Bug#451367: installation-reports: Does not allow ethernet over firewire
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Frans Pop wrote: On Thursday 15 November 2007, you wrote: the new stack is very promising, we will reconsider later if no eth1394 shows up, for now that's just a minor regression. No, that is not a minor regression. Half the functionality of the old drivers is missing! eth1394 is missing that is by far the less used firewire driver. the switch to the juju stack allowed to close a huge nr. of bugs. the old stack is just not supportable and never was, plus is a security nightmare. ieee1394 in fact deserves the Kbuild variable BROKEN. the new stack is aiming for feature parity, but with interface incompatibility, so the various firewire userland needs to pick up the switch. the new stack although more compact is already more stable. What discussion? I googled for it and after skimming through about 20 pages I still have not found it. What I _did_ find is several other reports of problems with the new stack, two of which complain about missing Ethernet support: - http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2007/10/msg00414.html - http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=441206 - http://www.debianhelp.org/node/9328 i consider that smallish to the *huge* usability improvement on not having a strange firewire ethernet device to choose for your network connectivity in d-i. so no tears for it. So Google does not help. Let's check the changelog: linux-2.6 (2.6.22~rc5-1~experimental.1) experimental; urgency=low * Enable the new firewire stack labeled to be more simple and robust. -- Bastian Blank [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:49:52 +0200 Strange. No mention of the fact that the new stack is [1]: - experimental - not recommended for distributions by its upstream developers - has a _major_ regression in it's lack of Ethernet support - lacks userspace integration - has had only limited testing if i'm wrong, we can still enable both and start blacklisting the bad oldie one in m-i-t early enough. RH did rewrite the stack and it's main upstream developer ships it already enabled in 2 major releases fedora 7 and 8. juju has already nicely improved since the 2.6.22 inclusion, so still looks for the most promising option for the lenny release. -- maks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#451367: installation-reports: Does not allow ethernet over firewire
Hello, On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 08:01:40PM +0100, maximilian attems wrote: eth1394 is missing that is by far the less used firewire driver. But for some people the driver used early in the installation (where a kernel rebuild is not very convenient). the switch to the juju stack allowed to close a huge nr. of bugs. the old stack is just not supportable and never was, plus is a security nightmare. ieee1394 in fact deserves the Kbuild variable BROKEN. Well, it worked fine for me, except that the version from 2.4 could not interoperate with the version from 2.6. The only minor oddity was that sometimes the logs were flooded with certain warnings (I can dig them out if necessary). i consider that smallish to the *huge* usability improvement on not having a strange firewire ethernet device to choose for your network connectivity in d-i. so no tears for it. Well, I cannot really argue with you on technical merits, but then it was one of the (long) supported options for d-i, so please *document* it properly. I would've started out with an Etch image, if I had known this regression. RH did rewrite the stack and it's main upstream developer ships it already enabled in 2 major releases fedora 7 and 8. juju has already nicely improved since the 2.6.22 inclusion, so still looks for the most promising option for the lenny release. It would be great if also eth1394 would reappear in the new stack, especially since the original developer is an @debian.org person. Greetings Helge -- Dr. Helge Kreutzmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php 64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred Help keep free software libre: http://www.ffii.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#451367: installation-reports: Does not allow ethernet over firewire
On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 08:01:40PM +0100, maximilian attems wrote: What discussion? I googled for it and after skimming through about 20 pages I still have not found it. What I _did_ find is several other reports of problems with the new stack, two of which complain about missing Ethernet support: - http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2007/10/msg00414.html - http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=441206 - http://www.debianhelp.org/node/9328 i consider that smallish to the *huge* usability improvement on not having a strange firewire ethernet device to choose for your network connectivity in d-i. so no tears for it. The device was listed in d-i because people were using it. This thread is here because they can no longer do so. It's rather rude of you to declare that it's ok for the kernel team to fix usability issues in the installer by removing functionality from the kernel. I understand the technical arguments regarding the replacement of the stack, and have no informed position on this bigger issue (though it seems that plenty of people have been using the previous stack without complaint?), but that doesn't make it ok that functionality has been dropped, whether or not you happen to like that functionality. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#451367: installation-reports: Does not allow ethernet over firewire
On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 08:32:44PM +0100, Helge Kreutzmann wrote: It would be great if also eth1394 would reappear in the new stack, especially since the original developer is an @debian.org person. you seem to have a strange confidence in someone, whose stack went so badly down the road, but yeah an upstream push for firewire juju eth1394 is best for all. -- maks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#451367: installation-reports: Does not allow ethernet over firewire
On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 11:50:58AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote: The device was listed in d-i because people were using it. This thread is here because they can no longer do so. It's rather rude of you to declare that it's ok for the kernel team to fix usability issues in the installer by removing functionality from the kernel. as i mentioned on the mail announcing the switch eth1394 might go missing for a while, if it doesn't reappear soon enough for lenny, the m-i-t blacklisting of the old stack seems an easy way to get it back. and yes i have seen quite a lot of people stumble on that dialogue. I understand the technical arguments regarding the replacement of the stack, and have no informed position on this bigger issue (though it seems that plenty of people have been using the previous stack without complaint?), but that doesn't make it ok that functionality has been dropped, whether or not you happen to like that functionality. plenty of people have left *lots* of bug reports on ieee1394. it is trivialy easy to crash any box as user with it. it's buggyness was the reason for rh to sponsor the rewrite. also it's sysfs device name support is quite lacking afair. -- maks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#451367: installation-reports: Does not allow ethernet over firewire
Hello, On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 05:21:36PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote: Hmm. One more try. Let's check the mailing list for June. Ah, a hit! http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2007/06/msg00079.html No discussion though (at least, I don't usually call a single message a discussion). Not all that surprising that no users spoke up since the message is only to the kernel list, which is a _developer_ list. I'd say the lack of response is a better indication of the fact that other kernel developers did not really care about the change than about what users think of it. Yes, it would have been nice if this issue could've been discussed, especially since it was perfectly working and if user are confused then the interface (i.e. d-i) should be improved and not simply the functionality be dropped (more precisely: this issue should've been brought up in a bug report). [1] http://wiki.linux1394.org/JujuMigration Well, I don't know if there is a possibility for the kernel, but this looks like experimental stuff, e.g.: Stability issues of the storage device driver firewire-sbp2 I'm glad that I do not use storage currently via firewire Well, if you like me to test later versions feel free to contact me. I routinely connect ppc-amd64 via firewire (of course using the old stack). Greetings Helge -- Dr. Helge Kreutzmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php 64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred Help keep free software libre: http://www.ffii.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#451367: installation-reports: Does not allow ethernet over firewire
Frans Pop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Moving thread to cloned BR.) On Thursday 15 November 2007, you wrote: the new stack is very promising, we will reconsider later if no eth1394 shows up, for now that's just a minor regression. No, that is not a minor regression. Half the functionality of the old drivers is missing! Maks, please revert it until it has this regression solved. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#451367: installation-reports: Does not allow ethernet over firewire
(Moving thread to cloned BR.) On Thursday 15 November 2007, you wrote: the new stack is very promising, we will reconsider later if no eth1394 shows up, for now that's just a minor regression. No, that is not a minor regression. Half the functionality of the old drivers is missing! see discussions on d-kernel, nobody spoke up when the anncouncement about missing eth1394 was declared. What discussion? I googled for it and after skimming through about 20 pages I still have not found it. What I _did_ find is several other reports of problems with the new stack, two of which complain about missing Ethernet support: - http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2007/10/msg00414.html - http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=441206 - http://www.debianhelp.org/node/9328 So Google does not help. Let's check the changelog: linux-2.6 (2.6.22~rc5-1~experimental.1) experimental; urgency=low * Enable the new firewire stack labeled to be more simple and robust. -- Bastian Blank [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:49:52 +0200 Strange. No mention of the fact that the new stack is [1]: - experimental - not recommended for distributions by its upstream developers - has a _major_ regression in it's lack of Ethernet support - lacks userspace integration - has had only limited testing Hmm. One more try. Let's check the mailing list for June. Ah, a hit! http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2007/06/msg00079.html No discussion though (at least, I don't usually call a single message a discussion). Not all that surprising that no users spoke up since the message is only to the kernel list, which is a _developer_ list. I'd say the lack of response is a better indication of the fact that other kernel developers did not really care about the change than about what users think of it. What you are forgetting is that unstable kernels also migrate to testing and that Debian has been promoting testing as an alternative to stable for users who want a more current desktop, but don't want to deal with the frequent breakage of packages in unstable. Thanks for confirming that the kernel team cares more about the latest and greatest upstream than about its users. Debian unstable and testing are _not_ testbeds for upstream development! [1] http://wiki.linux1394.org/JujuMigration -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
