we have this debate. If there exists societies that limit peoples freedom, why should we strive to limit peoples freedom. If the Debian project contains things are forbidden in other societies because they are less free, then we should be the example. Yes, but Debian can't be an example to them if they don't have it in the 1st place. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Why do so few (American) parents teach manners to their Children anymore? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 16:29 +0900, Mike Hommey wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:34:06PM -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [... nonsense ...] Where did you see someone asking for inclusion of child porn ? John was taking Manoj's reasoning to the limit. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. If 1/2 of all US marriages end in divorce, and there are a good number of 3rd, 4th, etc marriages, then more than 1/2 of all 1st marriages will be permanent. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:30 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:06 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. [snip] If not, then your arguments about it being impossible to set a line are moot. Rubbish. We set the line at illegal content, and by that criteria, this is not illegal to distribute, and hence hot-babe is in. Yes, it is. http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?obscenityEnforcement/obscporn.htm lewd exhibition of the genitals [snip] Have you any proof the content is illegal to distribute? Seems like it has been up and around for a while. Indeed, material even worse than that is present on web sitres situated in the US. Seems to me that this is mere FUD, trying to prevent expression of artistry you are offended by. See above. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Don't tell me peace has broken out. Bertolt Brecht signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:44:22 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:30 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:06 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. [snip] If not, then your arguments about it being impossible to set a line are moot. Rubbish. We set the line at illegal content, and by that criteria, this is not illegal to distribute, and hence hot-babe is in. Yes, it is. Rubbish. Goes to show a little knowledge is dangerous. http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?obscenityEnforcement/obscporn.htm lewd exhibition of the genitals And quoting out of context as well. For something to be obscene it must be shown that the average person, applying contemporary community standards and viewing the material as a whole, would find (1) that the work appeals predominantly to prurient interest; (2) that it depicts or describes sexual conduct in a patently offensive way; and (3) that it lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. Hmm. ok. The first test to be applied, therefore, in determining whether given material is obscene, is whether the predominant theme or purpose of the material, when viewed as a whole and not part by part, and when considered in relation to the intended and probable recipients, is an appeal to the prurient interest of the average person of the community as a whole, or the prurient interest of members of a deviant sexual group, as the case might be. The predominant theme or purpose of the material, when viewed as a whole, means the main or principal thrust of the material when assessed in its entirety and on the basis of its total effect, and not on the basis of incidental themes or isolated passages or sequences. The principla thrust seems to be to tell me if the CPU is loaded or not -- and, incidentally, show me a cartoon figure in a way which is demeaning to women. I really did not find the work erotic. The second test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether it depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct such as ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated; masturbation; excretory functions; or lewd exhibition of the genitals measured against whether the material is patently offensive by contemporary community standards; that is, whether it so exceeds the generally accepted limits of candor as to be clearly offensive. Umm. exceeds the generally accepted limits of candor as to be clearly offensive? In this day and age, considering the stuff I can see on prime time television? I think this is highly debatable. Contemporary community standards, as stated before, are those established by what is generally accepted in the community as a whole; The internet community that Debian is apart of would consider this fairly tame, considering what a mistyped search engine address seems to pop up on the screen. The third test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether the material, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. An item may have serious value in one or more of these areas even though it portrays explicit sexual conduct. Hmm. Does it lack artistic value? I dummo. The artist seems to have a lot of material that is deemed art. I am not sure the current image is absolutely without merit when it comes to artistic value -- there are things in the MOMA that have deserved the lable less, in my opinion. See above. Yup. Goes a long way to convince me that I can't trust your judgement. manoj -- I owe, I owe, It's off to work I go... Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:40:47 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 16:29 +0900, Mike Hommey wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:34:06PM -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [... nonsense ...] Where did you see someone asking for inclusion of child porn ? John was taking Manoj's reasoning to the limit. Yup. Arguing by the extremes, while intriguing to some, is extremely jejune. manoj -- I HATE arbitrary limits, especially when they're small. Stephen Savitzky Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:35:39 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:23 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:08:59 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: However, pornography causes significant legal problems in the US, and probably moreso in many other countries. If I give a Debian CD containing this software to a minor, am I distributing pornography? Hmm. I see pictures of nudes by Raphael in some of the national geographic magazines -- and there is nudity in the pictures of the sistine chapel. The old testament of the bible talks about various and sundry unsavoury things, and yet it is given to children even in churches. Let us not get hysterical here. Ok, let's look at case law: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?obscenityEnforcement/obscporn.htm That a reasonable person would find that the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political and scientific value. Examples of 'hardcore sexual conduct' that an obscenity law could include for regulation under the second prong of the test are patently offensive representations or descriptions of: - Ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated - Masturbation, lewd exhibition of the genitals, excretory functions, and sadomasochistic abuse. Note the lewd exhibition of the genitals. The critical term is lewd. Artistic display of the genitals is fine. Thus, neither the Raphaels nor the Sistine Chapel would be consid- ered nudes by any jurisdiction in the country. Why, because the display of the genitals is not lewd? But the nudy cartoons would, especially in the hand of a minor. As far as I know, we are not selling to minors. There are tings in Debian already that may not be suitable material for minors in the first place. manoj -- There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats. Albert Schweitzer Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 02:44:22AM -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: lewd exhibition of the genitals genitals: A sex organ, or primary sexual characteristic, narrowly defined, is any of those parts of the body (which are not always bodily organs according to the strict definition) which are involved in sexual reproduction and constitute the reproductive system in an complex organism; namely: * Male: penis (notably the glans and its covering the foreskin), testicles, scrotum, prostate, seminal vesicles, epididymis, Cowper's glands * Female: vulva (notably the clitoris and its covering the clitoral hood), vagina (notably the cervix), labia, uterus, Fallopian tubes, ovaries, Skene's glands, Bartholin's glands. Now you have to tell me where you see genitals in hot-babe... I barely see pubic hair. Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 11:32:18PM +, Will Newton wrote: On Wednesday 01 Dec 2004 21:35, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Right. We should not have games like quake, doom, or nethack,. since they promoite murder and mayhem and eating of corpses. So far so sarcastic. IMO if it can be demonstrated that distributing something is illegal we should think about not distributing it. And, as demonstrated elsewhere in the thread, whoops goes bible-kjv-text. We are not the EFF. If they or anyone else wants to fight for the No, we're not. We're also not the PTA or the moral police. right to look at cartoon tits then that's fine by me. We are trying to build an operating system. I think. Indeed. From that point of view, hotbabe is pretty meaningless. Then again, so is quake, doom, nethack, etc. Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 10:04:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that the best solution to many of the worlds problems would be to provide really cheap laptops and good net access (including satellite net access). The idea is that everyone in the world should be able to download whatever they like (with a few exceptions such as child porn). It's a great idea, and I hope it would work. But I'm wary of such technological determinism. In Europe, cheap printing led to a million presses printing sheets of whatever, with the result that there was a sudden huge broadening in thought, bringing in its wake the Refomation, the Enlightenment, and all kinds of good things to follow. In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact opposite; it provided the ability to mass-produce official versions of classic texts, to centralize the imperial bureaucracy more effectively, and so forth. Thomas Hi Thomas, the freedom of the press means that the people control the press. if the goverment control the press, then there is no such freedom. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
* Ron Johnson | Nor all the violent games. No killing of hordes of orcs. orcs | were once elves, you know. | | Are there any such FPS' in Debian? nethack is there, but the | violence is imagined, not in your face. lxdoom is in main. quake2 and -data are in contrib. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:45:25AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:53:41 +0100, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Quoting Fernanda Giroleti Weiden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Hi all, I read all the thread and I noted you are forgeting a main problem about this package. In my point of view: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. Hi Manoj, How would a bug report about 'this packages offends me because of $SOME_REASON' be handled?' about say vi? - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBruSYRp+kG4Nu//URAse4AJ92DQOYKAwD8gs9spFqpj6YLw+0dgCgjaqW r4ttI1CkaurrDqt1VMvhrTc= =njei -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 02:36:56AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:54 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:57:56PM +0100, Milan P. Stanic wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:17:37PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: However, I'd be *highly* agitated if someone gave my daughter a CD-ROM with *any* nudy cartoons. I'd rather live with this risk than with less freedom. only in a free society can we have this debate. If there exists societies that limit peoples freedom, why should we strive to limit peoples freedom. If the Debian project contains things are forbidden in other societies because they are less free, then we should be the example. Yes, but Debian can't be an example to them if they don't have it in the 1st place. Hi Ron, I have no objection to yet another CDD ... debian-buddist,debian-islamic,... All someone has to do is create the appropriate meta-package or jigdo text. Something like this would take little effort by the folks involved. kind of remnds me of something I heard about walmart on PBS. They have 'clean' versions of pop music created for their monoply^H^H^H^H^HStores. - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBrucURp+kG4Nu//URAqR6AJ9BBNpWVP9k2RDuDVl9n8i645If+ACdF7Lu YxdMs+M5YIKk6kVm+Qh4a6E= =gARc -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 10.36, Kevin Mark wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 10:04:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: In Europe, cheap printing led to [...] a sudden huge broadening in thought [...] In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact opposite; [...] centralize the imperial bureaucracy more effectively, and so forth. the freedom of the press means that the people control the press. if the goverment control the press, then there is no such freedom. Your point being? -- vbi -- Protect your privacy - encrypt your email: http://fortytwo.ch/gpg/intro pgpypCwpbWtCR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:04:06PM +0100, Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder wrote: On Thursday 02 December 2004 10.36, Kevin Mark wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 10:04:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: In Europe, cheap printing led to [...] a sudden huge broadening in thought [...] In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact opposite; [...] centralize the imperial bureaucracy more effectively, and so forth. the freedom of the press means that the people control the press. if the goverment control the press, then there is no such freedom. Your point being? -- vbi Hi vbi, TB said that cheap technology was used to promote democracy in Europe but was used to the opposite effect in China. But the point I was making was that price of the technology makes no difference if it is solely in the hands of the government. - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBrvlFRp+kG4Nu//URAmfjAJ9Dd23XzYXSvi8ZrX7frPfW0byUHwCglOE5 uJZM/XKWfXmEstlkXnhbdeY= =cqoW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
* Christian Perrier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041202 08:15]: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. Legal nitpicking is another issue, which I personnally do not consider the most important one, indeed. The package is currently sexist, in my opinion. I just hope that saying this loud enough will make the maintainers change their mind. If it does not, well the result will be another sexist thing in free software. I someday wish I had an opportunity to talk of this with Bruno Bellamy, by the way (the artist whose drawings are used in this package). His artwork (and good work) is widely used in the free software community in France and (personal opinion, still) may sometime ring this bell of sexism. I think you described the important issues quite well. Making a good distribution is more than just upload any package which you legally could. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Op wo, 01-12-2004 te 19:34 -0600, schreef John Goerzen: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. We have no need to. We can collectively make reasonable decisions without having to set up a constitional authority to do so. rotfl. Most of the time, we cannot even make reasonable /with/ our constitutional methods, let alone without them. -- EARTH smog | bricks AIR -- mud -- FIRE soda water | tequila WATER -- with thanks to fortune
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:19:48PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 09:06:18 +1100, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 03:30:24PM -0200, Everton da Silva Marques wrote: It's VERY oppressive to force hot-babe out of Debian because of personal feelings about nudity. It's pure anti-speech insanity leading the way to socialism. How about we leave it out because it's crap, then? From all accounts, it seems to be a well done piece of software -- just its choice of images is an issue. Really? To me it seems trivial and almost useless. Why bother linking the images with the system load? Just set up an applet to display porn and get on with it. Why stop at cartoons? Once it's themable, we should ship some photographs too. And don't worry about the load monitoring, let's just ship some porn for the sake of it. Call it test data for pornview or something. Hmm. I would like some Raphael budes, yes. and some studies by michelangelo too. Oh, you think that is not porn? I think calling the hot-babe package and images 'art' is a bit farfetched. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:13:51PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:34:34 +0100, Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I do not like to go to prison in Iran or may be killed because I have such application on one of my Desktops. The solution is to change iran, not try to change the rest of the world to bve implicit in the oppression. So if it is illegal to give the hot-babe images to minors, do you propose to change those laws also? Do you think that they may exist for good reasons? Including this package would seem to ultimately reduce our freedom to distribute the Debian OS (ie, to minors, as well as possibly to some parts of the world). I can't see how that is desirable. I think that including this package makes us look immature. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 07:53, Christian Perrier wrote: The package is currently sexist, in my opinion. I just hope that saying this loud enough will make the maintainers change their mind. If it does not, well the result will be another sexist thing in free software. LOL, the package is no more sexist than it is racist for only showing a person of _one_ colour. Unfortunatly there are not many transexual multicoloured people around to make nude pictures of.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Mike Hommey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 06:18:35PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:01:06AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Then, Disk 1 (which is very full-featured, after all) can be passed out where ever and to who ever, without any fear of possible problems. Hard-coding a list of unacceptable packages into the CD building scripts is a waste of time, because the location of a package on a CD set is primarily determined by its importance to the system and by its popularity. Most of these packages are in danger of ending up on the first CD any time soon -- and, if they were, why should we be overriding the overwhelming preferences expressed by our users just to pander to the childish sensibilities of people who *aren't* our users? Even worse with dvd images where nearly everything is on disc1. Are you kidding ? disc 2 is almost as big as disc 1. And with 2 discs, you get no source, this is ridiculous. We should take the advantage of the space available on a DVD to provide binary AND source of the packages we put on a DVD. Mike You have substantially more on the first dvd than the first cd. Having it on the second dvd would be like moving it to the 6th or 7th cd. Since ordering is done by popcon and due to all this talk hot-babe probably ends up high enough to be on the first dvd. MfG Goswin
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 02:13:25AM -0600, Joe Wreschnig wrote: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:36, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:23:21 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 17:55, Manoj Srivastava wrote: And how do we find who we are alienating? Oh, I know: lets have a GR. Don't put words in my mouth. I hate GRs. That, unfortunately, may be the only recourse you have, if this thing ever gets packaged. You seem to be under the false impression I am vehemently against packaging hot-babe. In reality, I only wanted people to consider the legal (rather than ethical) consequences. Early in the thread the conversation was veering off in stupid directions about whether or not it was sexist or whether or not we want 13 year olds seeing it; I wanted to get it off of that. Since it seems that at least some people (such as yourself) have considered it as a legal issue and think it not a problem, I am fine supporting its entry into main, as I have stated elsewhere in this thread. I am open to a common sense resolution of the issue -- provided people are actually addressing the issue (which the vast majority of participates in this thread are not). This will be my last post on this topic; it's wasted too much of everyone's time already. The only thing this thread has succeeded in doing for me is: a) making me go download, compile and run it b) adjust the threshold so I have to work for my reward c) thinking, wow, this is cool, i wish it was debianized so i didn't have to do step a P. --
